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Mrstrategy

Bolton undermining starks northern manpower

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Examples of Bolton waste and treason against stark troops in war of five king

He left 600 well trained professional men to guard his lands unlike his neighbors who sent most of their trained men south with Robb Stark leaving thir lands guarded by mostly green men and a trained men and probably worse under Ramsay who he know is likely to start trouble with his neighbors and is very hard to control leading to Battle at Winterfell and 
Sack of Winterfell thats destroyed a large part of the remaining stark and stark loyalist forces as well as several of the main stark loyalist leaders of the north on top of the loses to Greyjoy attacks and raids


The Battle on the Green Fork was only suposely be only a diversion to keep Tywin lannister busy focus on the "entire"Northern army under Bolton with probably no need to engage but Bolton turned into a real battle that cost the northern army around 5000 troops made if mostly stark loyalist and houses that were no friendly to House Bolton including lord Hornwood (while house Bolton forces had no or hardly any losses)who was killed in the battle leaving hornwood with not legal claimant exept for a bastard and after that we heard that Ramsay is raiding Hornwood lands and has kinnaped lady Hornwood which is suspicious and makes me wonder if Roose Bolton did not killed lord Hornwood during the battle or allow him to be killed by lannisters 


In the Battle at Duskendale Roose bolton ordered Robett Glover,Helman Tallhart,Harrion Karstark and 3000 men all from houses loyal to house stark to march on Duskendale where they were destroyed by a larger lannister/Tyrrel army without order from Robb stark in order to weaken even more house stark and houses who were still loyal to House stark and later blamed the battle and the destruction of that part of the army on the people who comanded the northern troops and their mental status not mentioning that it was his orders that caused the nortvern troops snd their leaders to be killed or captured


In Fighting at the fords of the Trident the lannisters catch part of the Northern army at the fords while trying having problems  crossing the Trident because of floods and a 1/3 of the army gets captured/killed including one of lord Manderly sons and what makes it suspicious is that most of the killed or captured lords and Northern troops were from houses that were not friendly to house Bolton while the part of the army that escaped was made of large part of Bolton men and after the Battle Bolton order a large part of the  non Bolton part of the army made of neutral or pro stark houses  including what's most of the remaining house Hornwood men under the command of two pro stark lords to remain at the ford under orders to defend it against the lannisters army if they manage to cross the flooded ford and marching his force of mostly Bolton men to the twins to support the freys in red wedding

 

Edited by Mrstrategy

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34 minutes ago, Mrstrategy said:

Examples of Bolton waste and treason against stark troops in war of five king

He left 600 well trained professional men to guard his lands unlike his neighbors who sent most of their trained men south with Robb Stark leaving thir lands guarded by mostly green men and a trained men and probably worse under Ramsay who he know is likely to start trouble with his neighbors and is very hard to control leading to Battle at Winterfell and 
Sack of Winterfell thats destroyed a large part of the remaining stark and stark loyalist forces as well as several of the main stark loyalist leaders of the north on top of the loses to Greyjoy attacks and raids


The Battle on the Green Fork was only suposely be only a diversion to keep Tywin lannister busy focus on the "entire"Northern army under Bolton with probably no need to engage but Bolton turned into a real battle that cost the northern army around 5000 troops made if mostly stark loyalist and houses that were no friendly to House Bolton including lord Hornwood (while house Bolton forces had no or hardly any losses)who was killed in the battle leaving hornwood with not legal claimant exept for a bastard and after that we heard that Ramsay is raiding Hornwood lands and has kinnaped lady Hornwood which is suspicious and makes me wonder if Roose Bolton did not killed lord Hornwood during the battle or allow him to be killed by lannisters 


In the Battle at Duskendale Roose bolton ordered Robett Glover,Helman Tallhart,Harrion Karstark and 3000 men all from houses loyal to house stark to march on Duskendale where they were destroyed by a larger lannister/Tyrrel army without order from Robb stark in order to weaken even more house stark and houses who were still loyal to House stark and later blamed the battle and the destruction of that part of the army on the people who comanded the northern troops and their mental status not mentioning that it was his orders that caused the nortvern troops snd their leaders to be killed or captured


