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Time and Causality


LynnS

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42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Greetings LongRider!  I don't think we've met on the forums before but you are very welcome here.  The OP has morphed to a number of different subjects that are of interest. 

Thanks!   I’m late to the party but would like to mention in the early pages of this thread there were mentions of ravens. That reminded me of an old thread about Mormont’s raven.   

Interesting and fun read that teased out many small details about the raven, its behavior and verbalizations.
Anyway, on to page six.  

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@Melifeather

Getting back into the Harrenhal replay, I think I found two wolfs hiding behind the wayns in TWOW Alayne I

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Ser Roland was the oldest of the three, though no more than five-and-twenty. He was taller and more muscular than Ser Wallace, but both were long-faced and lantern-jawed, with stringy brown hair and pinched noses. Horsefaced and homely, Alayne thought.

One is wild and one is quiet (he stutters)

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After that Ser Roland Waynwood swept her up and made her laugh with mocking comments about half the other knights in the hall. His uncle Wallace took a turn as well and tried to do the same, but the words would not come.

 

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8 hours ago, LongRider said:

Interesting and fun read that teased out many small details about the raven, its behavior and verbalizations.
Anyway, on to page six.  

As I'm reading Redriver's exploration, some thoughts come to mind...

Who is skinchanging the bird to keep track of the Night's Watch?  The bird is privy to everything that goes on in the LC's chambers. Benjen, Bloodraven and I would add Leaf.  Whoever is using the bird must know the common tongue.  When Bran first goes into the weirnet; she asks him what he had seen.  We are also told that ravens and crows have had many or multiple riders.  So Mormont's bird might be used by several characters including BR and later by Bran. 

The interpretation that Mormont's raven is dismissive of crows, could mean that BR is not the 3EC.

I agree that the bird is instructing Jon at various times.

Some discussion about the Skirling Pass here as well, so many years ago. 

All the hidden contents stuff!  It's like going back in time! :D

The bird's behavior is also curious:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"Good," Mormont said. "We've seen the dead come back, you and me, and it's not something I care to see again." He ate the egg in two bites and flicked a bit of shell out from between his teeth. "Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you'll find in all the Night's Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior, or do you carry a grumkin in your pocket to magic up your sword?"

Jon had no answer for him. The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell. Pushing his beak through the hole, he pulled out morsels of white and yoke.

 And this:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran II

That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

 

An interesting read so far.

It's curious that Mormont mentions grumkins.  We know from Arya and Old Nan's tales, that grumkins are Faceless Men who give you three wishes.  Mormont's bird seems to be acting out the Crow pecking out Bran's 3rd eye.  This makes me suspicious that the 3EC is Arya who will become a grumkin herself some time in the future. 

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On second thought, I'm coming to the conclusion that the 3EC isn't Bloodraven.  He is the go to choice, but I think it's the least obvious choice.  I think it's actually Leaf.  Leaf went out into the world 200 years past.  So she tells Bran, so she could learn the common tongue.  She did this so she could speak to the Bran-boy. 

I'm going to add, so she could also speak to Brynden Rivers.  Bran must undergo a test, he must learn to fly or die or become impaled on a spear of ice.  BR must have passed the same test and who is the 3EC?  It's not BR.

It's the COTF who are most invested in getting Bran beyond the Wall and into a weirwood throne.  His third eye has to be opened to become a greenseer.  It makes sense to me that the crow in his dream would be Leaf.  When he first sees Leaf, for a moment, he mistakes her for Arya.

When he comes out of his coma dream, for a moment he thinks the crow is a woman, someone he knows from Winterfell.  The crow screams in fear.  She is almost unmasked,  Bran can't know the identity of the 3EC.  When he wakes he happens to be facing in the direction of a serving woman and thinks it is her.

In this passage, it is Leaf who is giving Bran instruction, not BR. When all the light is gone, he hears the voice of the 3EC:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

 

It also makes sense that Leaf is using Mormont's Raven to keep tabs on Mormont and Jon initially.  Then perhaps Bran uses the raven in Jon's wolf dream of the moon chasing him.  It's Mormont's Raven who is party to the dream and wakes Jon.   

