US Politics: finally we can get back to blaming each other

[Fragile Bird]

With regard to Esper, I gather he prepared a resignation letter and Trump took the position, “You can’t quit, I fire you!”. Disloyal bastard!

Apparently people at the WH looking for a job are traitors.

[DMC]

As has already been proved quite apparent by the current discussion, the American electorate's relationship with "socialism" is incredibly complicated and fraught at basically every turn.  Accordingly, I think it'd be useful to first examine what we actually know about Americans' current attitudes towards socialism to provide an actual foundation - rather than starting off from the perpetual and tired food fight of "moderates" blaming "leftists" for electoral difficulties and vice versa that's not only inevitably unproductive but almost always leads to more harm than good.

First, as of 2019, while 51% of Americans believe socialism would be bad for the country, 43% say socialism would be a good thing.  This is a notable and consistent increase in favorable opinions towards socialism among the electorate that emphasizes it's still unquestionably a losing proposition for a major party to wholly embrace in national elections.  Digging deeper, Americans retain a very positive view of "the free market" yet at the same time 40% say the US economy leans towards government control and an additional 25% say it's an equal mix between government and free market control.  Perhaps most importantly, while a majority of Democrats view socialism positively - and that hasn't changed much over the past decade - there's been a major decrease in Democrats' favorable views towards capitalism, down to 47%.

Those Gallup numbers are virtually replicated by a Pew poll later in 2019 that report 42% to 55% split in positive/negative views on socialism.  Pew had 65% of Americans with a positive view of capitalism, and interestingly 38% of Democrats share a positive view of both capitalism and socialism. 

In a later poll (still in 2019), Gallup had capitalism at 60/35% positive/negative overall.  Here, however, the generational differences are clear and stark.  Among Millennials and Gen Zers, 51% view capitalism positively and 49% view socialism positively - basically even.  Among Gen Xers the split is 60/40, and that extends to 68/32 among Boomers and the Silent Generation.  This aligns with the obvious intuition that negative attitudes towards socialism will dissipate as the Cold War continues to fade from the American consciousness.  More recently, Data For Progress ran a tracking poll during the early months of the pandemic that elicit valuable insights. 

Here, 35% of respondents think "some form of socialism" would be a good thing for the country while 38% think it'd be a bad thing.  Attitudes towards the term socialism, however, split about 40% negative or neutral (each) and only 18% positive.  Yet, when asking attitudes on four socialist policies - including single payer/MFA and a job guarantee - over 1/3 of respondents support all four policies and over half support at least three.  Moreover, there is a positive linear relationship between positivity towards socialism and the number of socialist policies supported - indicating most Americans are aware these policies are indeed socialist (as opposed to the common critique that supporters of Medicare and SS don't understand/accept these are socialist policies, i.e. "keep government out of my Medicare"). 

Additionally, about 40% of Millennials, Gen Zers AND Gen Xers supported all four policies.  Finally, while about half of Biden supporters say socialism would be good for the country, only about 20% of them actually support the term socialism; meanwhile, the average Trump supporter reported support for about two of the four socialist policies.

I think we can glean four key takeaways from the findings of these recent polls:

1. While socialism is rather inarguably still a "bad word" for the American electorate overall, it is hardly an electoral vulnerability for voters 40 and under (a very large percentage of the electorate), suggesting it may not be much of a concern for Democrats' reelection constituency in the rather immediate future.
2. Support for capitalism remains solidly in the majority overall, but support is clearly dissipating among young voters and a substantial portion of the electorate - which likely aligns quite considerably to "swing voters" - appear comfortable with a "mix" between capitalism and socialism.
3. Support for "the free market" remains incredibly popular, albeit there's been a notable drop among Millennials/Gen Zers.
4. While Americans aren't too comfortable with socialism as a term, socialist policies enjoy widespread support and most voters understand these policies are socialist.

Now to combine that with the current political landscape.  Although it's definitely way too premature to jump to conclusions about the role socialism played in the election, I think a number of valid assumptions can already be advanced. 

