US Politics 47 - Biden Time (To Be Litigious)

[The Marquis de Leech]

5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Both the Trump and Biden campaigns were wooing the catholic vote. Based on an exit poll survey, the catholic vote moved Biden’s way compared to 2016. It was split evenly between Trump and Biden this time. The Catholic vote was ~22% of the electorate this year and although they do not vote as a monolith, they are especially important for democrats to maintain the Rust Belt states. America magazine (a jesuit and liberal catholic magazine) published exit polls based on a survey, AP VoteCast. https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/11/06/catholic-vote-donald-trump-joe-biden-election-split

Exit polls are a bit difficult to pull off, given the discrepancy between on the day and postal voting.

[Lollygag]

8 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

You’re not being very clear using words like “squishy”  It seems like you are expecting a burden of expertise about other countries for people whose ideas you don’t like that you aren’t expecting for anyone else. All of your posts about this subject are pretty vague and emotionally knee-jerky and contain no actual evidence of anything. It’s hard to tell what you are referring to, citing some examples would help. Socialism isn’t scary. There are plenty of enormously popular socialist policies in the United States that have existed for generations. 
 

Lastly- of course it’s about policy. It should be about policy. None of your criticisms have had any policy and have just repeated right wing fear mongering nonsense. The policy is the only way to dispel that, and it’s not very compelling to counter actual policies with criticisms like “squishy” and “bossy”

I'm not discussing the pros and cons of socialism itself. Moreso how it's processed consciously and unconsciously by a voter in the US.

By squishy, I mean the links attached. Bernie has a long pattern of excusing socialists even though they're authoritarian. AOC did surprise me on this.

[teej6]

4 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Exit polls are a bit difficult to pull off, given the discrepancy between on the day and postal voting.

Agree with the above... just thought preliminary numbers from the article was interesting.

[Lollygag]

12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Both the Trump and Biden campaigns were wooing the catholic vote. Based on an exit poll survey, the catholic vote moved Biden’s way compared to 2016. It was split evenly between Trump and Biden this time. The Catholic vote was ~22% of the electorate this year and although they do not vote as a monolith, they are especially important for democrats to maintain the Rust Belt states. America magazine (a jesuit and liberal catholic magazine) published exit polls based on a survey, AP VoteCast. https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/11/06/catholic-vote-donald-trump-joe-biden-election-split

A nun made a very strong pro-life case for Biden and I think it's a tragically missed opportunity for Dems. Abortions went down under Obama/Biden because of increased availability of birth control and also it showed that some women didn't get abortions when they felt they had a social safety net to care for the child properly.

She also called out how pro-life is also about the health and happiness of the child after they're born which Republicans don't care about.

[Fury Resurrected]

5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm not discussing the pros and cons of socialism itself. Moreso how it's processed consciously and unconsciously by a voter in the US.

By squishy, I mean the links attached. Bernie has a long pattern of excusing socialists even though they're authoritarian. AOC did surprise me on this.

You are though, or at least if you are not, that’s new to the discussion. Calling something authoritarian is discussing the pros and cons. Calling it scary is discussing the pros and cons. And I think what you are doing is conflating individuals and personalities you don’t like with policies and ideas. All socialism is is a set of policies, the discussion you started is absolutely what you are now claiming it is not. If you wanna critique individuals for who they are, that’s fine, but that isn’t relevant to an entire school of political thought and policy preference.

[Fury Resurrected]

4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

A nun made a very strong pro-life case for Biden and I think it's a tragically missed opportunity for Dems. Abortions went down under Obama/Biden because of increased availability of birth control and also it showed that some women didn't get abortions when they felt they had a social safety net to care for the child properly.

She also called out how pro-life is also about the health and happiness of the child after they're born which Republicans don't care about.

That nun meme has been around for years- conservatives KNOW about this argument, they don’t care. This argument relies upon recognizing the fact that abstinence only does not work- and while their own lives provide anecdotal evidence of this, they are unwilling to support any approach that doesn’t encourage people not to have any sex until they are married. They don’t like birth control. They don’t like sex education. They have seen the data proving these are the best preventers of abortion and they do not give a fuck at all- because their motivation is moral policing, and that extends to birth control and sex education as much as it extends to abortion. You can say this shit to pro-lifers until you are blue in the face and they will just tell you that you are encouraging kids to have sex.

