GRRM is tweaking sample chapters. Desired/feared changes?

[BlackLightning]

I've said this many times before in many different ways: Mercy is a chapter that absolutely must be revised, if not rewritten.

And the Meereen chapters need some major pruning. Why are there precursor, pre-battle chapters for each of the three POVs with two of the three having chapters that depict only the first part of a battle that is nowhere near being finished?

I agree with @Lord Varys in that I don't think that GRRM should mess with the Arianne chapters at all. I can understand why people feel like they should be merged into one chapter but I really feel that there is simply too much stuff discussed and introduced in those chapters and all of it important.

Case in point: the caves and tunnels and catacombs. Not only is it a callback to Ygritte's tale of Gorne and Gendel and the love shared between Ygritte and Jon, it also serves as a nod to Bael the Bard in Winterfell AND provides a way for Bran to escape/leave Bloodraven's Cave. It also works as a way of explaining how the Others and/or their monsters are suddenly popping up in the Stormlands and the Reach

3 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I must say I can't agree with the characterization of Arianne as "a major character". Ten characters in ASOIAF are "major characters", two of which are dead/undead - Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Bran, Arya, Jaime, Cersei, and Sansa. So far Arianne has been in two books and has two POV chapters. She will have at least 3 in TWOW. She is rising toward second tier status, at best.

On a further note, Arianne I has many "refresher" lines, inserted to remind the reader where the narration left off. Should those be retained or eliminated?

If Arianne is second-tier status in Winds, then I can almost guarantee that she will be sitting pretty in the first class category in Dream. If things go the way that I think that they will go, Arianne will be the Queen Consort of the Seven Kingdoms and a bitter enemy of Dany by the end of Winds. She might actually be one of the main ones instigating or fueling the war between Dany and fAegon.

We are getting another Dance of the Dragons and Arianne could play the role of Alicent Hightower to fAegon's Aegon II.

As far as the refresher lines? I think that most of them can stay because we haven't been to Dorne in a while nor have we heard from Arianne in a while. Remember the last time we heard from Arianne was the "Fire and blood" cyvasse piece moment in the last few chapters of Feast.

On 11/11/2020 at 11:22 AM, Lord Varys said:

Ah, yes, right, but we don't get the feeling that their story picks up where it had been left off.

Because it doesn't.

That's why it needs to be revisited. Alayne I feels like there is at least a "One year later..." cue card right before it.

On 11/10/2020 at 7:49 PM, Nathan Stark said:

I haven't got much more to add to this discussion beyond hoping George cuts back some on the copius descriptions of food. This would shorten the book by about 250 pages, an added benefit.

LOL

Winter is here so there's going to be a lot less food in the realm. I imagine there might actually be copious descriptions of the lack of food, of how hungry the characters are, of what the characters are craving and how much that the characters miss the times when there was so much different types of delicious foods to be eaten.

 

On 11/11/2020 at 8:46 AM, talvikorppi said:

Yeah, GRRM describing TWOW as "a big, big book" gave me pause. There are practical, physical limits as to how big a book can be. That was one of the reasons AFFC/ADWD were split and published as two different books (years apart...)

Whatever happens, I don't want another AFFC/ADWD type split along POV/geography lines!

I'm not all that knowledgeable about publishing so can't say how feasible or desireable it would be to publish TWOW in two volumes, and whether simultaneously or maybe a year or two apart would be preferrable (to the publisher - we fans would want everything ASAP :-D )

The standards of how big a book can be have changed since 2010

I am almost sure that A Dream of Spring will be biblical in length. I'm not kidding.

 

[Amris]

14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I've said this many times before in many different ways: Mercy is a chapter that absolutely must be revised, if not rewritten.

[snip]

 

Mercy is my fav ASoIaF chapter ever. To me it is perfect. So perfect that I have read it over and over again just to enjoy it. So I am curious: Why do you think it has to be revised or rewritten even?

[Lord Varys]

Arianne is a main character in the sense that like quite a few of the others who were originally imagined as temporal POVs - and did thus get not proper name chapter titles - she is now promoted to a normal POV.