In Fighting at the fords of the Trident the lannisters catch part of the Northern army at the fords while trying having problems  crossing the Trident because of floods and a 1/3 of the army gets captured/killed including one of lord Manderly sons and what makes it suspicious is that most of the killed or captured lords and Northern troops were from houses that were not friendly to house Bolton while the part of the army that escaped was made of large part of Bolton men and after the Battle Bolton order a large part of the  non Bolton part of the army made of neutral or pro stark houses  including what's most of the remaining house Hornwood men under the command of two pro stark lords to remain at the ford under orders to defend it against the lannisters army if they manage to cross the flooded ford and marching his force of mostly Bolton men to the twins to support the freys in red wedding

 

I agree with all you said, except that the Battle of the Green Fork cost the Starks far more than 5000; Bolton had more than 18000 troops and he was down to 10000 in ACOK. And he seems to have lost none of his own bannermen in the fight. If Robb had known about what happened, he should have realised what Bolton was doing.

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4 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

Examples of Bolton waste and treason against stark troops in war of five king

He left 600 well trained professional men to guard his lands unlike his neighbors who sent most of their trained men south with Robb Stark leaving thir lands guarded by mostly green men

Well that is just dumb on his neighbours part. It is just dumb on Robb's part.

That is not an example of treason. The 15-year-old son of the Lord of the North either

  • did not specify how many men he wanted
  • how long they'd be gone for
  • or did and Roose knew better to listen to an inexperienced child

Roose is not to blame here. Dustin, Ryswell and Manderly are not to blame here. Robb is. Had they done what Robb and the other Northern lords did then there is a good chance that even more of the Northern castles would have been taken by invaders or rebels within the land.

4 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

and a trained men and probably worse under Ramsay who he know is likely to start trouble with his neighbors and is very hard to control leading to Battle at Winterfell and 
Sack of Winterfell thats destroyed a large part of the remaining stark and stark loyalist forces as well as several of the main stark loyalist leaders of the north on top of the loses to Greyjoy attacks and raids

I don't think he could have predicted that. Robb did not know how long he would be gone for, Roose certainly would not have known.

His bastard son a loose cannon. Why would be bring him amongst Robb and the other Northern Lords.

4 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:


The Battle on the Green Fork was only suposely be only a diversion to keep Tywin lannister busy focus on the "entire"Northern army under Bolton with probably no need to engage

No need to engage? That seems to not be true. At Moat Cailin Robb says the plan was to catch Tywin with his pants down. That is the last we hear of the plan.

Now it is possible that Robb changed the plan off screen, but given

  • Roose would be endangering his own life
  • Risking the wroth of Ned and Robb if they found out he disobeyed orders
  • That none of the other Nobles with Roose were under the impression that they were not supposed to give battle
  • That there is no indication that Robb was angry with Roose, like he was with Edmure and Glover

Then it is a reasonable assumption that Robb expected a battle, that it was a calculated loss to keep Tywin as far away from Riverrun

4 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

 

but Bolton turned into a real battle that cost the northern army around 5000 troops made if mostly stark loyalist and houses that were no friendly to House Bolton including lord Hornwood (while house Bolton forces had no or hardly any losses)

That is actually not true. He did no single out any House. The Freys are not his neighbours and yet Tyrion notices many of their banners.

While it is true he likely kept his own banners in reserve, the often repeated idea that he singled out the Northern lords closest to him is just false. The Umbers are his closest neighbours, we don't see any sign of them in the battle either.

4 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

 

who was killed in the battle leaving hornwood with not legal claimant exept for a bastard

Roose does not know that Hornwood's son died protecting Robb. In fact in the books the battle of the Green Fork is the chapter before the battle of the Whispering Woods. In the books at least Snr dies before Jnr.

Now it is possible that the chapters are not told in order, but it is pretty much impossible for Roose to have found out about jnr's death and planned for his father to join him.

4 hours ago, Mrstrategy said:

 

and after that we heard that Ramsay is raiding Hornwood lands and has kinnaped lady Hornwood which is suspicious and makes me wonder if Roose Bolton did not killed lord Hornwood during the battle or allow him to be killed by lannisters 

How could he plan for that?

