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Mario Seddy

Which bloodline is older?

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By their founding myths house Gardener bc their founder Garth the Gardener was son of Garth Greenhand who was first king of First Men and might have even been literally first "human" in Westeros. Or I assume that Gardeners existed b4 Long Night.

House Stark was founded thousands of years later after Long Night by Brandon the Builder.

 

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Easily the Gardeners. The Daynes and the Lannisters may have came around during the Long Night but the Gardeners seem to predate the Long Night by many, many years.

I've heard someone somewhere (likely on Reddit) than Brandon of the Bloody Blade might actually be a Stark ancestor.

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25 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I've heard someone somewhere (likely on Reddit) than Brandon of the Bloody Blade might actually be a Stark ancestor.

Yeah, that is a claim made in the Reach.

House Gardener is likely the eldest generic Westerosi noble house considering the origin stories surrounding Garth the Green.

Generally, the eldest First Men kings and lords should be found in Dorne and the Reach and the Stormlands since those regions would have been the first the early First Men settled. But we don't know how early noble bloodlines formed. Could be that some ancient houses like the Gardeners were already leaders of men in the long wars with the Children of the Forest in the Age of Heroes.

With the origins of Oldtown being lost in the midst of time the Hightowers also seem to be a potential Dawn Age house, although they might be descended from Valyrian or Ghiscari or other Essosi settlers in the Whispering Sound. And the Daynes could have a similar ancestry considering that their seat is also on an island off the coast of the mainland of Westeros.

The West, the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North would have been populated much later ... and depending when exactly noble houses formed the people there would have done this later, too, considering that a very thinly populated area has no need of lords and kings or proto-feudal structures. There would have been families and clans in those years, not nobility and commoners.

The Starks actually seem to be a rather young noble houses compared to other First Men houses since their founder supposedly lived at the very end of the Age of Heroes - during or after the Long Night - since he is credited with building the Wall. Lann the Clever and Durran Godsgrief wouldn't have been (necessarily) contemporaries of Brandon the Builder.

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Likely house gardener were the first, first men kings. We can say that the reach is the best land to live on in Westeros. And it’s possible that the gardeners had the first pick of the land of all Westeros.

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7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Does it matter to the plot? 

There is a chance that somehow blood of Gardener would be important or vital. Or descendants of that bloodline are more equal that those without that blood. Or at least certain myths claim that some VIPs like Starks and Lannisters had that blood. Besides there is always an opportunity that there exists something that would not work unless person wanting to use that device had right pedigree.

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The Gardener blood is not very likely to be important, but Highgarden and the tradition there might. It is the only place south of the Wall that we know of which has a godswood with three weirwoods ... aside from the Isle of Faces.

And I expect that Garth Greenhand and the Green Men are going to be connected in some way.

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On 11/18/2020 at 9:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that is a claim made in the Reach.

House Gardener is likely the eldest generic Westerosi noble house considering the origin stories surrounding Garth the Green.

Generally, the eldest First Men kings and lords should be found in Dorne and the Reach and the Stormlands since those regions would have been the first the early First Men settled. But we don't know how early noble bloodlines formed. Could be that some ancient houses like the Gardeners were already leaders of men in the long wars with the Children of the Forest in the Age of Heroes.

With the origins of Oldtown being lost in the midst of time the Hightowers also seem to be a potential Dawn Age house, although they might be descended from Valyrian or Ghiscari or other Essosi settlers in the Whispering Sound. And the Daynes could have a similar ancestry considering that their seat is also on an island off the coast of the mainland of Westeros.

The West, the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North would have been populated much later ... and depending when exactly noble houses formed the people there would have done this later, too, considering that a very thinly populated area has no need of lords and kings or proto-feudal structures. There would have been families and clans in those years, not nobility and commoners.

The Starks actually seem to be a rather young noble houses compared to other First Men houses since their founder supposedly lived at the very end of the Age of Heroes - during or after the Long Night - since he is credited with building the Wall. Lann the Clever and Durran Godsgrief wouldn't have been (necessarily) contemporaries of Brandon the Builder.

The Hightowers are descended from the Gardeners though. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if there was some Valyrian admixture but they are First Men.

The Daynes on the other hand? lmao I think they are as Valyrian as the Targaryens and the Blackfyres are.

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4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The Hightowers are descended from the Gardeners though. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if there was some Valyrian admixture but they are First Men.