And she is arguably the most important of the new AFfC POVs aside from Brienne and Cersei, especially in light of the things the plot seems to have in store for her. We can expect her to become one/the main antagonist of Daenerys in the Second Dance of the Dragons and possibly the most important POV at Aegon's court considering she is very likely going to become his wife.

My general point about Arianne 2 profiting from some revision regarding the Tyrell thing stands. It will now take place after the Epilogue and if Maar and Haldon have information about a Tyrell army moving against Aegon at Storm's End, then they also should have information about what transpired at court with Pycelle and Kevan. Especially since their source for the information about the Tyrell army would be Varys and his people.

One should also think about the obvious impact the murder of the Lord Regent should have on King Tommen's standing with his lords and subjects. When Tywin Lannister died, Lord Borrell chose to spare Davos' life and every plotter and lowlife in the Realm started to sharpen their knives ... once people (especially those with Aegon or leaning towards his cause, like the Martells) learn about what has happened, they will be even more motivated to take up arms against Tommen's regime than before.

I doubt that George is going to miss the opportunity to use Kevan's death as a further motivational point for Arianne to join with Aegon. But then, technically, they could wait with that revelation until Arianne is safely at Storm's End.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Arianne may have all the time in the world to travel, but GRRM has limited pages to work with if he is going to finish in two volumes.

George doesn't work like that. If his priority were to finish the story in two more volumes AFfC/ADwD would have been completely different books. He may hope to pull that off - foolishly, of course - but he writes for the benefit of the grand story he is trying to tell, not to limit the number of chapters or pages.

He does take out things he considers superfluous or tone down clues, making them less obvious (like with Illyrio's chests and them no longer talking about a sword).

That said, we do see different chapter breaks when comparing readings/sample chapters of ADwD and the final book. The Dany and Tyrion chapters we got glimpses at were quite heavily revised, shuffled around, and some did get different chapter breaks.

We can suspect something similar for the TWoW chapters especially since the ones we know where written ten years ago or more - Mercy/Alayne most likely twenty years ago by now - and were originally supposed to be part of one of the earlier books. Now they have to fit with the story told in TWoW and as that unfolds it is very likely to have ripple effects on quite a few early chapters.

Tyrion's mushrooms weren't a part of the first drafts of his second chapters as far as we know, for instance.

19 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

On a further note, Arianne I has many "refresher" lines, inserted to remind the reader where the narration left off. Should those be retained or eliminated?

Considering that the chapter is now going to be one of the first chapters in the book we should expect quite a few refresher lines. In fact, especially Theon 1 might be revised to remind the casual reader what's going on there, giving us more of reminiscing Theon as he dangles at those chains. It is a very dense and fast-paced chapter but you don't put such chapters at the beginning of a novel.

And thinking along that line, this could also mean Barristan and Victarion and Tyrion will do some more memory work - although not very effective work in Vic's case. In that sense I expect that the whole cyvasse gave thing is going to stay in there to help with that, just as Barristan's battle preparations will also remain so that the reader learns again/remembers what the factions and stakes are and who the important people are he should keep track of.

You have to keep in mind that most people reading the book won't have spent 10+ years analyzing and discussing the work. People need to be able to follow the plot and plunge into the story without having (re-)read ADwD yesterday. And since George refuses to include a summary at the beginning of the novel he has to include this memory stuff in the chapters - and he mostly does that in the first chapters of each POV. For instance, we can expect Cersei 1 to be pretty much a more deranged version of AFfC Cersei 1, with Cersei having another nightmare and being woken yet again by somebody to learn that another close relative was murdered. And then most of her introspection in the chapter will revolve around the walk of shame and what it did to her and what she intended to do to avenge herself and what she thinks/fears is going to happen to her now, etc.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

You have to keep in mind that most people reading the book won't have spent 10+ years analyzing and discussing the work.

What's the matter with those people? 

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I've said this many times before in many different ways: Mercy is a chapter that absolutely must be revised, if not rewritten.

Oh, I don't expect much revising there. That chapter contains some of the best prose George wrote so far and a lot of work went into it. He is not going to rewrite that on a grand scale. But the Swyft/Raff stuff I mentioned is likely going to be tweaked somewhat.