Roose would have to know that Ned had been killed, that Robb would ignore his mother's advice to go back North and continue to wage an impossible war against the Crown.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well that is just dumb on his neighbours part. It is just dumb on Robb's part.

That is not an example of treason. The 15-year-old son of the Lord of the North either

  • did not specify how many men he wanted
  • how long they'd be gone for

Robb had the men he asked for

Quote

"Benfred has raised his own company of lances. Boys, none older than nineteen years, but every one thinks he's another young wolf. When I told them they were only young rabbits, they laughed at me. Now they call themselves the Wild Hares and gallop about the country with rabbitskins tied to the ends of their lances, singing songs of chivalry."

Bran thought that sounded grand. He remembered Benfred Tallhart, a big bluff loud boy who had often visited Winterfell with his father, Ser Helman, and had been friendly with Robb and with Theon Greyjoy. But Ser Rodrik was clearly displeased by what he heard. "If the king were in need of more men, he would send for them," he said. "Instruct your nephew that he is to remain at Torrhen's Square, as his lord father commanded."

I dont think its dumb that Robb didnt fully deplete the norths men (we see Stannis later taking the mountain folk).

It is silly though blaming Roose for leaving men at home when every other northern lord did the same, they just mostly proceed to die along with Ser Rodrick.

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

continue to wage an impossible war against the Crown

Nothings impossible, only the Lysa Tullys think otherwise. 

Robb lost for one, and only one simple reason, Ramsay.

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well that is just dumb on his neighbours part. It is just dumb on Robb's part.

That is not an example of treason. The 15-year-old son of the Lord of the North either

  • did not specify how many men he wanted
  • how long they'd be gone for
  • or did and Roose knew better to listen to an inexperienced child

And to be more specific, we only see green boys and old men from the Umbers. We don't know the quality of the Karstarks, Ryswells, or Dustin forces. 

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Roose is not to blame here. Dustin, Ryswell and Manderly are not to blame here. Robb is. Had they done what Robb and the other Northern lords did then there is a good chance that even more of the Northern castles would have been taken by invaders or rebels within the land.

Manderly was instructed by Ned to strengthen White Harbor and make sure it was well manned. Dustin and Ryswell both might have sent an acceptable but not large amount because they didn't like the Starks / trust Robb / et al.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No need to engage? That seems to not be true. At Moat Cailin Robb says the plan was to catch Tywin with his pants down. That is the last we hear of the plan.

Now it is possible that Robb changed the plan off screen, but given

  • Roose would be endangering his own life
  • Risking the wroth of Ned and Robb if they found out he disobeyed orders
  • That none of the other Nobles with Roose were under the impression that they were not supposed to give battle
  • That there is no indication that Robb was angry with Roose, like he was with Edmure and Glover

Then it is a reasonable assumption that Robb expected a battle, that it was a calculated loss to keep Tywin as far away from Riverrun

Robb says Greatjon wants to catch Tywin with his pants down and immediately follows it up with this: 

“The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised.”

He appoints Roose to be cautious. It's pretty reasonable to expect a battle between the forces. It's the little details we see in an admittedly incomplete picture that do it for me: night march but let Tywin's army form up from leagues away, give up the high ground, forcing infantry to go on the offensive against heavy cavalry, and not starting the battle with missile troops.

Roose could have slowly moved down the KR and found an easily defensibly place or retreated back up the KR to the Twins where Tywin would risk being taken from behind by the combined Garrison. There's a range of actions Bolton could have done to accomplish the task. He did it in the way that benefitted him the most

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is actually not true. He did no single out any House. The Freys are not his neighbours and yet Tyrion notices many of their banners.

While it is true he likely kept his own banners in reserve, the often repeated idea that he singled out the Northern lords closest to him is just false. The Umbers are his closest neighbours, we don't see any sign of them in the battle either.

It gets repeated a lot bc it's in the SSM as a question where Martin addresses Bolton treachery. There's some meat on the bone there but again it's an incomplete picture.

