GRRM is tweaking sample chapters. Desired/feared changes?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

from Not a Blog -Nov 8, 2020

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In addition to turning out new chapters, I’ve been revising some old ones (some very old)… including, yes, some stuff I read at cons ages ago, or even posted online as samples.   I tweak stuff constantly, and sometimes go beyond tweaking, moving things around, combining chapters, breaking chapters in two, reordering stuff.

So...

Are there any changes you think he should make in the published/read sample chapters? Are there any changes you think he might make, but would disagree with?

I have one desired change. In Alayne I, LF sets up a party with Alayne/Sansa in a featured position. It's a fantasy come true for Sansa. Yet remarkably, GRRM provides no description of Sansa's dress. Given that it is a Sansa POV chapter, I find this completely OOC. George needs to channel his inner Jim Rigney and provide a description.

Any others?

[Lord Varys]

The Sansa chapter is in for a major overhaul considering the last one just ended with the introduction of Harry the Heir while not making any mention of that tourney thingy. That should be more properly introduced, not to mention that Myranda Royce is curiously absent in that chapter (unless I'm misremembering) and Lord Robert acts somewhat more mature than before ... and there is also no mentioning/indication of the on-going poisoning plot.

This chapter is still very much recognizable as the first Sansa chapter to be placed after the five year gap. It doesn't yet reflect the tone and plot it would if it had been first drafted after George wrote the AFfC Sansa chapters.

I'd not be surprised if it was drastically rewritten or if another chapter was placed before that one - so that things much better align with AFfC, meaning the fact that they just arrived in the Gates of the Moon, how Sansa, Robert, Littlefinger, etc. are doing there as compared to the Eyrie, how the Royces as their hosts get along with them, and what Sansa has done with the gang in the meantime.

Not to mention that chapter was still full of typos, meaning that there are very likely to be a number of minor editorial changes going to happen there.

Arianne 1 I think is the chapter where Oberyn's backstory with the Yronwoods is mentioned in more detail. There it should be made clear that Oberyn's and Doran's mother was in charge when old Lord Edgar Yronwood died, and that she and not Doran would have been the one making the original peace with Lord Ormond Yronwood. This would be the perfect opportunity to finally name the nameless Princess of Dorne and perhaps also tell us who the hell Doran's father was. We should know from which house Doran's and Arianne's paternal cousins come from. They must be out there somewhere.

The Mercy chapter is very likely going to be changed in the Raff conversation claiming that 'the queen' still calls the shots in KL and would have Swyft's head if he returned empty-handed. That makes no sense in the context of the new placing of the chapter. One would even expect George to add some lines of the men joking about Cersei's walk of shame and slut-shaming her some more - because that's what those men would do.

I could also see him doing some combining with the battle chapters. There were two Barristan chapters - he could combine them into one.

[Nathan Stark]

I wonder if much of the revisions George is making are due to fitting the story into a single book. I have heard before that he wants to get this story finished in seven books and would prefer not to split Winds into multiple books like he had to do with Feast and Dance. I hope this doesn't mean another decade long delay. 

I haven't got much more to add to this discussion beyond hoping George cuts back some on the copius descriptions of food. This would shorten the book by about 250 pages, an added benefit.

[Cas Stark]

It's been years since I read the sample chapters, but I vaguely recall thinking that Mercy, Sansa and Arianne chapters all were somewhat rambling and unfocused and could have used a good edit to tighten them up. 

[Mithras]

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Arianne I: On the way to fAegon.

Arianne II: Still on the way to fAegon.

 

These two chapters should be combined into one.

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Barristan I: Barristan makes his battle plans. The chapter ends with the sounding of the attack.

Barristan II: Everything goes according to the plans. The only surprise is the arrival of the ironborn.

 

Either the first or the second chapter should be dropped. The battle sequence is repetitive because we heard the plans already and everything goes according to the plans. My preference would be to cut the second chapter. The surprise arrival of the ironborn should be given only once and it can take place in the Tyrion chapter.

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Tyrion I: Tyrion and BBP play cyvasse. They talk. Surprise arrival of the ironborn.

Tyrion II: The Second Sons turn their cloaks once again.