The original origin of Oldtown and the Hightowers is lost in the midst of the Dawn Age. There isn't even an origin story for the Hightowers and their city the same we have for many of the other houses. The first Hightower mentioned is King Uthor of the Hightower. He married a daughter of Garth Greenhand, Maris the Maid, and he built the first Hightower of stone ... but he wasn't the founder of the house nor the first Hightower king. He didn't even build the first Hightower, so there were Hightowers before him.

And the chances are pretty good that the ultimate origins of Oldtown and the Hightowers are to be found beyond Westeros since Oldtown supposedly was a trading port in those ancient days.

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The Daynes on the other hand? lmao I think they are as Valyrian as the Targaryens and the Blackfyres are.

The Daynes could also have origins abroad, and they seem to be as old as the Hightowers, with their history allegedly stretching back ten thousand years.

But neither of that makes Valyrian origins very likely. Valyria wasn't around in the Dawn Age as far as we know. It might have been found around/shortly after the Long Night, but not before. However, there is certainly a chance that Valyrian adventurers and explorers intermarried with early Hightowers when they first visited Westeros thousands of years ago.

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I expect that the early centuries of the migration consisted of scores of small warring clans spreading across all of Westeros and that none of the currently known families emerged until many centuries after the first humans crossed the Arm of Dorne. So humans would have established even the Fist of the Firstmen by the time House Gardener emerged as a  political entity.

So in my view the Starks and the Gardeners likely established themselves pretty much simultaneously, in different parts of Westeros.

Give or take a century or so.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So in my view the Starks and the Gardeners likely established themselves pretty much simultaneously, in different parts of Westeros.

Give or take a century or so.

Their is a possibility that Brandon the builder was the son of a gardener. Possibly making the gardeners a century or less older.

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8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I expect that the early centuries of the migration consisted of scores of small warring clans spreading across all of Westeros and that none of the currently known families emerged until many centuries after the first humans crossed the Arm of Dorne. So humans would have established even the Fist of the Firstmen by the time House Gardener emerged as a  political entity.

That idea contradicts what we are told. If Garth Greenhand was the First Man in Westeros then House Gardener is obviously much older than all the others because he founded it.

And as I said, we also know that the Daynes are supposedly going back 10,000 years, meaning into Dawn Age territory, just as the Hightowers do.

There is also no reason to believe that noble houses and kingship would have developed everywhere around the same time - in fact, that is unlikely because there would be no reason for this in less populated areas where people would have longer lived in more egalitarian clans (like they continue to beyond the Wall). This should especially true for more rural/isolated places - the Vale, the Stormlands, and the North. Chances are that there there were proto-states in the Reach and the Riverlands long before anybody thought about this kind of thing in the other regions. Not to mention that lordship and kingship would have been concepts first developed in specific areas to then being exported to other places. The fact that kings and lords are the same everywhere in Westeros points to a common origin rather than parallel societal evolution which eventually became the same everywhere.

I mean, even the Andals just adopted the First Men concept of kingship, they didn't change it at all. And the Kings in the North before the Conquest were the same as the Andal King of the Rock or the Ironborn King of the Rivers.

The Children's decision to use the Hammer of the Waters on the Neck indicates the First Men didn't establish themselves in a strong position in northern Westeros by that time - which was rather late during the war.

And of course the wars between First Men and Children necessitate some kind of broader organization on part of the First Men. They must have been able to coordinate attacks against the Children on a level that goes beyond small band warfare. In that sense the chances are pretty good that there already were First Men kingdoms in the Reach, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, Dorne, etc. in the Dawn Age.

What we know about the history of Westerlands, the Reach, and Dorne supports this. Not just what we know of the Hightowers, Daynes, and Gardeners, but also about the Casterlys - they go back to ancient times and never were kings - but the Reynes who are as old as the Casterlys were kings back before Lann the Clever came. And that's all Dawn Age or early Age of Heroes, long before the Long Night.

8 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So in my view the Starks and the Gardeners likely established themselves pretty much simultaneously, in different parts of Westeros.

Give or take a century or so.

This is even more contradictory to what we are told considering that Brandon the Builder is supposed to be descended from Brandon of the Bloody Blade, a son of Garth Greenhand. Even if this wasn't accurate the Gardeners being older than the Starks certainly could be accurate. The idea that the Starks and the Gardeners came into existence about the same time is never suggested in any published material.

There is also ample evidence that Brandon the Builder wasn't living in the North before he built Winterfell and the Wall. He is credited helping Durran Godsgrief to build Storm's End in his childhood ... if that were true, he was likely born in what would later be the Reach or the Stormlands, not the North. Children usually do not travel around all that much.

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4 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Their is a possibility that Brandon the builder was the son of a gardener. Possibly making the gardeners a century or less older.