 

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Did they ever actually tell us what happened to Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout? There were 600 men from various backgrounds in the North guarding the Ruby Ford, it's hard to imagine that they were all wiped out completely when Gregor seized the ford after the Red Wedding. 

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3 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Did they ever actually tell us what happened to Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout? There were 600 men from various backgrounds in the North guarding the Ruby Ford, it's hard to imagine that they were all wiped out completely when Gregor seized the ford after the Red Wedding. 

All 600 men are the hooded man at WF. They are just taking turns

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16 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Did they ever actually tell us what happened to Kyle Condon and Ronnel Stout? There were 600 men from various backgrounds in the North guarding the Ruby Ford, it's hard to imagine that they were all wiped out completely when Gregor seized the ford after the Red Wedding. 

They might be captives at Harrenhal.

Quote

The other captives had been better treated. Ser Wylis Manderly was amongst them, along with several other highborn northmen taken prisoner by the Mountain That Rides in the fighting at the fords of the Trident. Useful hostages, all worth a goodly ransom. They were ragged, filthy, and shaggy to a man, and some had fresh bruises, cracked teeth, and missing fingers, but their wounds had been washed and bandaged, and none of them had gone hungry. Jaime wondered if they had any inkling what they'd been eating, and decided it was better not to inquire. (AFFC Jaime III)

It's unclear if "fighting at the fords of the Trident" refers to only Gregor's attack on Roose's army as it crossed the river, or if it also includes Gregor's later seizure of the ruby ford. 

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I think an important consideration is WHEN Bolton decided to turn sides.  I think he was with the North from the start but as is his nature, he left men behind in case things didn't go their way.  He left Ramsay in charge when he left but probably not with specific enough orders to keep him reigned in and Ramsay ended up doing what Gregor does when not given specific enough orders, he creates chaos. (Don't forget that Ramsay should have died when Rodrick Cassel put his forces down and only his deception of taking the guise of Reek got him through alive...I'm re-reading aCoK now and not there yet so I could be misremembering). 

It wouldn't serve Roose to sabotage the North at the start. Sure he could take over for the Starks if they failed, but with the entire North against him, who's to say he would be the one taking over at the start of the story. So I think he was in it to win, got his ass handed to him by Tywin who is simply a superior battle commander.  When Roose lost that first battle, I think it smartened him up that he almost bought the farm and at first made him more cautious.  At what point he turned into a full on traitor and sent Northerners purposefully to their end I can't say yet, but I don't think it was until Robb broke his marriage arrangement with the Freys I'd say.

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23 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

He left Ramsay in charge when he left but probably not with specific enough orders to keep him reigned in and Ramsay ended up doing what Gregor does when not given specific enough orders, he creates chaos.

When Ramsay had sacked Winterfell Roose did not really had any another choice than wipe out the Starks. Or I assume that sacking of WF was moment of no return for Roose. 

After all there were survivors among Stark loyalists who could have told to Robb that it was Boltons who sacked WF and if Robb would have survived long enough to hear that he would have tried to punish Boltons for that sacking. So Roose had to kill Robb b4 he found out what had really happened in the North.

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4 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

When Ramsay had sacked Winterfell Roose did not really had any another choice than wipe out the Starks. Or I assume that sacking of WF was moment of no return for Roose. 

After all there were survivors among Stark loyalists who could have told to Robb that it was Boltons who sacked WF and if Robb would have survived long enough to hear that he would have tried to punish Boltons for that sacking. So Roose had to kill Robb b4 he found out what had really happened in the North.

You're giving Roose WAY too much benefit of the doubt. He knows what Ramsay is, and how would he know any more than Robb what happened at Winterfell? He's just as far away, and if Ramsay sent him any news of the truth, then they both risk the wrong pair of eyes seeing that news before Roose does. And that wouldn't account for the fact that Roose completely screwed up the Battle of the Green Fork by forcing his army to march all night long, then give away the element of surprise, and then giving up the high ground to charge a well-rested army which out-numbers them and also has a LOT of heavy cavalry.

