US Politics 47 - Biden Time (To Be Litigious)

[Larry of the Lawn]

13 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I heard the interview on CNN this morning with Clyburn saying defund the police is this generation’s burn baby burn and I agree with him. I think up here in Canada we have absolutely failed to create alternatives to the police that can deal with mental health calls, many of which end up with police shooting and killing a guy who needs a doctor, not a bullet. From what I see on tv that’s often the situation in the US as well.

Using “defund the police” is the wrong slogan. If you can run an American community, or city, or state, or the country, without a police force, I’ve yet to see any evidence of it. That communities have created alternate support services I have seen, and they didn’t get rid of the police at the same time. But Trump and the Republicans really used that phrase to make gains across the country. I saw lots of interviews with voters and defund police really scared them.

And it was never adopted by the party as a whole!  Connor Lamb hitched his own wagon to it.  Clyburn can say that's what cost Harrison the election, but Harrison peaked in October, months after 'defund the police' was even being talked about and long after Biden and most Dems had disavowed it.  There will always be people screaming socialism when it makes no sense (see Florida) and people like Spanberger whining about people like AOC or Tlaib or Corri Bush running on what's right for their district.  

Connor Lamb and Spanberger and Joe Manchin get to run on values much more to the right than the Dem mainstream and it's fine.  That's what they need to do to hold those seats.  Well, Corri Bush just got elected running on defunding the police.  

Whether you like the slogan, think it's bad, or whatever, it's not why Jaime Harrison lost.  This is just the Dem mainstream backing off from actually having to change the status quo.

[Mindwalker]

15 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I heard the interview on CNN this morning with Clyburn saying defund the police is this generation’s burn baby burn and I agree with him. I think up here in Canada we have absolutely failed to create alternatives to the police that can deal with mental health calls, many of which end up with police shooting and killing a guy who needs a doctor, not a bullet. From what I see on tv that’s often the situation in the US as well.

Using “defund the police” is the wrong slogan. If you can run an American community, or city, or state, or the country, without a police force, I’ve yet to see any evidence of it. That communities have created alternate support services I have seen, and they didn’t get rid of the police at the same time. But Trump and the Republicans really used that phrase to make gains across the country. I saw lots of interviews with voters and defund police really scared them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they used it. Or did they?

During the final debate, I think Trump accused Biden of wanting to defund the police.

 

ETA: Never mind, @larrytheimp answered that.

[Larry of the Lawn]

19 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Interestingly enough, a lot of PoC have take issue with the Left's messaging - there's a feeling that predominantly white well off "cosplay socialists" are speaking over PoC.

For example:

I think we'll need more and better exit polling, among other things, to get a good sense of what helped and what hurt in terms of Trump's inroads with minority voters. But the above is being echoed among PoC, though of course people I look to on Twitter isn't a real sampling.

That twitter thread just descends into a rant against Sanders and the Squad, and seems to think that anyone going beyond Official! Party! Messaging! should be excommunicated from the Dems.  I think the primary results that she keeps quoting also show that among black and latino voters under 45 Sanders and the Squad are very popular.

 

[Sci-2]

1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

That twitter thread just descends into a rant against Sanders and the Squad, and seems to think that anyone going beyond Official! Party! Messaging! should be excommunicated from the Dems.  I think the primary results that she keeps quoting also show that among black and latino voters under 45 Sanders and the Squad are very popular.

Well like I said we'll need more polling to see what's what, but my point was more that the Left's claiming of black voter organization and PoC liberal voters in general is an exaggeration.

As for the primaries, Sanders being routed in SC seems like a good indication of what I'm talking about.

[kairparavel]

The things that have got us to this current moment in time are clearly not working for everyone. The past four years. The previous hundreds and hundreds. 

People, particularly white people, have got to get over themselves and get over a fear of change. Get out of our comfort zone. The people who carried this victory don't have a comfort zone. Everything they do is a fight - from access to unencumbered voting to fair treatment in the justice system to fair accesss to housing and healthcare and education.

Defund the Police! seemingly sounds terrifying when you put words to it, but steathily shifting money away from education and healthcare (thereby DEFUNDING THEM) is totally ok! No one is clutching their pearls over that! OMG if we put these millions of dollars into our communities and community resources instead of kitting out Des Moines SWAT in military gear it'll be pandemonium!

Instead of being afraid, people and particularly people who have had zero encounters with police over their lives, should step back and consider what a world with the right person responding to right situation can do for communities. Let the people and their community reps define the roles of their community servants instead of the other way around.