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

You are though, or at least if you are not, that’s new to the discussion. Calling something authoritarian is discussing the pros and cons. Calling it scary is discussing the pros and cons. And I think what you are doing is conflating individuals and personalities you don’t like with policies and ideas. All socialism is is a set of policies, the discussion you started is absolutely what you are now claiming it is not. If you wanna critique individuals for who they are, that’s fine, but that isn’t relevant to an entire school of political thought and policy preference.

Perceived pros and cons. Scary and authoritarian feeds into a lot of old narratives. And when they intentionally or unintentionally confirm those narratives which they do with rural voters, folks react.

I like AOC personally. Same with Bernie except when he gets too New Yorky with the yelling and poking but that has nothing to with his politics. He compensates for it elsewhere.

Voters vote more on trust and personality than on policy.

 

[Martell Spy]

You know what really drives rural voters crazy? Abortion. Why don't we simply cave on abortion rights? I'm a man, it won't even effect me and we'll get massive amounts of votes.

[Lollygag]

14 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

That nun meme has been around for years- conservatives KNOW about this argument, they don’t care. This argument relies upon recognizing the fact that abstinence only does not work- and while their own lives provide anecdotal evidence of this, they are unwilling to support any approach that doesn’t encourage people not to have any sex until they are married. They don’t like birth control. They don’t like sex education. They have seen the data proving these are the best preventers of abortion and they do not give a fuck at all- because their motivation is moral policing, and that extends to birth control and sex education as much as it extends to abortion. You can say this shit to pro-lifers until you are blue in the face and they will just tell you that you are encouraging kids to have sex.

It was a live interview that I saw and I've never heard it before.

This is a negative stereotype and not universally accurate at all. In my very red area, this is so untrue with how I was raised and I went to church weekly and to a private Christian school.

[Fury Resurrected]

13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It was a live interview that I saw and I've never heard it before.

This is a negative stereotype and not universally accurate at all. In my very red area, this is so untrue with how I was raised and I went to church weekly and to a private Christian school.

If it’s so untrue, why do so few places (and no red states) have comprehensive sex education? Why did they back things like the Hobby Lobby decision to pay more for plans that exclude birth control coverage? Pro Lifers, as a voting block, are exactly who stands in the way of these measures every single time there is an attempt to implement them. If you were correct, pro life voters would be THE champions for sex education and birth control but they aren’t. Planned Parenthood is banned by law from using government funds for abortion, but they still lobby the hardest to remove the public funding they do get- which goes to birth control, std testing, and cancer screening. They may *say* they aren’t anti birth control and sex Ed, but the advocacy groups they give money to and the politicians they vote for go after those policies with no admonition from them.

 

edited to add- if this is untrue in your experience, what kind of sex education did you receive in the school you went to?

[The Marquis de Leech]

2 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

Pro Lifers, as a voting block, are exactly who stands in the way of these measures every single time there is an attempt to implement them.

Speaking as an individual, I am actually rather uncomfortable with abortion - which is precisely why I am a huge fan of sex education and contraceptives.

[Lollygag]

3 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said:

If it’s so untrue, why do so few places (and no red states) have comprehensive sex education? Why did they back things like the Hobby Lobby decision to pay more for plans that exclude birth control coverage? Pro Lifers, as a voting block, are exactly who stands in the way of these measures every single time there is an attempt to implement them. If you were correct, pro life voters would be THE champions for sex education and birth control but they aren’t. Planned Parenthood is banned by law from using government funds for abortion, but they still lobby the hardest to remove the public funding they do get- which goes to birth control, std testing, and cancer screening. They may *say* they aren’t anti birth control and sex Ed, but the advocacy groups they give money to and the politicians they vote for go after those policies with no admonition from them.

 

edited to add- if this is untrue in your experience, what kind of sex education did you receive in the school you went to?

