Theories and speculations about the Others

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So as of now our knowledge of the Others is limited

- We now they have the power of necromancy

- We now they invaded once before

- We know they are tied to the night and the cold

- We now they're vulnerable to dragonglass and valyrian steel

And that's about it. So given the huge amount of unknown, what are your theories and speculations on the Others, to be demolished by GRRM when he published TWOW in 2050? What do you think is their purpose, why do you think they're invading and how will the story about then pan out?

[Kierria]

The Others are a form of life which took a different path during the evolution of the planet.  Their purpose in the story is the same as the vampires in Fevre Dream.  The creation myth seems to begin with the Lion of the Night and the Maiden Made of Light.  Life is their children.  Life took different paths through evolution.  The Others evolved in the cold and dark while most lived in light and warmth. 

[CamiloRP]

There's another couple of things we know about them:
- They want babies (or maybe people in general) for something

- They seem to be able to reach understandings with humans (as evidenced by Craster)

- They are believed to take people (it's a common curse in Westeros 'Others take you')

- They seem to be individuals (unlike the COTF's colective)

And now what I consider to be the most important bit of information about them:

- They have their own language and they laugh.

I would also argue that we don't actually know them to be vulnerable to valyrian steel in the same way as we know them to be vulnerable to dragonglass, tho it's a fair assumption.

 

Now, that being said one of the things I feel the strongest about, and if you read me in the past you probably know, is this: the Others are human.

It's my opinion that the Others are named after the anthropological 'other' concept. As opposed to the 'self' the other is a "member of a dominated out-group, whose identity is considered lacking and who may. be subject to discrimination by the in-group." By being othered, this group is denied of empathy, and it's made to be easy to fear, hate and discriminate. I think that given their name and George's writing style (no absolute evil guys, war is complex, and examples I will give about othering later) it's a fair assumption to make that the Others are not evil.

And othering has been present in the story. In fact, othering is one of the main causes of the WOT5K. Desmond told Arya 'Every northerner is worth ten southron swords' he believed himself superior to the 'others', and in the end he was wrong. Ned thinks the Lannisters are different and worse than him, he believes that Tyrion sent the killer after Bran with no evidence at all, just because he's a Lannister, and Lannisters are inherently evil, and the attempted murder of Bran is the reason why he doesn't make peace with them. On contrast, the Freefolk where othered, yet Jon was able to see through that and use it to help them and the Night's Watch.

An interesting bit about the definition I quoted is the 'dominated' part, are the Others dominated by humans? Well, they been pushed to a wasteland and a wall has been built so they can't pass, we can't say they are dominated, but they certainly aren't dominating. (And in fact, they don't even dominate Craster, as he only get rid of some babies he didn't want and a couple of sheep, and those babies where likely week and feble, more on this later)

Why do I think that they talking and laughing is important? because it's one of the first things we learn about them and the whole story, and both things, laughing particularly, are extremely human behaviors, the story starts and George felt it important that we knew how human-like the Others where. In fact the COTF never laugh.

 

Then there's the fact that the Others might be able to breed with humans, if that where the case I would say that they are definitely human, as George has a gripe about non-human breeding with humans. The twist at the end of In The House Of The Worm is that the Grouns (ITHOTW's Others) are actually human, that is revealed partially by them being able to breed with humans. In Dark, Dark Were The Tunnels two different subsets of humans meet, one of those groups is suffering from inbreeding depression and they need new DNA, sadly the other group's DNA has changed so much over the years that they cannot interbreed as they are too genetically different. And in Dying Of The Light we hear a mention of not-men, not-men are humans that have been genetically modified so much that they can't breed with base humans, their name seems to indicate that because of it they are no longer considered humans because of it, meaning the definition people in the Thousand Worlds use for human is not "featherless byped" but "an individual that can procreate with a human". And here come I, DiogenesRP, with the feathers plucked from and ice pixie. If a not-man is an individual that can't breed with humans and Others can breed with humans, wouldn't that make them not-not-men?