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8 hours ago, Tucu said:

@Melifeather

Getting back into the Harrenhal replay, I think I found two wolfs hiding behind the wayns in TWOW Alayne I

One is wild and one is quiet (he stutters)

 

I’ll have to review the Waynwoods to see what your getting at. Are there two or three Waynwoods and how are they related? How do you see two of them as wolves?

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22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I’ll have to review the Waynwoods to see what your getting at. Are there two or three Waynwoods and how are they related? How do you see two of them as wolves?

These two have the Stark look

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Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface

and likely Stark blood via the daugther of Jocelyn Stark that married a Waynwood.

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"You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

and they fit the role of the wild wolf and the quiet wolf in Jojen's tale.

 

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20 hours ago, Tucu said:

These two have the Stark look

and likely Stark blood via the daugther of Jocelyn Stark that married a Waynwood.

and they fit the role of the wild wolf and the quiet wolf in Jojen's tale.

 

Oh my! You are so right! The complete replay of the Harrenhal tourney is set to unfold starting with Alayne chapter one!  

Some of the characters appear to be serving double duty. For example Sweetrobin/Lord Robert is a combo of King Aerys and Rhaegar while Harry the Heir is the stand-in for Robert Baratheon. Sweetrobin's frail health and paranoia is an exaggeration of King Aerys, and his line about Harry the Heir pretending to love him, but wanting his "father's castle" is so ironic and a nod to Robert Baratheon and maybe even Rhaegar! 

We might view "Alayne" as Ashara and Sansa as Lyanna which ironically mirrors what I've said in the past about Ashara and Lyanna being like sisters in the books. Lollys and Falyse Stokeworth are another pairing that mirror Ashara and Lyanna. I've previously pointed out that Lollys sister's name "Falyse" looks like it could be pronounced "false-ee" which makes me think of "false sister". "False-ee" not only describes Ashara's and Lyanna's un-related sisterhood, but it points to Sansa's false identity as Alayne.

"Alayne" mirrors Lollys in this chapter, specifically when she refers to her "father" Petyr as being "upjumped and ambitious" which is exactly what the Kings Landing court thinks of Bronn. Sweetrobin wants to marry Alayne, but when she explains why her bastard/baseborn position makes that impossible, he switches to suggesting she remain his mistress. Alayne's response is to ask Sweetrobin if he would "dishonor" her this way, which is a repeat of Ashara's dishonoring at Harrenhal.

Myranda and Alayne come upon two knights fighting with blunted practice swords. I'm not sure if this is supposed to represent Arya and Mycah the butcher's boy or a replay of the three squires that were picking on Howland. Sansa notes the attacker's shield bore a sigil with three ravens in flight each clutching a red heart in its claws and she "knew right then how the fight would end". I'm leaning towards Arya and Mycah, because when the bigger knight fell to the ground and his squire removed his bloody helm, Sansa thought that if the "swords had not been blunted, there would be brains as well" - which I think points to Mycha and Sandor Clegane all at the same time.

I would love to break down the entire Alayne chapter to point out all of the repeats, but you've probably already found them too since you've already pointed out the Waynwood's mirror to Brandon and Ned. I suspect Myranda is also repeating Lyanna in this chapter since she has her eyes on Harry the Heir as well as Alayne. Shadrich is set to play the part of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, except he won't enter the tourney. He has already stated that he "saves his valor for the battlefield".

I've fleshed out your comparison of the Waynwoods to Brandon and Ned as a post in my thread that examine's Shadrich's parallel to Howland and Arya. You can read my thoughts here.

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On 11/28/2020 at 4:36 AM, Tucu said:

Getting back into the Harrenhal replay, I think I found two wolfs hiding behind the wayns in TWOW Alayne I

This is a really good insight.

Your discovery might also help to get to the bottom of any Dayne / Payne / Reyne / Wayn wordplay that may be intended.

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Isn't it funny how one person's comment can cause an entire "branch of twigs" to sprout from the main tree? After Tucu pointed out that the Waynwoods were a parallel to the wild wolf Brandon and quiet wolf Ned, I've identified additional parallels in threes like I did in my Shadrich OP, except this time the parallel events are occurring around Howland, Arya, and Shadrich.