The story goes that Brandon of the Bloody Blade - a son of Garth Greenhand - was either the father or an ancestor of Brandon the Builder. Meaning they could have lived around the same time or there could have been centuries or millennia between them.

Even if Brandon of the Bloody Blade was the father of Brandon the Builder ... with those ancient heroes living centuries or millennia (think of Garth Greenhand or the Grey King's lifespans ... and even Lann the Clever lived to the age of 312, just as Durran Godsgrief allegedly lived centuries) there could have been centuries before Brandon of the Bloody Blade fathered Brandon the Builder on some woman.

And while we can say some of those ancient legends might be just invention or superstition, we also do know that magic is real and lifespans can be magically extended (just think of Bloodraven), so you cannot really rule anything out.

But the gist of it definitely is that the Gardeners, Daynes, and Hightowers are among the oldest significant houses, and the Lannisters and Durrandons are also older than the Starks. Who are basically a house that was only founded as a noble house after the Long Night. Which isn't the case for the other houses.

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30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The story goes that Brandon of the Bloody Blade - a son of Garth Greenhand - was either the father or an ancestor of Brandon the Builder. Meaning they could have lived around the same time or there could have been centuries or millennia between them.

Even if Brandon of the Bloody Blade was the father of Brandon the Builder ... with those ancient heroes living centuries or millennia (think of Garth Greenhand or the Grey King's lifespans ... and even Lann the Clever lived to the age of 312, just as Durran Godsgrief allegedly lived centuries) there could have been centuries before Brandon of the Bloody Blade fathered Brandon the Builder on some woman.

And while we can say some of those ancient legends might be just invention or superstition, we also do know that magic is real and lifespans can be magically extended (just think of Bloodraven), so you cannot really rule anything out.

But the gist of it definitely is that the Gardeners, Daynes, and Hightowers are among the oldest significant houses, and the Lannisters and Durrandons are also older than the Starks. Who are basically a house that was only founded as a noble house after the Long Night. Which isn't the case for the other houses.

Never heard about these heroes living hundreds of years. But it is very interesting, and also very possible. According to some christian texts. Many men like Adam, and Noah lived up to 900 years of age. Whether thats true or not idk.

But in asoiaf it is certainly possible that those powerful men were able to preserve their life through magic, and live longer years. Age of heroes began with the pact between first men and children of the forest, and many first men taking up the gods of the forests. So mayhaps at the time the gods had more power than the current timeline and they were able to grant longer lifespans to these powerful men whom probably gave the gods something in return (sacrifice?). Maybe they sacrificed their own sons to the weirwoods to feed onto their lives.

Rumour is that brandon the builder built storms end for durran or like advised him. So its possible he existed at the time but as a son of a gardener and not as a stark. 

I believe brandon the builder was there to see the end of the long night and the construction of the wall. Making it possible that he was born either during the long night or shortly before it began. Maybe brandon lived hundreds of years. And once he decided to settle down, he built winterfell and founded his own house. The long night supposedly lasted a generation. Maybe that was 100 years? or 300 years. Im gonna go with 50-100 years.

Id presume that house stark was founded after the long night. Their words "winter is coming" do serve the purpose of warning people about the Others.

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These old heroes didn’t live for hundreds of years. They were normal people - small, primitive tribes with barbarian war chiefs.

Neither was Garth Greenhand the first man in Westeros.  These are just the embellished legends that exist today.

Besides, the stories themselves are contradictory. Going by these accounts Brandon the Builder lived at the same time as the first Storm King and the Hightower king who built the first stone High Tower. And he was the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade who was Garth Gardener’s brother.

So in other words maybe a 30-50 year gap in age between Garth Gardener and Brandon the Builder.

But the reality is going to be far messier than this neat story. With small chieftains popping up and being replaced all over Westeros for centuries before the currently known houses rose to power.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Never heard about these heroes living hundreds of years. But it is very interesting, and also very possible. According to some christian texts. Many men like Adam, and Noah lived up to 900 years of age. Whether thats true or not idk.

Well, to be sure, Noah and Adam definitely didn't exist. Multiple centuries and stuff in Westeros we do have for Garth Greenhand, Lann, Durran, and the Grey King. And since Garth Greenhand seems to have lived possibly millennia - if he truly was the First Man - then his children were likely also not exactly normal people, either.

But, again, it isn't clear whether Brandon the Builder is supposed to be the son or merely a descendant of Brandon of the Bloody Blade.