Side note: I said that if the Others are confirmed to be able to breed with humans I would take that as confirmation that they are humans, that doesn't mean right know I'm convinced they are (tho I'm pretty convinced) as there are many things that point out to them not being able to breed with humans.

There's also this bit:

 

Now, why do the Others steal people? I find that there are a few possible explanations:

- Eating.

- Slave work.

- As pets.

- To turn them into Others.

- To breed with them.

Now the first one I found unlikely, as one seldom goes to war just to eat some choice meat.

The second one I think would be odd, as the Others have thousand of Wights to use as slaves, yet it's not impossible, as in the Corpse Handler trilogy we learn that reanimated corpses are only good for certain types of work, dextrous labour is hard for them, that being said, the 'dextrous labour' in that world is operating technology, not many dextrous task come to mind that the Others would need.

The third option is not impossible but highly unlikely, IMHO.

 

The fourth option is a viable one, but to magically turn people into Others like in the show seems like something too fantastical, IMO, and George thinks about this things, as he cut out a Tyrion chapter he really liked for being too fantastical. It's the more likely option for now tho.

The fifth option is the one I favor. As we hear of other groups that steal people: the Freefolk. And they do it to breed and prevent inbreeding depression, are the Others suffering it? Do they need people to help them with it, as the moon people in DDWTT did?

 

I'm completely against the notion of a War For Dawn, to me having humanity be saved by a glorious war against the forces of evil would weaken the story. Many of us fell in love with ASOIAF because of the complexities of morality in play, instead of being about a Good vs Evil battle, that's why I find it so perplexing that a lot of people seem to want the story to end that way, it makes little sense to me. Also I think it would be a weird structure, as we would end the books with a lesser version of something we already read, being a shorter, less complex war. The fact that Jon's arc has always been about learning to empathize with people he doesn't (first Tyrion, then his black brothers, lastly the Freefolk) and that he's the main POV in the Other conflict, I'm guessing he's story is about understanding the Others.

Following this I see two possible endings:

The story ends right before a Battle For Dawn, with a character (likely Jon) lamenting on how that is not a good thing and that everyone will die because of it, but no one listens to him.

Or the story ends with some sort of agreement between humanity (likely just the North) and the Others.

Here's a more detailed theory on the latter, a theory I'm not sure about but I think it's a fun possibility.

[Curled Finger]

We know so little about the Others and I hope it doesn't end up being a thing we never actually learn anything about.   I would like to think that the Others were human at some point.   Who knows what sleeping in the Heart of Winter could do to a state of being after a few thousand years?  What's happened to the Others needs to be undone.  I think that means defeated this time around.  I think that's why magic swords are required in the next round.  I'm not sold that the Others are the source of Ice magic.   They are far more likely a consequence of it, as the land north of the Wall seems to be.  We know the coming Battle for Dawn will not end the story.  It might end TWOW, but there is plenty to tell afterward.  

Asshai has always read like the aftermath of some catastrophe to me.  Perhaps The Doom was Fire magic's big play at ending world domination?  Perhaps the Doom is precisely what corrupted the lands surrounding Asshai and the inhabitants are doing all they can to raise the level of Fire magic.  I don't know, but there are parallels between the 2 lands if not people specifically.  

Granted, we know a little more about Valyrians than the Others.  We know they are genetically enhanced with the blood of dragons.   They are part dragon.  So why wouldn't the Others be the same sort of extension in Ice magic?  1st Men corrupted by elemental magic?  We are told the Thenns are closest to what the 1st Men of old were.  They live right next door to the Lands of Always Winter for crying out loud.   Are they gatekeepers or just that badass they thrive on the danger?  Or have they forgotten, too?  