H: Lyanna came upon three squires bullying Howland.
A: Joffrey and Sansa came upon Arya and Mycah practicing with swords.
S: Alayne bumped into Shadrich after watching two knights practice with tourney swords.

H: Ashara meets three men. Brandon approaches Ashara and smooths the way for Ned (Jon Arryn’s ward), but I think Ashara has eyes for Robert Baratheon.
A: Sansa meets three men on her way to ride with Cersei in the wheelhouse. The Kingsguard Barristan Selmy and Renly Baratheon in his green armor and antlered helm. The part of the “ward” is played by Sandor Clegane. I see him in this role, because he is serving as a knight, but not in an official capacity. He refuses to be called a knight and is an outsider just as a ward would be.
S: Alayne meets three men. Two Stark relatives, Roland and Wallace Waynwood, and their family’s ward, Harry the Heir.

H: Ashara dances with many men during the tourney.
A: Sansa uses her courtesy to “dance”. She wants to play her part as a noble lady, but she’s embarrassed by her un-ladylike sister. Arya refuses to “dance” the part of a noble lady. Her choice of “dance” is a much more dangerous game. She puts Mycah at risk by allowing him to practice with a real sword. 
S: Alayne “dances” around the Vale greeting newcomers to the tourney, because Sweetrobin won’t get out of bed. 

H: Robert Baratheon competes in the melee. Howland prays for a way to win and is possibly the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
A: Nymeria bites Joffrey and Arya throws his sword in the Trident. Arya hides in the “hedges” and her “tourney” becomes a real fight/flight for her life.
S: Alayne suggests that Shadrich compete in the melee since he is a hedge knight. Shadrich won’t compete as he saves his valor for the battlefield.

H: After the tourney, Lyanna ran from the searchers for the Knight of the Laughing Tree.
A: Arya ran from the searchers looking to find her and shooed Nymeria away before she could be captured. Sansa loses Lady’s life after Arya is found.
S: Myranda challenges Alayne to a footrace to the gate to greet the Waynwoods. For just a little while, while she ran, Alayne forgot who she was and where and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell. Myranda lost her cloak along the way, and I wonder if this is intended to parallel Sansa’s loss of her wolf?

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6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Oh my! You are so right! The complete replay of the Harrenhal tourney is set to unfold starting with Alayne chapter one!  

Some of the characters appear to be serving double duty. For example Sweetrobin/Lord Robert is a combo of King Aerys and Rhaegar while Harry the Heir is the stand-in for Robert Baratheon. Sweetrobin's frail health and paranoia is an exaggeration of King Aerys, and his line about Harry the Heir pretending to love him, but wanting his "father's castle" is so ironic and a nod to Robert Baratheon and maybe even Rhaegar! 

We might view "Alayne" as Ashara and Sansa as Lyanna which ironically mirrors what I've said in the past about Ashara and Lyanna being like sisters in the books. Lollys and Falyse Stokeworth are another pairing that mirror Ashara and Lyanna. I've previously pointed out that Lollys sister's name "Falyse" looks like it could be pronounced "false-ee" which makes me think of "false sister". "False-ee" not only describes Ashara's and Lyanna's un-related sisterhood, but it points to Sansa's false identity as Alayne.

"Alayne" mirrors Lollys in this chapter, specifically when she refers to her "father" Petyr as being "upjumped and ambitious" which is exactly what the Kings Landing court thinks of Bronn. Sweetrobin wants to marry Alayne, but when she explains why her bastard/baseborn position makes that impossible, he switches to suggesting she remain his mistress. Alayne's response is to ask Sweetrobin if he would "dishonor" her this way, which is a repeat of Ashara's dishonoring at Harrenhal.

Myranda and Alayne come upon two knights fighting with blunted practice swords. I'm not sure if this is supposed to represent Arya and Mycah the butcher's boy or a replay of the three squires that were picking on Howland. Sansa notes the attacker's shield bore a sigil with three ravens in flight each clutching a red heart in its claws and she "knew right then how the fight would end". I'm leaning towards Arya and Mycah, because when the bigger knight fell to the ground and his squire removed his bloody helm, Sansa thought that if the "swords had not been blunted, there would be brains as well" - which I think points to Mycha and Sandor Clegane all at the same time.