 

The first chapter should be dropped. Surprise arrival of the ironborn and Barristan's charge (i.e. the fact that everything went according to the plans we learned in Barristan I) can be provided in a couple of paragraphs when the Yunkish envoy (soon to be killed by Jorah) comes to the Second Sons to summon them.

Victarion I is also very poor. Need more meat in that chapter, which means it should be combined with his second chapter.

To conclude, I could have forgiven GRRM sparing some 5+ chapters to the resolution of Battle of Fire if he managed to squeeze them in ADwD where they rightfully belonged but he can't waste so much TWoW page space for this battle which is truly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

[SeanF]

I agree that the battle of Meereen needs to be pruned down.  I don't think it requires more than four chapters.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I fully agree with everyone who calls for tightening/condensing the narrative, especially Mithras's analysis. And at Meereen, each of the three POVs gets a pre-battle chapter, two get a 1st battle chapter, and the battle isn't done yet.

Lord Varys - Randa Royce was definitely in Alayne I - she ran with Alayne to see Harry arrive.

Does the Theon chapter need changes concerning ravenry? I seem to remember some posters having concerns, but don't remember the details.

[talvikorppi]

It's GRRM's story so my fears/desires don't really enter into it.

However, I agree with several commenters above that some of the sample chapters could probably be combined and/or tightened a bit.

My number one fear is that GRRM does a major overhaul, which necessitates major revision and rewrite (= more time), but from his post that doesn't seem to be the case.

Changing the order of the chapters will require tweaks, for instance to avoid spoiling reveals from chapters that have been moved further along, that doesn't seem too major.

At least it seems he's picking up steam again after a slower period in August/September. I wish him all the best in his work, however long it takes. It's frustrating to wait for years but something as creative and complex as ASOIAF can't be forced.

[talvikorppi]

12 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I wonder if much of the revisions George is making are due to fitting the story into a single book. I have heard before that he wants to get this story finished in seven books and would prefer not to split Winds into multiple books like he had to do with Feast and Dance. I hope this doesn't mean another decade long delay. 

I haven't got much more to add to this discussion beyond hoping George cuts back some on the copius descriptions of food. This would shorten the book by about 250 pages, an added benefit.

Yeah, GRRM describing TWOW as "a big, big book" gave me pause. There are practical, physical limits as to how big a book can be. That was one of the reasons AFFC/ADWD were split and published as two different books (years apart...)

Whatever happens, I don't want another AFFC/ADWD type split along POV/geography lines!

I'm not all that knowledgeable about publishing so can't say how feasible or desireable it would be to publish TWOW in two volumes, and whether simultaneously or maybe a year or two apart would be preferrable (to the publisher - we fans would want everything ASAP :-D )

[sifth]

We really don't need two chapters of Arianne walking to Faegon's camp. At this point in time the last thing we need are traveling chapters..................we got more then enough of those from Tyrion in the last book.

[Amris]

13 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

It's been years since I read the sample chapters, but I vaguely recall thinking that Mercy, Sansa and Arianne chapters all were somewhat rambling and unfocused and could have used a good edit to tighten them up. 

The Mercy chapter is great. One of the best ASoIaF I have ever read. However yeah, the Sansa Chapter could be tightened. And the Arianne one skipped altogether.

[Amris]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

We really don't need two chapters of Arianne walking to Faegon's camp. At this point in time the last thing we need are traveling chapters..................we got more then enough of those from Tyrion in the last book.

The travellogue problem arises IMO because GRRM's wish to tell us readers certain background info (otherwise known as infodumping) collides with his technique of only ever giving info through POV characters.

That leaves him only 2 options: 1) no infodumps or 2) give infodumps through POV characters especially and only created for this purpose.

He goes with option 2).

So in between great storyline chapters we now and again get these longish slow chapters that don't really seem to contribute to the story except for giving us hidden background info here and there that he for some reason thinks we should have.

I wish he'd gone with option 1) and cut the infodumps. I'd rather not have some back info and see the story advance than have the story get bogged down just so I know something that I otherwise wouldn't. But that's me. I am sure there are readers there that love to get any info they can any way they can.