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

And the Meereen chapters need some major pruning. Why are there precursor, pre-battle chapters for each of the three POVs with two of the three having chapters that depict only the first part of a battle that is nowhere near being finished?

As I mentioned in the new post, people have to be brought back into the story, meaning we should rather expecting the early chapters to be expanded to better serve as the first chapters in a new book - especially Theon 1 - rather than them being cut down in size or content as if they still were the final chapters of a big novel.

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It also works as a way of explaining how the Others and/or their monsters are suddenly popping up in the Stormlands and the Reach.

If that were to happen then any rational person would stop reading the novels. There are not going to be tunnels connecting the Stormlands and Reach with the lands beyond the Wall.

Conceptually I think the emptiness and sadness of the caverns are clues as to what ultimately may motivate/drive the Others or the forces behind them (if there are some rogue greenseers/Children behind them).

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

That's why it needs to be revisited. Alayne I feels like there is at least a "One year later..." cue card right before it.

Yeah, and with essentially no references to what happened in AFfC. The chapter still feels as if it was the first chapter after the five year gap - and unlike Mercy Sansa is not as disconnected from herself as Arya is while playing the role of an actress. Alayne should reference what she and Littlefinger did earlier, but there is pretty much nothing of that there.

[sifth]

You all are assume Arianne simply wont be another red herring POV character like her brother was. I remember back in the day when that first Quentyn chapter was revealed and all the crazy theories about how Dany was going to form an alliance with Dorne and we all know how that turned out. I know, I know, this was before any of us knew about Young Griff and the abomination that was the tv show, but it still taught me to never predict what GRRM is going to do with any of these characters.

That being said, what exactly do we need Arianne as a POV for? We have Jon Con telling most of Young Griff's story, so it's certainly not for that.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

You all are assume Arianne simply wont be another red herring POV character like her brother was. I remember back in the day when that first Quentyn chapter was revealed and all the crazy theories about how Dany was going to form an alliance with Dorne and we all know how that turned out. I know, I know, this was before any of us knew about Young Griff and the abomination that was the tv show, but it still taught me to never predict what GRRM is going to do with any of these characters.

That being said, what exactly do we need Arianne as a POV for? We have Jon Con telling most of Young Griff's story, so it's certainly not for that.

Jon Connington is a dead man walking. He is a POV with an expiration date, not Arianne Martell. Even more so in light of that fact that female POVs don't exactly tend to die like flies in this series, just as women in general (unless they are pregnant, of course).

Also, one can expect that once Aegon's people are in the field - both for the original campaign to take KL as well as for later fighting - that Aegon and Arianne won't be together. If Connington lives he is likely going to command armies or accompany Aegon in the field, while Arianne will stay at court, possibly running the government in Aegon's absence.

Nobody back before AFfC thought Dany and Quentyn would fall in love. There were ideas that there might be a marriage alliance, but the question who Dany might pick from her many suitors was always up in the air. Especially while we thought that Tyrion would bring Aegon to Daenerys.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody back before AFfC thought Dany and Quentyn would fall in love. There were ideas that there might be a marriage alliance, but the question who Dany might pick from her many suitors was always up in the air. Especially while we thought that Tyrion would bring Aegon to Daenerys.

Jon Con has a very, VERY slow expiration date. Greyscale kills really slowly. The guy likely has 4 or 5 years left in him and probably at least 2 more for him to be able to hide it. So assuming there aren't any major time skips, I'm not too worried for Jon Con dying from greyscale any time soon. 

Dany did not have many suitors before AFFC, she had many suitors during ADWD. There's a huge difference. I said nothing about love, many assumed she would form an alliance with Dorne, to get a safe place for her to land for her invasion. These theories were very common after AFFC and while each new sample chapter for ADWD was coming out. I mean her other choices were, stay in Meereen and do nothing, go with Vic and get rapped or head back home marry a prince and get his army to help you get her birth right back. Given that logic the choice seemed simple, yet she made the completely illogical choice and stayed in Meereen.