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

But in asoiaf it is certainly possible that those powerful men were able to preserve their life through magic, and live longer years. Age of heroes began with the pact between first men and children of the forest, and many first men taking up the gods of the forests. So mayhaps at the time the gods had more power than the current timeline and they were able to grant longer lifespans to these powerful men whom probably gave the gods something in return (sacrifice?). Maybe they sacrificed their own sons to the weirwoods to feed onto their lives.

Such things would be possible ... or those ancient people were just closer to the gods themselves than their descendants. I mean, Durran married the the daughter of two gods, and the Grey King very much counts as a living god or a demigod, at least. Garth Greenhand falls in a similar category.

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

I believe brandon the builder was there to see the end of the long night and the construction of the wall. Making it possible that he was born either during the long night or shortly before it began. Maybe brandon lived hundreds of years. And once he decided to settle down, he built winterfell and founded his own house. The long night supposedly lasted a generation. Maybe that was 100 years? or 300 years. Im gonna go with 50-100 years.

If Brandon the Builder did indeed help with the building of Storm's End, then I'd assume this happened some time before the Long Night since it doesn't make much sense to assume Durran was obsessed with building a castle while zombies and ice demons were running around. In that sense Brandon would either have had an extended lifespan, or he would have been rather old when he built Winterfell and the Wall after the Long Night ... after all we have to consider that the Long Night itself lasted for a generation, meaning Brandon would have aged at least 20-30 years while it lasted.

But that only if we go with real world generation lengths ... if people lived to 300-400 years, or even longer, on a regular basis in those days then a generation could indeed mean 50-100 years or more.

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Id presume that house stark was founded after the long night. Their words "winter is coming" do serve the purpose of warning people about the Others.

Yes, if Brandon the Builder is the founder - and that's what we are told - then the Starks only came into existence after the Long Night.

Which also fits with there being older kings in the North prior to their rising, most prominent the Barrow Kings who styled themselves 'Kings of the First Men' because they claim descent from the First King who is allegedly buried beneath the Great Barrow of Barrowton.

It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that the Barrow Kings got their somewhat bad reputation because they were not exactly leading the opposition against the Others during the Long Night ... and thus their star sank after the Others were defeated by the Last Hero and Brandon helped to build the Wall.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

These old heroes didn’t live for hundreds of years. They were normal people - small, primitive tribes with barbarian war chiefs.

Might be. Or not. We don't know. What we do know is that magic was much stronger back in those days and that the First Men must have been equal to the Children of the Forest in the magical department or they would have never been able to push them back. Breeding and primitive weapons are not match against creatures who can possess others, see everything, and use wild animals as weapons.

And if they were equal to the Children in the magical department then they certainly could also have extended their lifespans. This is a world where magic is a thing.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Neither was Garth Greenhand the first man in Westeros.  These are just the embellished legends that exist today.

Actually, the story about Garth Greenhand is likely to be pretty accurate. It seems very likely that he - and people like them, perhaps some kind of priest caste among the First Men, doing fertility rites and the like - are the origins of what would eventually become the Green Men. Garth is even desrcribed as looking the way the Green Men allegedly do ... and they are definitely do exist in the story.

And of course Garth could have been the First Man. Not saying he was, but he could have been. He was a divine being he could have been in Westeros long before the First Men ever got their asses moving.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Besides, the stories themselves are contradictory. Going by these accounts Brandon the Builder lived at the same time as the first Storm King and the Hightower king who built the first stone High Tower. And he was the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade who was Garth Gardener’s brother.

Brandon the Builder is merely said to have been descended from the Bloody Blade chap. He could have been his son or his great-great-great...-grandson.

The relative chronology indicated by all that is that the ancient heroes of the Reach - the children of Garth Greenhand - lived at an earlier age than Brandon the Builder and Durran Godsgrief. Lann the Clever would have lived in the later years of Garth Greenhand.

But regardless what those folks actually were, the chronology given still marks Brandon the Builder as a guy living at the end/after the Long Night, which marked the end of the Age of Heroes while most or all of the other heroes would have lived during that the age that bore their name. And somebody like Lann - who lived in the Age of Heroes - stole Casterly Rock from the Casterlys who, at that time, were already powerful lords ... and other old families in the West, like the Reynes, were already kings in those days.

Which means kingship and lordship arose and spread throughout most of Westeros in the Dawn Age before the Long Night even if it was or may have been much more primitive than in later days.

And in the case of the Gardeners and the Hightowers and the Daynes they may have ruled as kings even before the Dawn Age considering their alleged age.

Because, again, the Daynes are supposed to 10,000 years old, and the Hightowers are so old they even lack a mythical founder. Oldtown is older than the oldest legends of the people of Westeros.

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So in other words maybe a 30-50 year gap in age between Garth Gardener and Brandon the Builder.