I would love to break down the entire Alayne chapter to point out all of the repeats, but you've probably already found them too since you've already pointed out the Waynwood's mirror to Brandon and Ned. I suspect Myranda is also repeating Lyanna in this chapter since she has her eyes on Harry the Heir as well as Alayne. Shadrich is set to play the part of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, except he won't enter the tourney. He has already stated that he "saves his valor for the battlefield".

I've fleshed out your comparison of the Waynwoods to Brandon and Ned as a post in my thread that examine's Shadrich's parallel to Howland and Arya. You can read my thoughts here.

I like the idea of Sansa playing both roles. For Harry the heir I am also split between Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar.

Littlefinger role is still not clear. As the Lord Protector of the Vale we could map him to the role of Protector of the Realm that was a title assigned multiple times in Westeros. The first one is that we know of is when a young Jaehaerys rebelled against Maegor and named Rogar Baratheon as Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. In GoT, Robert names Ned as Lord Protector of the Realm and Lord Regent on his deathbed. Not sure if we should be looking at Tywin as he was Aerys' Hand of the King for a long time or maybe at Rhaegar if he was planning to name himself as Aerys' regent.

One funny character that I would love to find a parallel is Ser Uther Shett:

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Horns sounded from atop the wall. “Too late,” Myranda said. “They’re here. We shall need to do the honors by ourselves.” She grinned. “Last one to the gate must marry Uther Shett.”

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Uther Shett appeared to pay her slimy compliments as he trod upon her feet

Who was the Uther Shett at Harrenhal? ;-)

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On 11/15/2020 at 5:51 AM, Melifeather said:

Going back to the Black Gate. It just struck me as a possibility that when Bran and company walked into the Black Gate’s mouth that they travelled into the past waded into a river/stream of time and were carried away

What the Black Gate makes me think of is an liminal space, which can be described as a portal or threshold.   In this series, there are many situations where liminal spaces are used, sometimes with a guide.  This starts right off with Arya in Game when she's chasing the old, one eyed black cat who leads her to up deep under the Red Keep.  Was the cat warged? Lots of speculation about that that includes Bloodraven, but I also think LynnS might have a good point here:

On 11/28/2020 at 2:40 AM, LynnS said:

The interpretation that Mormont's raven is dismissive of crows, could mean that BR is not the 3EC.

I would add that being dismissive of crows can have more than one meaning as the Black Brothers are often  called crows.  Am not convinced Leaf is the 3EC, it may be something else if not BR or Leaf, we might not have a definitive answer.  

Other portals are found at the Eyrie; the door Sansa goes through into a pure white world where she is so overcome she drops to her knees and loses time.  But that's not the only liminal space as we see at the Eyrie, the Moon Door where treachery changed Lysa's plan for Sansa and Lysa going through the portal created huge changes for Lysa, Sansa and LF, not to mention the singer.

Another possible liminal space was the tunnel under the burning barn during the attack on Yoren and his recruits by Ser Lorch and his men.  Arya, Gendry and others escape through the tunnel, a threshold to safety from that particular battle at least.  Lots of other liminal spaces, the doors to the HoBW for example  

While I don't see these spaces as changing time, more like offering other outcomes if one goes over or through the threshold.  If others have any thoughts of liminal spaces and going over their thresholds, I would love to hear them.

:)

 

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59 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Who was the Uther Shett at Harrenhal?

I don’t know -yet - but his name is an anagram (almost) for “true(th) tests”. His red hair and pimples may group him with other red haired, freckled and/or spotted characters that seem to get killed or disappear mysteriously like Cersei’s childhood friend Melara Heatherspoon, Arya’s friend Mycah the butcher’s boy, Wenda the White Fawn, Myrcella’s handmaiden Rosamund, and Arianne’s friend Spotted Sylvia.