I mean Aegon's entire story is honestly just one massive mcguffin to get Dany to Westeros. I mean the guy was removed entirely from the show, so I do wonder just how important he will be for the over all narrative. Not that I agree with the choices the show made and think all of them are right, but the fact that this entire plot was removed does make me wonder. Maybe part of me still thinks it's silly how he randomly just shows up out of nowhere in the 5th book, with the only foreshadowing we have for him being Aegon's death getting described in every out book and Dany getting some very vague prophecy about a "murmmers dragon", but that's just me.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Jon Con has a very, VERY slow expiration date. Greyscale kills really slowly. The guy likely has 4 or 5 years left in him and probably at least 2 more for him to be able to hide it. So assuming there aren't any major time skips, I'm not too worried for Jon Con dying from greyscale any time soon.

Jon Connington is mortally ill and it has been made quite clear that (1) his illness makes him a pariah if it is ever discovered, meaning they might kill him or force to kill himself if they ever realize what he has become, even more so if he were to infect other people which he is likely going to do, too (possibly even with the more deadly strain of greyscale, the grey plague) (2) his illness already caused him to abandon caution since he knows times is running out for him ... which means he might start doing reckless things, possibly leading to him dying in battle.

But then ... in general multiple POVs make the story more complex. We would not have wanted only Sansa's or Ned's POV at KL in AGoT, no? Meaning it wouldn't be bad for the story or superficial if both Jon and Arianne covered Aegon's court ... assuming they would all stick together which is, as I said, not all that likely in the long run.

As things stand, the Second Dance could start because Arianne - as Aegon's regent in KL/the person calling the shots - makes the decision to attack Daenerys without double-checking with Aegon/Connington first (who might be in the field when such a call has to be made). She is the one who is going to be very angry when she hears about Quentyn's death ... while Jon is still determined to include Daenerys in the new Targaryen regime when she ever shows up.

Quote

Dany did not have many suitors before AFFC, she had many suitors during ADWD. There's a huge difference. I said nothing about love, many assumed she would form an alliance with Dorne, to get a safe place for her to land for her invasion. These theories were very common after AFFC and while each new sample chapter for ADWD was coming out. I mean her other choices were, stay in Meereen and do nothing, go with Vic and get rapped or head back home marry a prince and get his army to help you get her birth right back. Given that logic the choice seemed simple, yet she made the completely illogical choice and stayed in Meereen.

Actually, we had reports from ADwD chapters even before AFfC came out/around that time, and those reports told us about both Quaithe's prophecy about the suitors as well as Tyrion hooking up with guys named Griff and Young Griff (what changed in the final version was the addition of Moqorro in the prophecy). We knew about the Aegon plot back then, and we expected that Vic, Aegon, Quent, Tyrion, etc. would vie for Dany's attention ... but this was never a problem conceptually due to Targaryen polygamy. Like Aegon I and Maegor Daenerys could - and still can - take multiple spouses.

And, of course, we learned about Euron wanting Dany as his wife and Vic going in his stead back in AFfC.

If Aegon and Quentyn had shown up roughly at the same time she could have married them both.

And an invasion in Dorne? Who ever thought Dany would land there? So she can march her completely unprepared armies through a blasting desert and narrow mountain passes? Nobody trying to win the Iron Throne would ever land in or first take possession of Dorne.

If Dany had made a deal with Quentyn then she would have demanded/expected that Dorne support her landing with troops attacking her enemies on the mainland ... like Arianne and Doran intended to do for Quentyn and will now, most likely, do for Aegon.

Daenerys is going to try to land at or close to KL to take the Iron Throne and subdue her enemies afterwards. Whether that's going to work is another question, but nobody is going to plan to land at the far end of Westeros so that they have to cross half or more of the continent (and perhaps subdue scores of noble houses and conquer dozens of castles) if they can also take their ships to the place where the ultimate price is waiting.

And the logic of a succession/restoration war is that once a pretender has claimed the throne people will/are expected to bend the knee. There might still be rebellions and stuff but if you have the throne chances are pretty good that your enemies decrease rather than increase.

If Dany or Aegon or any pretender (think Euron) wasted their time by conquering Dorne or the Reach or whatnot they would make themselves look like doomed pretenders and outlaws, not like leaders who are viewed as people who could seize the throne.