The presence of magic swords specifically tied to the Others is telling.   Magic is at play here.  The Others are magical.  The reanimation of corpses could be no more than mass skinchanging dead things and people.  The cold and darkness could be Ice manifest.  Still the world is old and surely great lessons were learned in The Doom.   There doesn't need to be another one.  There needs to be a decisive end to what the Others do, not necessarily what they are.  If their waking is due to some portion of a pact not kept it can be rectified.  I rather enjoy the LOTR ending in magic leaving the world so that man can do his thing.  I don't expect that here, but something like it.  Keeping faith, undoing what wrong thing happened to the Others and losing the Valyrian Steel swords may be exactly what needs to happen.  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- We now they have the power of necromancy

- We now they invaded once before

- We know they are tied to the night and the cold

- We now they're vulnerable to dragonglass and valyrian steel

 

5 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

- They want babies (or maybe people in general) for something

- They seem to be able to reach understandings with humans (as evidenced by Craster)

- They are believed to take people (it's a common curse in Westeros 'Others take you')

- They seem to be individuals (unlike the COTF's colective)

And now what I consider to be the most important bit of information about them:

- They have their own language and they laugh.

Hey everyone. 

Via SSM's, I would add...….

- They can use magic to mould ice as they see fit.

- GRRM has described them as icy Sidhe. This strongly suggests they are linked to the CotF somehow. In Celtic myth the Sidhe are [in some tales] diminutive magical beings that live underground in hollow hills. They signed a pact with an invading force to split the land they both now inhabit. [They were tricked and given the half of the island that lay underground.] Obviously this is the exact tale of the CotF. So both the CotF and Others seem to be based on the Sidhe.

Nothing else to add for now, just thought we should really dig in and help each other to form as thorough a list as possible.   

[Springwatch]

If foreshadowing is a major thing (and it is), then the Others must be foreshadowed already in the stories we have. The Ironborn have to be top candidates for this: they have a resurrection ritual; they take thralls (the word suggests 'enthralled' as in mind-bending); they want to invade the 'green lands'; they hold to the 'Old Way' (very northern/old gods sounding); and they are people of the sea (the sea has a prophetic sense as used by Patchface and Jojen).

So...maybe the Others do mate with humans (salt wives). Maybe they have factions and infighting. Maybe old taboos are being broken (making slaves/wights?)

ETA

Lots of other possibilities for foreshadows: the KG ('white shadows'); Roose (bloodless); Moon Brothers; Qarth (pale city); maybe even Dany and her armies, the Unsullied (nameless and totally controlled) and the freed slaves ('thousand bloodstained hands' and 'mouths on feet').

ETA

And mummers. And puppeteers. The future impressed all over the past (or maybe the other way about).

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

We know so little about the Others and I hope it doesn't end up being a thing we never actually learn anything about.   I would like to think that the Others were human at some point.   Who knows what sleeping in the Heart of Winter could do to a state of being after a few thousand years?  What's happened to the Others needs to be undone.  I think that means defeated this time around.  I think that's why magic swords are required in the next round.  I'm not sold that the Others are the source of Ice magic.   They are far more likely a consequence of it, as the land north of the Wall seems to be.  We know the coming Battle for Dawn will not end the story.  It might end TWOW, but there is plenty to tell afterward.  

It's nice to see there's something we agree on in this topic!

 

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

- GRRM has described them as icy Sidhe.

Sidhe! that was teh fucking word, I couldn't remember it and wrote pixies instead.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It's nice to see there's something we agree on in this topic!

 

Sidhe! that was teh fucking word, I couldn't remember it and wrote pixies instead.

Better the Others were pixies than Sidhe.  Sidhe don't bode well here.  I'm still 100% behind a final Battle to end what the Others do replete with blood and guts and gore and death and hopefully the breaking of a spell with renewed resolve to get all parts of this world right.   

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Better the Others were pixies than Sidhe.  Sidhe don't bode well here. 

Why? 

Also, Ice Pixies would make for a really cool band!

(sorry, I'll see myself out)

 

Quote

I'm still 100% behind a final Battle to end what the Others do replete with blood and guts and gore and death and hopefully the breaking of a spell with renewed resolve to get all parts of this world right.   

I just don't think it's possible that George writes something in which the entire world is fixed by blood and guts and gore and battle. 

But hey, we both knew both those things.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why? 

Also, Ice Pixies would make for a really cool band!