But the reality is going to be far messier than this neat story. With small chieftains popping up and being replaced all over Westeros for centuries before the currently known houses rose to power.

 

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be sure, Noah and Adam definitely didn't exist. Multiple centuries and stuff in Westeros we do have for Garth Greenhand, Lann, Durran, and the Grey King. And since Garth Greenhand seems to have lived possibly millennia - if he truly was the First Man - then his children were likely also not exactly normal people, either.

But, again, it isn't clear whether Brandon the Builder is supposed to be the son or merely a descendant of Brandon of the Bloody Blade.

Such things would be possible ... or those ancient people were just closer to the gods themselves than their descendants. I mean, Durran married the the daughter of two gods, and the Grey King very much counts as a living god or a demigod, at least. Garth Greenhand falls in a similar category.

If Brandon the Builder did indeed help with the building of Storm's End, then I'd assume this happened some time before the Long Night since it doesn't make much sense to assume Durran was obsessed with building a castle while zombies and ice demons were running around. In that sense Brandon would either have had an extended lifespan, or he would have been rather old when he built Winterfell and the Wall after the Long Night ... after all we have to consider that the Long Night itself lasted for a generation, meaning Brandon would have aged at least 20-30 years while it lasted.

But that only if we go with real world generation lengths ... if people lived to 300-400 years, or even longer, on a regular basis in those days then a generation could indeed mean 50-100 years or more.

Yes, if Brandon the Builder is the founder - and that's what we are told - then the Starks only came into existence after the Long Night.

Which also fits with there being older kings in the North prior to their rising, most prominent the Barrow Kings who styled themselves 'Kings of the First Men' because they claim descent from the First King who is allegedly buried beneath the Great Barrow of Barrowton.

It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that the Barrow Kings got their somewhat bad reputation because they were not exactly leading the opposition against the Others during the Long Night ... and thus their star sank after the Others were defeated by the Last Hero and Brandon helped to build the Wall.

Might be. Or not. We don't know. What we do know is that magic was much stronger back in those days and that the First Men must have been equal to the Children of the Forest in the magical department or they would have never been able to push them back. Breeding and primitive weapons are not match against creatures who can possess others, see everything, and use wild animals as weapons.

And if they were equal to the Children in the magical department then they certainly could also have extended their lifespans. This is a world where magic is a thing.

Actually, the story about Garth Greenhand is likely to be pretty accurate. It seems very likely that he - and people like them, perhaps some kind of priest caste among the First Men, doing fertility rites and the like - are the origins of what would eventually become the Green Men. Garth is even desrcribed as looking the way the Green Men allegedly do ... and they are definitely do exist in the story.

And of course Garth could have been the First Man. Not saying he was, but he could have been. He was a divine being he could have been in Westeros long before the First Men ever got their asses moving.

Brandon the Builder is merely said to have been descended from the Bloody Blade chap. He could have been his son or his great-great-great...-grandson.

The relative chronology indicated by all that is that the ancient heroes of the Reach - the children of Garth Greenhand - lived at an earlier age than Brandon the Builder and Durran Godsgrief. Lann the Clever would have lived in the later years of Garth Greenhand.

But regardless what those folks actually were, the chronology given still marks Brandon the Builder as a guy living at the end/after the Long Night, which marked the end of the Age of Heroes while most or all of the other heroes would have lived during that the age that bore their name. And somebody like Lann - who lived in the Age of Heroes - stole Casterly Rock from the Casterlys who, at that time, were already powerful lords ... and other old families in the West, like the Reynes, were already kings in those days.

Which means kingship and lordship arose and spread throughout most of Westeros in the Dawn Age before the Long Night even if it was or may have been much more primitive than in later days.

And in the case of the Gardeners and the Hightowers and the Daynes they may have ruled as kings even before the Dawn Age considering their alleged age.

Because, again, the Daynes are supposed to 10,000 years old, and the Hightowers are so old they even lack a mythical founder. Oldtown is older than the oldest legends of the people of Westeros.

 

Not addressing all of the above right now, but just pointing out that you have the Age of Heroes wrong. It didn’t end with the Long Night. It ended with the Andal conquest. The Long Night was in the middle of the Age of Heroes. So Brandon certainly didn’t live at its end.

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Since the Gardeners no longer exist and their blood via the Reach is too diluted given their high population and their blood via the Starks (if Brandon the Builder was a bastard son of Garth Greenhand and not the Opal Emperor, half bro to Bloodstone and Amethyst) is practically non existent since millennia have passed, does their ancestry and who came first matter? 

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