Quote

I mean Aegon's entire story is honestly just one massive mcguffin to get Dany to Westeros. I mean the guy was removed entirely from the show, so I do wonder just how important he will be for the over all narrative. Not that I agree with the choices the show made and think all of them are right, but the fact that this entire plot was removed does make me wonder. Maybe part of me still thinks it's silly how he randomly just shows up out of nowhere in the 5th book, with the only foreshadowing we have for him being Aegon's death getting described in every out book and Dany getting some very vague prophecy about a "murmmers dragon", but that's just me.

Nah, Dany's mcguffin to Westeros is the fact that she is a Targaryen and her brother told her that it was their duty to get back their father's throne. Dany would eventually go to Westeros even if there were no Aegon because she wants to ... and because a lot of Westerosi people unconnected to the Aegon stuff are searching her out. The Aegon plot we got is to set up another Targaryen civil war, the Second Dance of the Dragons. It is a plot how two people who could have married each other and united their forces end up not doing that but fighting each other.

The show has no bearing on any of that because they changed the story.

Very few people discussing things back in the day were surprised by the Aegon plot (although there were quite a few who disliked the idea). This thing was in the story since AGoT (Varys & Illyrio's weird/unclear interest in a Targaryen restoration/Dothraki invasion) and made pretty explicit by the cloth dragon vision in ACoK. People long ago wondered whether Prince Aegon was truly dead or whether somebody could show up claiming to be him, especially since Rhaegar's children come up again and again in the novels.

And then George went out of his way describing the looks of Rhaegar's children to us, telling us that Aegon had inherited his father's Valyrian looks while Rhaenys favored her mother, meaning a real/fake Aegon would have the potential to pose as a convincing Targaryen and rallying support to his cause. Something he would not be able to do if he had looked like his mother ... just as nobody is likely going to buy or care about the idea that Jon Snow is a Targaryen on his father's side in light of the fact that he looks nothing like him.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If that were to happen then any rational person would stop reading the novels. There are not going to be tunnels connecting the Stormlands and Reach with the lands beyond the Wall.

Fully agree. That sounds like the Ways out of WoT.

[Lord Varys]

You can check the dates for the original reports on the ADwD chapter readings. The oldest ones covering Dany's and Tyrion's chapters were first posted two days before the US publication date of AFfC. In the UK the book appeared in October, so I had already read it by then, and I still first getting to those boards and eventually registrating after going on the net and looking for information on the soon-to-be-published ADwD...

Here is the link:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/forum/14-pre-adwd-archive/

Edit: Oh, shit, those readings are much older. Tyrion 1 was first reported about in 2001. I assume the reports were posted by other people to move them when the forum software, etc. changed somewhere in the 2000s.

Meaning our first information about ADwD goes back to the time when George still planned to publish ADwD without an AFfC. Back when he thought all the POVs would be in the book there would be no reason to not read a Dany or Tyrion chapter at this or that con ... or not use any of those chapters for a sample chapter on his home page or some other venue.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One should also think about the obvious impact the murder of the Lord Regent should have on King Tommen's standing with his lords and subjects. When Tywin Lannister died, Lord Borrell chose to spare Davos' life and every plotter and lowlife in the Realm started to sharpen their knives ... once people (especially those with Aegon or leaning towards his cause, like the Martells) learn about what has happened, they will be even more motivated to take up arms against Tommen's regime than before.

Borrell spared Davos because Tywin was succeeded by Cersei instead of Kevan. At the end of ADWD, everyone seems to be breathing a sigh of relief since Kevan is back. What will happen in the morning when Kevan and Pycelle are found dead? Mace will declare himself regent. You can take that to the Iron Bank.

Of course, the Lord Oaf of Highgarden will likely destroy himself before much of the realm has a chance to react.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I will say that I do like the idea of having both Arianne and JonCon as POV characters. They are likely to have conflicting views on many issues, and will struggle to see who can influence Faegon the most. That makes for interesting reading. I suspect Arianne will win that battle.

I do seem to have less confidence in Faegon's long term prospects than some here. He will certainly have early success, but I guess I have more confidence in Cersei's long term staying power than others here do. Although this might start to exceed the scope of the thread.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I will say that I do like the idea of having both Arianne and JonCon as POV characters. They are likely to have conflicting views on many issues, and will struggle to see who can influence Faegon the most. That makes for interesting reading. I suspect Arianne will win that battle.