The only way it makes sense at all is if Roose has been planning this ever since he found out about Ned Stark's capture and Robb's summons to Winterfell for a march south. Roose would be able to determine that a teenager leading an army south is probably going to make some mistakes, and so he plots with Ramsay to seize any opportunity that comes his way, giving him 600 crack Bolton troops just in case. He goes south and feigns the role of a dutiful bannerman, and then when Robb gives him command, he proceeds to eliminate such rivals as Halys Hornwood and Medger Cerwyn by putting them on the front lines of a losing battle. From there, he keeps himself safe, content that with Robb far away, he'll never know what Roose is really up to.

The Boltons have always wanted to take over the North, and they waited for the perfect moment to strike. And they succeeded.

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18 hours ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

You're giving Roose WAY too much benefit of the doubt. He knows what Ramsay is, and how would he know any more than Robb what happened at Winterfell? He's just as far away, and if Ramsay sent him any news of the truth, then they both risk the wrong pair of eyes seeing that news before Roose does. And that wouldn't account for the fact that Roose completely screwed up the Battle of the Green Fork by forcing his army to march all night long, then give away the element of surprise, and then giving up the high ground to charge a well-rested army which out-numbers them and also has a LOT of heavy cavalry.

First Roose is head of his house so almost certainly he has at least some men watching and reporting to him what Ramsay is doing. I do not really know how they deliver their reports but I assume that he could use same methods that Varys uses to gain those.

Secondly I am not totally sure that attacking against Lannisters that way was Roose's idea. After all most armies had their own glory hounds so it is possible that Roose was "outvoted" by some battle hungry lords. After all only part of that task force were his own men and I assume that many men (like Hornwoods, Karstarks and Umbers) were not really happy for obeying his orders and it is even possible that those actually attacked without his direct orders.

It is rather convenient that we do not have any PoV telling us what really happened among Northern task force b4 that battle. So we do not really know whose idea was leaving that strong position that northern army had gained by making that quick march. Or if Roose wrote history book about that battle that book would tell us that Roose's original idea was holding that hill but some idiots made that idea void by attacking Lannisters against his direct order not to attack and hold the line.

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29 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Secondly I am not totally sure that attacking against Lannisters that way was Roose's idea. After all most armies had their own glory hounds so it is possible that Roose was "outvoted" by some battle hungry lords. After all only part of that task force were his own men and I assume that many men (like Hornwoods, Karstarks and Umbers) were not really happy for obeying his orders and it is even possible that those actually attacked without his direct orders.

Not given that much thought. It seems like a possibility that they might have attacked out of impulse. It is certainly possible, but rare that it wasn’t mentioned in later povs of Acok or Asos.

Wouldnt be surprised if in winds roose reveals that the army attacked themselves without his direct order.
All this a plan of George to keep the reader double guessing.

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It seems to me that Ramsay is his own creature with his own  ambition beyond Roose. He may have been told to stir shit up in the North, but if he was ordered to take the Hornwood lands and then ordered to attack Torhen's square, then it was sheer luck he survived it.  I don't think Roose would have risked any of that being as cautious as he is.  He's an opportunist.  He tried to win at the battle of the green fork (that he as at the back of the lines and and able to escape a losing battle  is not unlike why Tywin stays at the back. He's a commander, not a Robert or Jaime who leads at the front. Roose just isn't as  good as Tywin so he lost. Ramsay was doing his own thing and also lost, but he was deceptive enough to stay alive and then take advantage of another opportunity left open by Theon. We shouldn't give too much credit to the Bolton's except they're cunning and  stayed alive until opportunity presented itself by more careless players. I think Roose was with the North until staying any longer was suicide. Robb did well with what he had all things considered, and many doubters of his leadership and tactics were turned to believers until the odds became too great and he lost them through character mistakes. 

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On 11/15/2020 at 10:46 AM, Loose Bolt said:

First Roose is head of his house so almost certainly he has at least some men watching and reporting to him what Ramsay is doing. I do not really know how they deliver their reports but I assume that he could use same methods that Varys uses to gain those.

100% on this. Ramsay's boys are all in Roose's confidence per ADWD. 

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