First, as pointed out by many, the GOP is going to use the socialism attack no matter what Democrats do.  Second, while employing fear-mongering of socialism clearly was successful for the GOP among Cuban and South American voters, Miami-Dade is still only damn county in the entire country.  Trump's boost among Latino voters in south Texas and throughout the rest of the country almost certainly had nothing to do with socialism and very likely simply reflects the increasing schisms among rural/urban and educated/uneducated voters.  Third, Joe Biden almost certainly did not make gains among white voters (both educated and uneducated) because they thought he was less socialist than Hillary Clinton.  This logic can be extended to Obama, who outperformed both Biden and Clinton in almost all key areas that makeup Trump's clear electoral strength over two cycles.

Also, while this doesn't have to do specifically with last week's election, the efforts of Sanders, AOC and even Warren have clearly boosted support for socialist policies and shifted the (stupidly named) "Overton window" - even if certain messaging like MFA and Defund the Police inarguably remains toxic for Democrats' national hopes.  

So, how can this decidedly conflicting information be reconciled into a cohesive strategy concerning socialism for Democrats?  Sounds pretty fucking difficult, but the obvious political answer is to split the difference.  Continue to steer clear of any explicit relationship or messaging with socialism within swing districts, states, and especially presidential nominees.  But at the same time, the left should continue to push socialist policies and even wear the badge proudly so as to ensure socialism continues to not be a liability among younger voters that will comprise most of the electorate in another 10-15 years.  

Thus, in conclusion, this "have your cake and eat it to" strategy basically requires the Democratic party continue this mudslinging wherein the "moderates" blame the "leftists" for being too extreme and uncompromisingly rigid, and the left blames the moderates for being feckless incrementalists upholding an irreparably flawed and immoral system.  Congratulations all for doing your part, carry on, and god bless America!

[Mindwalker]

Fox News is the least right-wing link I could find:

 

 

[DMC]

54 minutes ago, Killjoybear said:

Probably the more likely case is that he had already pissed off Trump in August and was openly looking for other work. Petty is a lot more likely at this point instead of actual scary plots.

Yep, nothing to see here.

[Mindwalker]

Damn, I had a secret hope they would concede in lieu of 45, but of course not.  Kayleigh McEnany, Matthew Morgan, that RNC chairwoman all doubling down on the fraud allegations, producing another few millions of conspiracy theorists.... In a small press rooms that looks like it's in a basement, complete with asking for donations. Not at Four Seasons landscaping, I suppose.

[Relic]

This shit is going to drag on for weeks. Total shit show.

[GrimTuesday]

44 minutes ago, DMC said:

As has already been proved quite apparent by the current discussion, the American electorate's relationship with "socialism" is incredibly complicated and fraught at basically every turn.  Accordingly, I think it'd be useful to first examine what we actually know about Americans' current attitudes towards socialism to provide an actual foundation - rather than starting off from the perpetual and tired food fight of "moderates" blaming "leftists" for electoral difficulties and vice versa that's not only inevitably unproductive but almost always leads to more harm than good.

First, as of 2019, while 51% of Americans believe socialism would be bad for the country, 43% say socialism would be a good thing.  This is a notable and consistent increase in favorable opinions towards socialism among the electorate that emphasizes it's still unquestionably a losing proposition for a major party to wholly embrace in national elections.  Digging deeper, Americans retain a very positive view of "the free market" yet at the same time 40% say the US economy leans towards government control and an additional 25% say it's an equal mix between government and free market control.  Perhaps most importantly, while a majority of Democrats view socialism positively - and that hasn't changed much over the past decade - there's been a major decrease in Democrats' favorable views towards capitalism, down to 47%.

Those Gallup numbers are virtually replicated by a Pew poll later in 2019 that report 42% to 55% split in positive/negative views on socialism.  Pew had 65% of Americans with a positive view of capitalism, and interestingly 38% of Democrats share a positive view of both capitalism and socialism. 

In a later poll (still in 2019), Gallup had capitalism at 60/35% positive/negative overall.  Here, however, the generational differences are clear and stark.  Among Millennials and Gen Zers, 51% view capitalism positively and 49% view socialism positively - basically even.  Among Gen Xers the split is 60/40, and that extends to 68/32 among Boomers and the Silent Generation.  This aligns with the obvious intuition that negative attitudes towards socialism will dissipate as the Cold War continues to fade from the American consciousness.  More recently, Data For Progress ran a tracking poll during the early months of the pandemic that elicit valuable insights. 