I do seem to have less confidence in Faegon's long term prospects than some here. He will certainly have early success, but I guess I have more confidence in Cersei's long term staying power than others here do. Although this might start to exceed the scope of the thread.

Cersei certainly will survive and remain a power since she is the Lady of Casterly Rock, but she will lose KL and the Iron Throne. With Euron she might be able to take both back ... or not. But that's something for ADoS, one imagines, or whatever book comes next.

21 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Borrell spared Davos because Tywin was succeeded by Cersei instead of Kevan. At the end of ADWD, everyone seems to be breathing a sigh of relief since Kevan is back. What will happen in the morning when Kevan and Pycelle are found dead? Mace will declare himself regent. You can take that to the Iron Bank.

Borrell didn't know for sure who would run the Realm now. Cersei was the Queen Regent before, after all, with Tywin technically serving as Hand at her pleasure, not the other way around. His absence is what gave Borrell pause ... and not just him, Manderly and the Umbers and the Martells and Tyrells and pretty much everybody started to seriously plot against the Lannisters then. Everybody is more confident hedging their bets, taking a back seat, or secretly or openly making their moves.

And this is going to get even worse with Kevan and Pycelle being murdered as well. Even if Mace and Cersei were working together afterwards - which they won't - the impression after that in the eyes of the world will be that these people are so weak and incompetent that they cannot prevent that the people in charge at court are murdered. First Joffrey, then Tywin, and now finally Kevan and Pycelle.

That could trigger a complete disintegration of Tommen's government.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Borrell didn't know for sure who would run the Realm now. Cersei was the Queen Regent before, after all, with Tywin technically serving as Hand at her pleasure, not the other way around. His absence is what gave Borrell pause ...

 

Incorrect. I'll refresh your memory.

ADWD Davos I

 

Quote

 

"Who rules now in King's Landing? Not Tommen, he is just a child. Is it Ser Kevan?"

 

Candlelight gleamed in Lord Godric's black eyes. "If it were, you'd be in chains. It's the queen who rules."

 

Davos understood. He nurses doubts. He does not want to find himself upon the losing side. "Stannis held Storm's End against the Tyrells and the Redwynes. He took Dragonstone from the last Targaryens. He smashed the Iron Fleet off Fair Isle. This child king will not prevail against him."

 

 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Very few people discussing things back in the day were surprised by the Aegon plot (although there were quite a few who disliked the idea). This thing was in the story since AGoT (Varys & Illyrio's weird/unclear interest in a Targaryen restoration/Dothraki invasion) and made pretty explicit by the cloth dragon vision in ACoK. People long ago wondered whether Prince Aegon was truly dead or whether somebody could show up claiming to be him, especially since Rhaegar's children come up again and again in the novels.

And then George went out of his way describing the looks of Rhaegar's children to us, telling us that Aegon had inherited his father's Valyrian looks while Rhaenys favored her mother, meaning a real/fake Aegon would have the potential to pose as a convincing Targaryen and rallying support to his cause. Something he would not be able to do if he had looked like his mother ... just as nobody is likely going to buy or care about the idea that Jon Snow is a Targaryen on his father's side in light of the fact that he looks nothing like him.

I don't mean to get off topic, but I just don't buy this was planned. It was clear as day in the earlier books that Illyrio and Varys supported Dany and Viseries, I mean heck Illyrio gave Dany the 3 dragon eggs, which were worth a small fortune and then sent Ser. Barry to help her. The fact that "his real plan" was to support someone else the entire time, just comes off as half assed when you really think about how much money and resources he put into helping Dany and to a lesser extent her brother before he was killed by his own stupidity. 

Also using a description of a dead person to foreshadow their return is a moot point in this series. Some of the most interesting characters in this series are the dead ones, I mean heck you hear Rhaegar's description all the time, are we expecting him to suddenly be alive again?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I don't mean to get off topic, but I just don't buy this was planned. It was clear as day in the earlier books that Illyrio and Varys supported Dany and Viseries, I mean heck Illyrio gave Dany the 3 dragon eggs, which were worth a small fortune and then sent Ser. Barry to help her. The fact that "his real plan" was to support someone else the entire time, just comes off as half assed when you really think about how much money and resources he put into helping Dany and to a lesser extent her brother before he was killed by his own stupidity. 