Gerrymandering.

I'm saying that's a negative stereotype of people and their experience so I don't get the response that jumps into politics. Reread my post. What I said was clearly not pro-life so please don't yell at me. Most Americans statistically fall into the range of some degree of pro-choice and it's hardly universal in my hometown. I don't recall it's ever even been discussed to any significant degree.

My sex ed classes were strictly medical - the medical processes, birth control, no inflammatory opinions on abortion either way, no opinion either way on abstinence, how birth control works and doesn't work, STDs.

[Fury Resurrected]

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Gerrymandering.

I'm saying that's a negative stereotype of people and their experience so I don't get the response that jumps into politics. Reread my post. What I said was clearly not pro-life so please don't yell at me. Most Americans statistically fall into the range of some degree of pro-choice and it's hardly universal in my hometown. I don't recall it's ever even been discussed to any significant degree.

My sex ed classes were strictly medical - the medical processes, birth control, no inflammatory opinions on abortion either way, no opinion either way on abstinence, how birth control works and doesn't work, STDs.

I’m not yelling at you. This is a politics thread, if you don’t want responses to jump to politics, that’s not a reasonable expectation here. 

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, Fury Resurrected said:

I’m not yelling at you. This is a politics thread, if you don’t want responses to jump to politics, that’s not a reasonable expectation here. 

That's not what I was talking about and you know it. I was discussing ways to persuade pro-life voters to see it a different way and you went into whatever that was when I said you were putting out an incorrect stereotype by saying we're all backwards.

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Gerrymandering.

I haven't been following this discussion in any real depth, but to attribute the differences in abortion policy or general reproductive rights to gerrymandering is a fundamental misunderstanding of the term.  Many if not most of such policies are set statewide, not by localities.  Thus, by definition, gerrymandering has little to nothing to do with it.  It is not possible to gerrymander between states.  The entire concept involves differences within a certain state.  Sorry, just a pet peeve, carry on.

[Lollygag]

28 minutes ago, DMC said:

I haven't been following this discussion in any real depth, but to attribute the differences in abortion policy or general reproductive rights to gerrymandering is a fundamental misunderstanding of the term.  Many if not most of such policies are set statewide, not by localities.  Thus, by definition, gerrymandering has little to nothing to do with it.  It is not possible to gerrymander between states.  The entire concept involves differences within a certain state.  Sorry, just a pet peeve, carry on.

There was a list of things, but yeah.

On that specifically, I was referring to Kasich refusing to sign the Legislature's heartbeat bill over and over again, but DeWine couldn't do it fast enough (only had 39% support) and we're one of the worst when it comes to gerrymandering skewing our popular vote distribution and against our representation.

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

A nun made a very strong pro-life case for Biden and I think it's a tragically missed opportunity for Dems. Abortions went down under Obama/Biden because of increased availability of birth control and also it showed that some women didn't get abortions when they felt they had a social safety net to care for the child properly.

She also called out how pro-life is also about the health and happiness of the child after they're born which Republicans don't care about.

This is a problem not only in US but everywhere. I think pretty much everybody recognize that abortions are difficult decisions, eventually traumatizing and even dangerous, but it's an option that needs to be there for a number of reasons. The best way to fight abortions is to have comprehensive sex education and a wide availability of birth control options, as well as a safety net, including proper engagement from the male progenitors.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

4 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Here is some nightmare fuel for you all

 

First stage of grief. 

[Relic]

56 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

First stage of grief. 

Wow, thats horrifying. 

 

Here's some more bad news - 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-plans-to-revive-campaign-style-rallies-as-he-pursues-legal-challenges-to-election-results

 

Trump is going to continue touring the country, riling people up, claiming he was robbed. He's going to stoke the fires and try to divide the country as much as he possibly can. and he's going to cause a LOT of grief. Someone needs to fucking *redacted* him. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

But I never accused you of being rich. I acknowledged you were a Republican (and a traditional one at that, not the new style).

I have never been a “Republican” though I more often than not supported Republican candidates (15 years ago).  Not quite the same thing.