Here, 35% of respondents think "some form of socialism" would be a good thing for the country while 38% think it'd be a bad thing.  Attitudes towards the term socialism, however, split about 40% negative or neutral (each) and only 18% positive.  Yet, when asking attitudes on four socialist policies - including single payer/MFA and a job guarantee - over 1/3 of respondents support all four policies and over half support at least three.  Moreover, there is a positive linear relationship between positivity towards socialism and the number of socialist policies supported - indicating most Americans are aware these policies are indeed socialist (as opposed to the common critique that supporters of Medicare and SS don't understand/accept these are socialist policies, i.e. "keep government out of my Medicare"). 

Additionally, about 40% of Millennials, Gen Zers AND Gen Xers supported all four policies.  Finally, while about half of Biden supporters say socialism would be good for the country, only about 20% of them actually support the term socialism; meanwhile, the average Trump supporter reported support for about two of the four socialist policies.

I think we can glean four key takeaways from the findings of these recent polls:

1. While socialism is rather inarguably still a "bad word" for the American electorate overall, it is hardly an electoral vulnerability for voters 40 and under (a very large percentage of the electorate), suggesting it may not be much of a concern for Democrats' reelection constituency in the rather immediate future.
2. Support for capitalism remains solidly in the majority overall, but support is clearly dissipating among young voters and a substantial portion of the electorate - which likely aligns quite considerably to "swing voters" - appear comfortable with a "mix" between capitalism and socialism.
3. Support for "the free market" remains incredibly popular, albeit there's been a notable drop among Millennials/Gen Zers.
4. While Americans aren't too comfortable with socialism as a term, socialist policies enjoy widespread support and most voters understand these policies are socialist.

Now to combine that with the current political landscape.  Although it's definitely way too premature to jump to conclusions about the role socialism played in the election, I think a number of valid assumptions can already be advanced. 

First, as pointed out by many, the GOP is going to use the socialism attack no matter what Democrats do.  Second, while employing fear-mongering of socialism clearly was successful for the GOP among Cuban and South American voters, Miami-Dade is still only damn county in the entire country.  Trump's boost among Latino voters in south Texas and throughout the rest of the country almost certainly had nothing to do with socialism and very likely simply reflects the increasing schisms among rural/urban and educated/uneducated voters.  Third, Joe Biden almost certainly did not make gains among white voters (both educated and uneducated) because they thought he was less socialist than Hillary Clinton.  This logic can be extended to Obama, who outperformed both Biden and Clinton in almost all key areas that makeup Trump's clear electoral strength over two cycles.

Also, while this doesn't have to do specifically with last week's election, the efforts of Sanders, AOC and even Warren have clearly boosted support for socialist policies and shifted the (stupidly named) "Overton window" - even if certain messaging like MFA and Defund the Police inarguably remains toxic for Democrats' national hopes.  

So, how can this decidedly conflicting information be reconciled into a cohesive strategy concerning socialism for Democrats?  Sounds pretty fucking difficult, but the obvious political answer is to split the difference.  Continue to steer clear of any explicit relationship or messaging with socialism within swing districts, states, and especially presidential nominees.  But at the same time, the left should continue to push socialist policies and even wear the badge proudly so as to ensure socialism continues to not be a liability among younger voters that will comprise most of the electorate in another 10-15 years.  

Thus, in conclusion, this "have your cake and eat it to" strategy basically requires the Democratic party continue this mudslinging wherein the "moderates" blame the "leftists" for being too extreme and uncompromisingly rigid, and the left blames the moderates for being feckless incrementalists upholding an irreparably flawed and immoral system.  Congratulations all for doing your part, carry on, and god bless America!

Glad to know that my impotent rage is all part of the grand plan.

[mormont]

Did McEnany really try to pull the 'Hi, I'm the White House Press Secretary speaking at a press conference in the White House but I'm speaking in a personal capacity' move?

[IheartIheartTesla]

Just wanted to note that Alaska has 157k uncounted ballots rather than the previously assumed 141k, making Biden and Green's odd go (slightly) up. I am trying to find the mail vote/in-person vote split by state but couldnt find it, anyone got easy access to that?