[SeanF]

I loved Arianne I, dealing with her resentments towards Quentyn, her projection of her darker thoughts on to Daenerys, and the reveal that it's now only a question of when, not whether, Dorne goes to war, and that it's in her hands.

[Lord Varys]

Don't expect much messing with the Arianne chapters. They are pretty well written, and most of that is necessary to build up stuff. And she is a main character now, meaning her chapters are likely to increase rather than be reduced.

And there is a lot of important buildup stuff in those chapters - the foreshadowing of the Second Dance of the Dragons with the Toland girl, the eerie empty caves of the Children of the Forest (which likely sets the tone for future revelations about them), more details on the Golden Company, etc.

Arianne 1 is likely going to be one of the first chapters of the book along with the first Sansa and first Samwell chapter (George has to catch up with them). And there might be a Davos, a Cersei, a Connington, a Melisandre, or some battle chapter before we cut back to Arianne.

But George is going to move around the timeline considerable, one imagines. It stands to reason that the events of the Epilogue must also be mentioned in Arianne 2 considering Lysono Maar and Haldon know that the Tyrells are coming for Storm's End.

You have to remember that Arianne 1-3 were written for ADwD, meaning they would have taken place prior to the Epilogue - which means the Epilogue itself was rewritten when the Arianne chapters were cut so as to fit in a scenario where Storm's End wasn't yet fallen (because as things stand Arianne 3, already written but never shown to us, would have depicted Arianne's arrival at Storm's End) or King Tommen's administration was not about to deploy Tyrell troops against Aegon. If the information of Arianne 2 is accurate then Kevan/Mace must have agreed to attack Aegon before Kevan was murdered. Because the information available in Arianne 2 couldn't have reached Griffin's Roost before the events in the Epilogue took place.

In fact, I'd imagine that the thing Mace and Kevan were originally discussing in the Epilogue was the fall of Storm's End, not the fall of Griffin's Roost.

In that sense, originally Varys' attack on Kevan and Pycelle was likely a ploy to short-circuit/delay an actually planned deployment of troops but in the published novel Varys acts before any concrete plans are made.

Which means as for the KL chronology we will probably move into 2-3 Cersei chapters before any troops are moved at all, since they will first have to learn about Storm's End (which is going to be covered in real time by another Connington chapter), deal with the aftermath of the double murder, and go through with one or both queen trials before they can even think about deploying troops. And then it will depend on how many troops can be sent with KL about to explode in an uprising - or there already being fighting on the streets if relations between the Faith and the Iron Throne continue to deteriorate.

If things go that way, Arianne really has all the time in the world to travel.

2 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Lord Varys - Randa Royce was definitely in Alayne I - she ran with Alayne to see Harry arrive.

Ah, yes, right, but we don't get the feeling that their story picks up where it had been left off.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't expect much messing with the Arianne chapters. They are pretty well written, and most of that is necessary to build up stuff. And she is a main character now, meaning her chapters are likely to increase rather than be reduced.

 

And you know this how? Are you GRRM or are you just taking blind guesses...................like you usually do. GRRM stated that he wrote 2 Arianne chapters for ADWD, not 3 and removed them because they didn't fit the narrative well. Considering these are likely the chapters released to us, I honestly agree with him, they don't. I can easily see them being combined into one much shorter chapter, that helps pace the story better.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

And you know this how? Are you GRRM or are you just taking blind guesses...................like you usually do. GRRM stated that he wrote 2 Arianne chapters for ADWD, not 3 and removed them because they didn't fit the narrative well. Considering these are likely the chapters released to us, I honestly agree with him, they don't. I can easily see them being combined into one much shorter chapter, that helps pace the story better.

There were three Arianne chapters, not just two. Two he read/gave as sample chapters, but there is a third one.

And where did George ever said the Arianne chapters don't fit the narrative well?

If there are combinations to be expected it is much more likely this will involve Barristan 1 & 2 or Tyrion 1 & 2 which might both not really work as building up tension for a battle which is long overdue and now anticlimactically placed at the beginning of a novel. That is never a great idea.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

from Not a Blog - June 27th, 2010

 

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A DANCE WITH DRAGONS just got a little shorter.

