US Politics 46 - And there was much rejoicing

[Ran]

Here (PDF file) is the OLC opinion that I referred to in a previous thread. TL;DR: The President cannot pardon himself, but no one has ever tried and it has never been tested in court.

Here is the text of Ford's proclamation pardoning Nixon, including the text of the pardon.

As far as I know, no one ever tried to test whether Ford could do that, but I think the general view is that this was fine.

I agree that a pardon immunizing for future crimes is not possible, though. It's not really a pardon anymore.

 

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

Here (PDF file) is the OLC opinion that I referred to in a previous thread.

I don't think the OLC opinion really matters ultimately.  The justices can just ignore it and I really couldn't blame them (or at least it'd be hypocritical) - I'd ignore the two OLC opinions that sitting presidents can't be charged with a crime if I was in their position.

Pardoning for future crimes, yes, I think we can discard that as not possibly being upheld even with this SC.  Think we can also almost certainly discard them upholding Trump issuing a blanket pardon for any state crimes, that's a pretty bright-line.  But pardoning one's self?  Definitely a small chance this court may let it slide.  Decidedly small chance, but still clearly a chance.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Anyway: I think people are overlooking how... interesting... the next two months will be. Trump has the capacity to do a fair bit of deliberate sabotage before he leaves. 

I think everyone is aware and would rather rejoice right now, knowing the next couple of months will be tense. 

[Derfel Cadarn]

Scottish author Chris Brookmyre’s take on Trump’s choice of press conference 

 

[Guest]

Guess everyone finally collapsed from exhaustion.

[GrimTuesday]

I don't think Biden should pardon Trump, even if he has no intention of actually bringing charges against him. I agree that it is a bit of a dangerous precedent to start prosecuting ones predecessor, but at the same time it is equally dangerous to send a signal that a president can do whatever they want during their time in office without fear of repercussion aonce their time is up. We can't just shrug our shoulders and say whats past is past every time one of these dirt bags leaves office. Every single president in modern American history is, in one way or another, a war criminal, so we can't pretend that anyone is spotless, but this will be the third time a president should have been prosecuted, and this will be the third time we shrug our shoulders in the face of justice.

[3CityApache]

I have a problem with those pro-Trump demonstrants yelling about "election stealing". 

Supporting Trump because of economy, GDP growth, blah blah blah is one thing, albeit scary, but believing him in his lunatic acusations is quite another, isn't it?

[Impmk2]

So Biden's lead in Georgia is now up at 10k. On the numbers we were given there can't be many, if any left to count. That's far more solid a lead than anyone was predicting.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Impmk2 said:

So Biden's lead in Georgia is now up at 10k. On the numbers we were given there can't be many, if any left to count. That's far more solid a lead than anyone was predicting.

Just a couple hundred over.

Hell, depending on the votes left he could end up at 11,000.

[Relic]

Drudge (fuck him, but still) has a massive "You're Fired" headline dead center page. Pretty priceless. 

[The Anti-Targ]

You can already see the rats jumping ship. Trump has done himself no end of harm with the every man for himself Republicans by continuing with the stolen election and mounting legal challenges line. Those fearing that he'd be back in 4 years can probably rest easier now since the "not conservative enough" excuse is going to be deployed pretty soon.

[mormont]

Trump is unlikley to be back in four years anyway. That's not his style, IMO.

Don Jr. and Ivanka both clearly fancy a go, but their stars will wane (insofar as they've ever waxed).

[OnionAhaiReborn]

25 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

You can already see the rats jumping ship. Trump has done himself no end of harm with the every man for himself Republicans by continuing with the stolen election and mounting legal challenges line. Those fearing that he'd be back in 4 years can probably rest easier now since the "not conservative enough" excuse is going to be deployed pretty soon.

Very few Republicans have yet acknowledged Biden's victory, and I think that's important to note. Whether they're truly going to wait until every state officially certifies their results, I do not know, but this is an aberration. With the exception of 2000, which was genuinely up in the air, network projections are always accepted well before it's "official." And the normal thing is for party leaders to acknowledge and congratulate the victor once the outcome is known, as it is now. 