[The Anti-Targ]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

As has already been proved quite apparent by the current discussion, the American electorate's relationship with "socialism" is incredibly complicated and fraught at basically every turn.  Accordingly, I think it'd be useful to first examine what we actually know about Americans' current attitudes towards socialism to provide an actual foundation - rather than starting off from the perpetual and tired food fight of "moderates" blaming "leftists" for electoral difficulties and vice versa that's not only inevitably unproductive but almost always leads to more harm than good.

First, as of 2019, while 51% of Americans believe socialism would be bad for the country, 43% say socialism would be a good thing.  This is a notable and consistent increase in favorable opinions towards socialism among the electorate that emphasizes it's still unquestionably a losing proposition for a major party to wholly embrace in national elections.  Digging deeper, Americans retain a very positive view of "the free market" yet at the same time 40% say the US economy leans towards government control and an additional 25% say it's an equal mix between government and free market control.  Perhaps most importantly, while a majority of Democrats view socialism positively - and that hasn't changed much over the past decade - there's been a major decrease in Democrats' favorable views towards capitalism, down to 47%.

Those Gallup numbers are virtually replicated by a Pew poll later in 2019 that report 42% to 55% split in positive/negative views on socialism.  Pew had 65% of Americans with a positive view of capitalism, and interestingly 38% of Democrats share a positive view of both capitalism and socialism. 

In a later poll (still in 2019), Gallup had capitalism at 60/35% positive/negative overall.  Here, however, the generational differences are clear and stark.  Among Millennials and Gen Zers, 51% view capitalism positively and 49% view socialism positively - basically even.  Among Gen Xers the split is 60/40, and that extends to 68/32 among Boomers and the Silent Generation.  This aligns with the obvious intuition that negative attitudes towards socialism will dissipate as the Cold War continues to fade from the American consciousness.  More recently, Data For Progress ran a tracking poll during the early months of the pandemic that elicit valuable insights. 

Here, 35% of respondents think "some form of socialism" would be a good thing for the country while 38% think it'd be a bad thing.  Attitudes towards the term socialism, however, split about 40% negative or neutral (each) and only 18% positive.  Yet, when asking attitudes on four socialist policies - including single payer/MFA and a job guarantee - over 1/3 of respondents support all four policies and over half support at least three.  Moreover, there is a positive linear relationship between positivity towards socialism and the number of socialist policies supported - indicating most Americans are aware these policies are indeed socialist (as opposed to the common critique that supporters of Medicare and SS don't understand/accept these are socialist policies, i.e. "keep government out of my Medicare"). 

Additionally, about 40% of Millennials, Gen Zers AND Gen Xers supported all four policies.  Finally, while about half of Biden supporters say socialism would be good for the country, only about 20% of them actually support the term socialism; meanwhile, the average Trump supporter reported support for about two of the four socialist policies.

I think we can glean four key takeaways from the findings of these recent polls:

1. While socialism is rather inarguably still a "bad word" for the American electorate overall, it is hardly an electoral vulnerability for voters 40 and under (a very large percentage of the electorate), suggesting it may not be much of a concern for Democrats' reelection constituency in the rather immediate future.
2. Support for capitalism remains solidly in the majority overall, but support is clearly dissipating among young voters and a substantial portion of the electorate - which likely aligns quite considerably to "swing voters" - appear comfortable with a "mix" between capitalism and socialism.
3. Support for "the free market" remains incredibly popular, albeit there's been a notable drop among Millennials/Gen Zers.
4. While Americans aren't too comfortable with socialism as a term, socialist policies enjoy widespread support and most voters understand these policies are socialist.

Now to combine that with the current political landscape.  Although it's definitely way too premature to jump to conclusions about the role socialism played in the election, I think a number of valid assumptions can already be advanced. 

First, as pointed out by many, the GOP is going to use the socialism attack no matter what Democrats do.  Second, while employing fear-mongering of socialism clearly was successful for the GOP among Cuban and South American voters, Miami-Dade is still only damn county in the entire country.  Trump's boost among Latino voters in south Texas and throughout the rest of the country almost certainly had nothing to do with socialism and very likely simply reflects the increasing schisms among rural/urban and educated/uneducated voters.  Third, Joe Biden almost certainly did not make gains among white voters (both educated and uneducated) because they thought he was less socialist than Hillary Clinton.  This logic can be extended to Obama, who outperformed both Biden and Clinton in almost all key areas that makeup Trump's clear electoral strength over two cycles.