 

I sympathize, but that seems to be the way GRRM works. He originally envisioned three books, each of about 800 MS pages. (maybe 500 pages in paperback.) But he seems to have left his options open. The way he dealt with Aegon VI's death always allowed for the possibility of a fake death or a pretender. As the series grew, he pulled the trigger on that option.

True story - I loaned my books to my sister, who is a conservative, devout Catholic. (Me, I'm a liberal atheist.) She read the first two, and gave up sometime during Storm, saying she "didn't like all the rapes." The story was just too rough for her. But after reading Game, she did say, "That kid who got his head smashed against the wall? He's alive, and will reappear."

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

Incorrect. I'll refresh your memory.

ADWD Davos I

Oh, but he couldn't know who Cersei would appoint as Hand, nor who would actually do the ruling? He believed she was the one in charge because she was the regent but technically that's sort of odd since she was also de iure ruling while Tywin ruled ... yet Tywin's accomplishments apparently weren't Cersei's for some reason. The important thing for Borrell hedging his bets is that Tywin, the big alpha male guy he thought was in charge, is gone. That he sort of thinks Cersei is/will remain in charge at a time when he has no idea who would be the next Hand is kind of weird. If Kevan or Mace or even Jaime had gotten the post he may have not viewed Cersei as being in charge ... just as he didn't when Tywin was Hand.

But overall - the point was that the Tywin thing was already a debacle with him being unable to prevent Joff's and his own death at the hands of his own son. Now Kevan failed at that, too, and the Queen Regent got herself turned into a publicly humiliated slut. These people look ridiculously impotent and done.

14 hours ago, sifth said:

I don't mean to get off topic, but I just don't buy this was planned. It was clear as day in the earlier books that Illyrio and Varys supported Dany and Viseries, I mean heck Illyrio gave Dany the 3 dragon eggs, which were worth a small fortune and then sent Ser. Barry to help her. The fact that "his real plan" was to support someone else the entire time, just comes off as half assed when you really think about how much money and resources he put into helping Dany and to a lesser extent her brother before he was killed by his own stupidity. 

Go reread the chapters of AGoT where Dany gives us her impression on Illyrio's loyalty towards her brother ... and how she questions his motives. We are never given any real reason why either Varys or Illyrio should back as unpromising a man as Viserys III.

The other thing is the conversation Arya overhears. That makes it clear that they want a Dothraki invasion, but it doesn't tell us who they want on the throne ... or why they want that invasion to occur. You can ignore or overlook that, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Those are blank spaces waiting to be filled.

Selmy is not sent to help Dany, but to fetch her back to Pentos ... to marry her to Aegon.

The dragon eggs are a mystery point so far, but there will be an explanation for this, and we don't know which road George is going to take there.

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Also using a description of a dead person to foreshadow their return is a moot point in this series. Some of the most interesting characters in this series are the dead ones, I mean heck you hear Rhaegar's description all the time, are we expecting him to suddenly be alive again?

Oh, no. The whole description thing was something George gave outside of the novels, of course. In-universe we just had the fact that the child was killed in a manner that made identification impossible ... which leaves room for the kind of plot we got.

Not to mention this kind of plot being very prominent in the real world events inspiring the series ... as well as the historical novels/books influencing the actual writing process (the Druon and Costain stuff). In addition to the general 'hidden prince' fantasy trope.

[Mithras]

Blackfyres did not exist when AGoT was published. Varys in AGoT was a totally different character with still unknown motives. If I had to guess, I would assume that this original Varys was the equivalent if Pryrates from Memory, Sorrow & Thorn who was a mysterious priest and advisor to king. He was secretly trying to revive the Night's King equivalent in that story. Perhaps that is why Varys wanted the Dothraki invasion: to start a war of attrition and made the Realm bleed so that the invasion of the Others would be easier. This sits well with rather blatant clues in AGoT implying that Varys was a sorcerer.