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23 minutes ago, LongRider said:

What the Black Gate makes me think of is an liminal space, which can be described as a portal or threshold.   In this series, there are many situations where liminal spaces are used, sometimes with a guide.  This starts right off with Arya in Game when she's chasing the old, one eyed black cat who leads her to up deep under the Red Keep.  Was the cat warged? Lots of speculation about that that includes Bloodraven, but I also think LynnS might have a good point here:

I would add that being dismissive of crows can have more than one meaning as the Black Brothers are often  called crows.  Am not convinced Leaf is the 3EC, it may be something else if not BR or Leaf, we might not have a definitive answer.  

Other portals are found at the Eyrie; the door Sansa goes through into a pure white world where she is so overcome she drops to her knees and loses time.  But that's not the only liminal space as we see at the Eyrie, the Moon Door where treachery changed Lysa's plan for Sansa and Lysa going through the portal created huge changes for Lysa, Sansa and LF, not to mention the singer.

Another possible liminal space was the tunnel under the burning barn during the attack on Yoren and his recruits by Ser Lorch and his men.  Arya, Gendry and others escape through the tunnel, a threshold to safety from that particular battle at least.  Lots of other liminal spaces, the doors to the HoBW for example  

While I don't see these spaces as changing time, more like offering other outcomes if one goes over or through the threshold.  If others have any thoughts of liminal spaces and going over their thresholds, I would love to hear them.

:)

 

Stannis discusses some form of multi-verse with Davos:

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King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."

So does Pyat Pree with Dany:

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“By no means,” Pyat Pree said. “Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up. Always the door to your right. Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber.”

I can think of a couple of examples that feel like a multi-verse threshold was crossed. When Dany enters Mirri's tent Rhaego's future turns to dust. The dosh khaleen prophecy and Dany's visions about Rhaego are now from "days that never were".

When Bran and company hide in the crypts of Winterfell, Jojen' green dream about Reek flaying Bran and Rickon turns into a reality where Reek flays the two miller's boys.

 

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3 hours ago, LongRider said:

I would add that being dismissive of crows can have more than one meaning as the Black Brothers are often  called crows.  Am not convinced Leaf is the 3EC, it may be something else if not BR or Leaf, we might not have a definitive answer.  

I agree.  Bran's 3EC has fulfilled it's purpose and we may never know who or what uses this disguise.  Leaf appeals to me because I don't think the COTF are as passive as we have been led to believe or that BR is responsible for everything.  They may be exercising more magical power than is obvious at the moment.   That could have implications for the story going forward.  

Bran sees a cavern filled with COTF interred in the weirwood roots.  What are they up to?.  I think they manifest as flocks of ravens and crows and as individual watchers.  Leaf went out into the world to learn the common tongue and she is old. This bird seems to understand the conversation around it and it's vocabulary isn't just mimicry.  It's instructive and Jon sometimes detects emotions. The bird is also described as queer and old.

I'm reminded of the stories that crows and ravens once carried messages, but the language has been forgotten. Leaf goes out into the world to learn the language so she could speak to Bran and I suspect with Jon as well using Mormont's Raven. 

 

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4 hours ago, LongRider said:

While I don't see these spaces as changing time, more like offering other outcomes if one goes over or through the threshold.  If others have any thoughts of liminal spaces and going over their thresholds, I would love to hear them.

Could we consider a state of mind to have liminal boundaries?  I'm thinking of Theon entering a timeless space when he witnesses Ramsey's wedding.  The fogs and mist are the veil between one state of being and another.  Euron says that shade of the evening lifts the veil.  Bran's coma dream is another example (with a guide).  When Bran begins to wake another veil is ripped away.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 I'm thinking of Theon entering a timeless space when he witnesses Ramsey's wedding.  The fogs and mist are the veil between one state of being and another.  

Glad you mentioned this as that chapter was so spooky and well done.  As Theon got closer to the WW tree, the mists and fogs increased. Your description of them being a veil between one state and another works.
 

Did Theon move into a magical state?  After all, not only did he hear Bran, but Bran touched him with a leaf that fell onto Theon’s cheek. 
 

A question, did Bran have the power to speak to Theon?  Did Theon become receptive because he went between the veils?  Both?

I love that scene, so much going on. 

 

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