So if we're reading the tea leaves to see what the Republican Party will be like after Trump's exit, the first indication they're giving us is that they're still scared of him, still willing to violate norms at his behest, still wiling to stand silent as he makes reckless, dangerous, wholly fabricated accusations. The worst of them are endorsing his baseless claims. But even those who are merely indulging Trump's fit by putting out statements about counting every legal vote and waiting for every frivolous court challenge to be resolved are playing a very dangerous game. We are likely going to come out of this election with 30-40% of the population believing it was the result of massive fraud, and the longer Republicans let that lie fester, the more dangerous it becomes. 

[The Anti-Targ]

I don't interpret their actions as afraid of Trump, except to the extent that he still wields the power of the President. In terms of the election result they are just supremely pissed at the temerity of the Democrats to unseat yet another 1st term Republican President. So they want to remain in denial for as long as possible, and not admit anything until the 270+ worth of ECVs certify their results for Biden.

Trump is still President until 20 January, and if we know anything about Trump is that he does not observe the norms. So rather than behaving as a caretaker he's likely to try to do as much as he can in his final weeks. And if that means taking down some turncoat Republicans he will. So the knives won't come out until he's gone gone, not just about to be gone. Once he's no longer got that presidential seal he's a damp squib. Before then he's a wounded badger, with rabies.

[Toth]

... or they look at the fact that there are more than 70 Million Americas out there who just voted for Trump after four years of non-stop scandals, cruelty, corruption, criminal negligence and incessant whining and thought to themselves "This is our guy!". I think they are more afraid of loosing those voters for jumping off the Trump train before it officially hits the wall.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Questionable, I think. Our resident legal/history scholars mentioned there being a legal opinion from Nixon era, in which the AG argued No, that would put the President above the law. And could he pardon himself for crimes he's not even charged with, yet? That's the other question attached to it.

Again, our resident lawyers can chime in and argue about it.

Would he do it? Yes, it's not like he has shown much regard to the rule of law or avoiding constitutional crisis during the past four years. But that seems to be legally less safe than Biden doing it.

There is no clear precedent that establishes the Pardon Power in Art. II includes the power to pardon yourself.  Now, Trump has the power, right now, to preemptively pardon his family and everyone he considers “loyal” for their actions in his behalf during his Administration, and before his Administration, for any potential Federal crimes.  

Importantly, recently the US Supreme Court made clear that the President of the United States does not have the power to pardon for State Crimes.  Also, if a pardon is accepted it is an admission of guilt that person may no longer assert the 5th Amendment to refuse to answer questions about the crimes they have admitted to because there is no potential criminal sanction available for those pardoned crimes.

Thag means if blanket pardons are issued those individuals who accept such pardons may be questioned publicly and extensively about what they did without the 5th Amendment being invoked.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

I don't think Biden should pardon Trump, even if he has no intention of actually bringing charges against him. I agree that it is a bit of a dangerous precedent to start prosecuting ones predecessor, but at the same time it is equally dangerous to send a signal that a president can do whatever they want during their time in office without fear of repercussion aonce their time is up. We can't just shrug our shoulders and say whats past is past every time one of these dirt bags leaves office. Every single president in modern American history is, in one way or another, a war criminal, so we can't pretend that anyone is spotless, but this will be the third time a president should have been prosecuted, and this will be the third time we shrug our shoulders in the face of justice.

Agreed.  And I also agree with the authors of the Book After Trump that we need to make explicitly illegal most, if not all, of Trump’s violations of “Presidential Norms”:

https://www.amazon.com/After-Trump-Reconstructing-Bob-Bauer/dp/1735480614/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3AKP9B1XTMHLN&dchild=1&keywords=after+trump+reconstructing+the+presidency&qid=1604839683&sprefix=After+Trump%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-2

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

I have a problem with those pro-Trump demonstrants yelling about "election stealing". 

Supporting Trump because of economy, GDP growth, blah blah blah is one thing, albeit scary, but believing him in his lunatic acusations is quite another, isn't it?

I think the people publicly backing him, at this point, are the hard core conspiracy kooks who’ve fully bought into the nihilistic conspiracy theories created by 8Chan Trolls.  

They scare me.  They will do something crazy in near future and claim to be justified by the nihilistic troll conspiracies. The Trolls will find bodies in the street funny.

[Darzin]

I think it'll be less then 30-40% who ultimatley seriousley believe in a stolen election. Remember after 2004 a ton of democrats beleived Bush stole Ohio. And there are people in this very thread, and the last one, commenting how worried they are about Republican "fraud".  Trump direclty stoking those fears though will defintiley raise the floor from what it would be. 

[Guest]

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