Finally, if you don't like AOC that's fine, but after how many elections where the complaint is about turnout in the youth vote well, they showed up and she was part of that. And you'd better listen to them if you want to keep them. Their futures are looking grimmer than ours and we owe them something better than what they are headed to.

 

[Morpheus]

 

[Lollygag]

The terms progressive and socialist can't be used interchangeably. There's certainly crossover but there are major differences.

Warren, etc are very progressive, but that's clearly not where the heat of the conflict lies. There are reports out there that Biden and Warren have become very close, talk very frequently and she might be a cabinet pick. Response even among the Republican wing: crickets compared to socialists.

In terms of party, AOC has said that she and Biden shouldn't even be in the same party, Bernie's not even a Dem, he's openly talked about a hostile takeover of the Democrats, and he's not ruled out primarying Biden/Harris in 2024. It's not accurate that AOC, etc are only just representing their district. They are organizing to primary other Democrats around the country. Openly. It makes zero sense to do this stuff and then be upset about people inevitably reacting to that.

 

[A Prince of Dorne]

“Defund the police” is one of the more counter-productive slogans of this cycle. Find a better headline if you want the average person to be open to the ideas inside it

[BigFatCoward]

36 minutes ago, kairparavel said:

.

Defund the Police! seemingly sounds terrifying when you put words to it, but steathily shifting money away from education and healthcare (thereby DEFUNDING THEM) is totally ok! No one is clutching their pearls over that! OMG if we put these millions of dollars into our communities and community resources instead of kitting out Des Moines SWAT in military gear it'll be pandemonium!

 

 

There was a comment in a previous thread about how great a slogan MAGA is, defund the police is the complete opposite, a good idea sold terribly. 

Ninja'd. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

24 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The terms progressive and socialist can't be used interchangeably. There's certainly crossover but there are major differences.

Warren, etc are very progressive, but that's clearly not where the heat of the conflict lies. There are reports out there that Biden and Warren have become very close, talk very frequently and she might be a cabinet pick. Response even among the Republican wing: crickets compared to socialists.

In terms of party, AOC has said that she and Biden shouldn't even be in the same party, Bernie's not even a Dem, he's openly talked about a hostile takeover of the Democrats, and he's not ruled out primarying Biden/Harris in 2024. It's not accurate that AOC, etc are only just representing their district. They are organizing to primary other Democrats around the country. Openly. It makes zero sense to do this stuff and then be upset about people inevitably reacting to that.

 

You mean voting?  I think by "hostile takeover" you mean ran a campaign and asked people to vote for him.

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

You mean voting?  I think by "hostile takeover" you mean ran a campaign and asked people to vote for him.

Google Bernie Sanders and "hostile takeover". Too many results for me to even bother posting.

[AverageGuy]

50 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

I think we'll need more and better exit polling, among other things, to get a good sense of what helped and what hurt in terms of Trump's inroads with minority voters. But the above is being echoed among PoC, though of course people I look to on Twitter isn't a real sampling.

Most of what I've seen relates to Biden opposing bussing, writing the 1994 crime bill, and the idea that Dems are taking minority votes for granted (e.g. the "you ain't black" gaffe). But you're right, we'll see what the exit polling show in the aggregate.

[SpaceChampion]

The hostile takeover was from corporate Dems beginning with Joe Biden in the 1970s and completing the process with the Clintons in the 90's.  Restoring the labor union roots would be a good thing, but right now unions voted for Trump.

[Larry of the Lawn]

5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Google Bernie Sanders and "hostile takeover". Too many results for me to even bother posting.

I did... and it's just a bunch of pundits saying Bernie running for President was an attempted hostile takeover.  So if he did something other than run for president I'd love to know what this "hostile takeover" was.  

[Lollygag]

Young black people (29%) are much more likely to trust Republicans than their elders (8%).

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-partisan-gender-and-generational-differences-among-black-voters-heading-into-election-day/

Quote

The divide between older and younger Black voters

Share of Black voters who hold the following positions or agree with the given statements

	Age
position	18-29	60+	Overall
Trump is a racist	79%	90%	84%
Trump is incompetent	74	90	79
I vote to support the Black community *	54	71	63
Democratic Party is “welcoming” to Black Americans	47	76	61
Trust congressional Democrats to “do what is best” for Black people	43	73	57
I do not always like Trump’s policies, but I like the way he shows strength and defies the establishment.	35	10	30
Definitely motivated to vote	29	78	55
Trust congressional Republicans to do “what is best” for Black people	29	8	21
GOP is “welcoming” to Black Americans	28	7	22
I don’t vote because it doesn’t make a difference *	21	2	14

 

[kairparavel]

Youth vote shouldn't be mistaken for 'white youth vote'.