What's happened is, I've decided to move two completed chapters, from Arianne's POV, out of the present volume and into THE WINDS OF WINTER. This is something I've gone back and forth on. Arianne wasn't originally supposed to have any viewpoint chapters in DANCE at all, but there's this... hmmm, how vague do I want be? VERY vague, I think... there's this event that would of necessity provoke a Dornish reaction. The event was originally going to occur near the end of the book, but in one of my forty-seven restructures I moved it to the late middle instead. And the timeline then required that the Dornish reaction happen in this book and not the next one, so I wrote the two Arianne chapters and was going to write a third... and a chapter from another POV that would be a necessary complement to them, and...

But no, I've restructured again, and put the original precipitating event back close to the end of the book. Which means the Arianne chapters can be returned to WINDS, where I had 'em originally. It also means that I don't have to write that third Arianne chapter and the complementary chapter from the other POV... not yet, anyway... which moves DANCE two chapters closer to completion. (The move did mean I had to revise two chapters from another POV, which took place after the event in last week's draft, but now take place before said event, but fortunately that was just a matter of tweaking a couple of lines).

I suppose this is a good news/ bad news situation.

Bad news for those who want DANCE to be really, really, really long, as long as STORMS OF SWORDS or longer. This move makes DANCE four chapters (two written, one partly written, one entirely unwritten) shorter.

But it's good news for DANCE, since I'm now two chapters (the ones I hadn't finished) closer to completion. And hey, it's even good news for WINDS OF WINTER, since I now have four chapters done for that one (an Arya, a Sansa, and two Ariannes).

Just so no one else has to look it up.

[Curled Finger]

I just hope this doesn't mean fewer descriptions of food and feasts.  Gads.  

Sounds like he's tightening things up, so you might want to print those text copies now. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There were three Arianne chapters, not just two. Two he read/gave as sample chapters, but there is a third one.

And where did George ever said the Arianne chapters don't fit the narrative well?

If there are combinations to be expected it is much more likely this will involve Barristan 1 & 2 or Tyrion 1 & 2 which might both not really work as building up tension for a battle which is long overdue and now anticlimactically placed at the beginning of a novel. That is never a great idea.

He posted it on his not blog back in 2010 or 2011, it was around the time when he stated that he needed to remove two Dorne chapters from his book I believe, because a "certain event" required a response from Dorne, but alternatively he felt the chapters didn't fit well into ADWD. I'm assuming he felt Jon Con's return to his homeland was a more fitting ending to that arc. I'm more interested in where he talked about this third chapter you've brought up.

edit: never mind @Ibbison from Ibben found it.

I also agree that Ser. Barry's first battle chapter could easily be combined with his second, same with Tyrion's first two chapters. We honestly don't need any more build up to the battle at this point.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:22 AM, Lord Varys said:

Don't expect much messing with the Arianne chapters. They are pretty well written, and most of that is necessary to build up stuff. And she is a main character now, meaning her chapters are likely to increase rather than be reduced.

 

I must say I can't agree with the characterization of Arianne as "a major character". Ten characters in ASOIAF are "major characters", two of which are dead/undead - Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Cersei, and Sansa. So far Arianne has been in two books and has two POV chapters. She will have at least 3 in TWOW. She is rising toward second tier status, at best.

I agree that the two Arianne preview chapters are well written, and have much valuable content. They are particularly important for Arianne's characterization, since she was badly scanted in Feast and Dance on those grounds. (Largely due to spreading POVs across too many characters.) The lengthy descriptions of the Rainwood, and the inordinate time spent on Elia Sand, however, could be minimized or eliminated. There is no need to "set the tone" for further revelations about the CotF - if Bran's chapters haven't accomplished that, it will never be done. Arianne I & II could be reduced by around 25% and become one big chapter, with possible overflow (maybe some Elia Sand stuff) moved to Arianne III.

Arianne may have all the time in the world to travel, but GRRM has limited pages to work with if he is going to finish in two volumes.

On a further note, Arianne I has many "refresher" lines, inserted to remind the reader where the narration left off. Should those be retained or eliminated?