Also, while this doesn't have to do specifically with last week's election, the efforts of Sanders, AOC and even Warren have clearly boosted support for socialist policies and shifted the (stupidly named) "Overton window" - even if certain messaging like MFA and Defund the Police inarguably remains toxic for Democrats' national hopes.  

So, how can this decidedly conflicting information be reconciled into a cohesive strategy concerning socialism for Democrats?  Sounds pretty fucking difficult, but the obvious political answer is to split the difference.  Continue to steer clear of any explicit relationship or messaging with socialism within swing districts, states, and especially presidential nominees.  But at the same time, the left should continue to push socialist policies and even wear the badge proudly so as to ensure socialism continues to not be a liability among younger voters that will comprise most of the electorate in another 10-15 years.  

Thus, in conclusion, this "have your cake and eat it to" strategy basically requires the Democratic party continue this mudslinging wherein the "moderates" blame the "leftists" for being too extreme and uncompromisingly rigid, and the left blames the moderates for being feckless incrementalists upholding an irreparably flawed and immoral system.  Congratulations all for doing your part, carry on, and god bless America!

Did they define socialism in these surveys for the respondents? Because I bet most people when they think socialism they are not thinking the actual academic definition, but rather just high taxes, high govt spending, high govt regulation and wealth redistribution to the poor, and maybe a bit of govt surveillance thrown in for good measure. I think American support for actual socialism would probably be in the single figure %. What people are actually talking about is a capitalist system with a strong social welfare state. That's not socialism.

[The Anti-Targ]

28 minutes ago, Relic said:

This shit is going to drag on for weeks. Total shit show.

2000 wasn't finally settled until 12 Dec. And this time around we have 3, maybe 4 states that Trump wants to take through every possible channel to win.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Did they define socialism in these surveys for the respondents?

No, and they shouldn't.  If you're trying to gauge respondents' attitudes on any political idea/policy, you do not prime their responses by providing a definition.  Unless, of course, that's part of your research design, which obviously isn't the case here.

[Sci-2]

31 minutes ago, Relic said:

This shit is going to drag on for weeks. Total shit show.

I'm getting worried about the domestic terrorism this is gonna inspire.

At least even Fox News is cutting away from the nonsense the Trump admin is going on about.

[Varysblackfyre321]

@Fragile Bird

Mentioned this;https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03166-8

I have to say, this news probably made it a certainty that half the country will not get vaccinated because it came days after Trump’sdefeat.  I could see Trump railing against it out of pure spite or calculated move to avoid the perception of it being owed to Biden(which to be fair it isn't), if it begins to be distributed at the time he gets the presidency. 

 

[Mindwalker]

28 minutes ago, mormont said:

Did McEnany really try to pull the 'Hi, I'm the White House Press Secretary speaking at a press conference in the White House but I'm speaking in a personal capacity' move?

Yup.

[Sci-2]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

@Fragile Bird

Mentioned this;https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03166-8

I have to say, this news probably made it a certainty that half the country will not get vaccinated because it came days after Trump’sdefeat.  I could see Trump railing against it out of pure spite or calculated move to avoid the perception of it being owed to Biden(which to be fair it isn't), if it begins to be distributed at the time he gets the presidency. 

 

It's not owed to Trump either, they weren't part of Operation Warp Speed.

[Kalbear]

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

It's not owed to Trump either, they weren't part of Operation Warp Speed.

Agreed I get that.

I'm just saying the optics of this could be exploited to make his followers even more wary of a vaccine.

They’ll take it as even more proof that Corona is just deep state plot or whatever to make Trump look bad.

[Kalbear]

Also

 

 

[OldGimletEye]

4 minutes ago, Killjoybear said:

Also

 

 

Good thing conservatives haven't discovered post modernism. Otherwise we might get a 20 page paper (that is barely understandable), arguing that a person who didn't vote for Trump actually did vote for Trump.