[Sci-2]

Just now, Lollygag said:

Google Bernie Sanders and "hostile takeover". Too many results for me to even bother posting.

Yeah I think this messaging may have been part of why SC destroyed his hopes of being POTUS:

Not to say I have some special insight into black voters, or that this is the *definitive* voice of black voters, but it isn't hard to look around and find this sentiment.

1 minute ago, AverageGuy said:

Most of what I've seen relates to Biden opposing bussing, writing the 1994 crime bill, and the idea that Dems are taking minority votes for granted (e.g. the "you ain't black" gaffe). But you're right, we'll see what the exit polling show in the aggregate.

Yeah I've seen that too, and of course black people are not a monolith, but I've also seen a lot of support from black voters for Biden. "We know Joe" was something that came up a few times.

That Bernie's hope of winning the Dem primary was decisviely shattered in SC does speak to that support as well.

My dad despises Bernie as a spoiler, ruining the Dem's chances and fucking over Hilary, to give a sample size of one from the Indian-American community. Probably clear I somewhat lean that way as well, though I think the Left isn't wrong about policy so much as sometimes wrong about timing & strategy. I know the Vetting Bernie site was run by an Indian American as well. Same thing said above about black voters of course applies, Indian voters aren't a monolith either, but it does push back against what it seems to me AoC suggests in her interviews - that the Left is speaking for Dem voting PoCs.

Trumps inroads with PoC voters is something else we'll have to untangle of course.

[GrimTuesday]

18 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The terms progressive and socialist can't be used interchangeably. There's certainly crossover but there are major differences.

Warren, etc are very progressive, but that's clearly not where the heat of the conflict lies. There are reports out there that Biden and Warren have become very close, talk very frequently and she might be a cabinet pick. Response even among the Republican wing: crickets compared to socialists.

In terms of party, AOC has said that she and Biden shouldn't even be in the same party, Bernie's not even a Dem, he's openly talked about a hostile takeover of the Democrats, and he's not ruled out primarying Biden/Harris in 2024. It's not accurate that AOC, etc are only just representing their district. They are organizing to primary other Democrats around the country. Openly. It makes zero sense to do this stuff and then be upset about people inevitably reacting to that.

 

Not a single elected official is entitled to their position, and the idea that running primary challenges is a bad thing is idiotic from a voter perspective. Not running real primary challenges is is how you end up with fossils like Dianna Feinstine running the Democratic side of the Judiciary Committee at almost 90 years old, or Eliot Engle coasting to victory for 20 years while being a lap dog to capital. Iron sharpens iron, and primary challenges are how you keep elected officials accountable, and prevent political ossification.

Also Bernie Sanders nor any of those aligned with him have never actually outright said that they are working towards a hostile takeover as far as I can tell. That narrative is coming from people like Joy Reid who hate Sanders for... Reasons?

[Lollygag]

5 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

I did... and it's just a bunch of pundits saying Bernie running for President was an attempted hostile takeover.  So if he did something other than run for president I'd love to know what this "hostile takeover" was.  

Ad hominem. Bernie didn't backtrack from the accusation.

Socialist =/= Democrat. Dude outright said he was no Democrat. This is crossing over into intellectual dishonesty.

"So if he Trump did something other than run for president I'd love to know what this "hostile takeover" was." By this logic, what Trump did was no hostile takeover either.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

Connor Lamb

It's Conor not Connor.  Stop trying to subliminally imply Bull with the misspelling!   

Anyway, while "defund the police" is rather inarguably bad messaging for most Democratic candidates, it's definitely not why Harrison lost SC.  Clyburn's being crotchety there, agreed.  There's a much better way to message the actual policies the slogan is describing - which indeed are quite popular with the public.  I'd think most of us can agree with that.

In general with this whole debate.  AOC has every reason and right to defend herself against the attacks that were plainly initiated by "moderate" Dems throughout the media virtually immediately yesterday.  I can completely empathize with her frustration, it's absurd.  Anyone that wants to assign blame for the election "loss" this cycle right now is childish, petty, and talking out of their ass because no one could possibly know what the reason(s) is yet.