(sorry, I'll see myself out)

 

I just don't think it's possible that George writes something in which the entire world is fixed by blood and guts and gore and battle. 

But hey, we both knew both those things.

Perhaps you're right, but he also wrote these Westerosi as warriors.  Peace is never an answer for these people.  This battle will cost plenty.  

[Aldarion]

16 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm completely against the notion of a War For Dawn, to me having humanity be saved by a glorious war against the forces of evil would weaken the story. Many of us fell in love with ASOIAF because of the complexities of morality in play, instead of being about a Good vs Evil battle, that's why I find it so perplexing that a lot of people seem to want the story to end that way, it makes little sense to me. Also I think it would be a weird structure, as we would end the books with a lesser version of something we already read, being a shorter, less complex war. The fact that Jon's arc has always been about learning to empathize with people he doesn't (first Tyrion, then his black brothers, lastly the Freefolk) and that he's the main POV in the Other conflict, I'm guessing he's story is about understanding the Others.

 

While I agree with most of the rest, you can still have such a battle: Others are quite clearly trying to invade. If someone is trying to invade your home / country / etc., you are then fully justified in killing them, regardless of circumstances. You can chose not to, but there is nothing morally wrong in doing so. But having such a battle still does not preclude eventual diplomatic settlement.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

    Can we say water magic? That could open up some comparisons. Would cited speculations be acceptable to contribute? 
    What about possible other non-humans not north of the wall? Save that for another post?I always got the impression Smallwood was talking about the others. I’m probably wrong. If you think I may be correct could we say religious?                         
Hovel: -religion : TABERNACLE

Howling : DESOLATE, WILD
           Also to chant, lament, or rave.

Hero : an object of extreme admirationand devotion : IDOL  
(-Hierophant?  -Hero? Heron?)     
from Latin heros (plural heroes) "hero, demi-god, illustrious man,"

{{Hero: Greek mythology) priestess of Aphrodite who killed herself when her lover Leander drowned while trying to swim the Hellespont to see her}}

"And I mean to have their heads, every one. These are wildlings. No soldiers. A few hundred heroes, drunk most like, amidst a great horde of women, children, and thralls. We will sweep over them and send them howling back to their hovels."

"And this great host of his is a shambling horde, full of useless mouths who won't know what end of a sword to hold. One blow will take all the fight out of them and send them howling back to their hovels for another fifty years.”

Nine wide steps had been hewn from the stony hilltop. Behind rose the howling hills of Old Wyk, with mountains in the distance black and cruel. Aeron paused where the doors once stood, pulled the cork from his waterskin, took a swallow of salt water, and turned to face the sea. We were born from the sea, and to the sea we must return. Even here he could hear the ceaseless rumble of the waves and feel the power of the god who lurked below the waters. Aeron went to his knees. You have sent your people to me, he prayed. They have left their halls and hovels, their castles and their keeps, and come here to Nagga's bones, from every fishing village and every hidden vale. Now grant to them the wisdom to know the true king when he stands before them, and the strength to shun the false. All night he prayed, for when the god was in him Aeron Greyjoy had no need of sleep, no more than the waves did, nor the fishes of the sea.
       

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Br-other from An-other M-other.

BrAn the MAn. 
As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. "You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel. So be it. If you must climb, then climb, but try not to let your mother see you."

Yea, I know...I’ll take my tinfoil hat and follow camiorp out the door  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

While I agree with most of the rest, you can still have such a battle: Others are quite clearly trying to invade. If someone is trying to invade your home / country / etc., you are then fully justified in killing them, regardless of circumstances. You can chose not to, but there is nothing morally wrong in doing so. But having such a battle still does not preclude eventual diplomatic settlement.

Yeah, I think the point will be that the only kind of good war is one fought for your people, for their survival. Everything else, be it for honor, greed ambition, legacy or just the Throne, that stuff is evil.

[Rondo]

The Others are a symptom of a world out of balance.  Fire and ice, light and dark, balance each other out.  This world is out of harmony.  The reason why the incarnations of Azor Ahai failed in the past was because they did not have dragons.  I believe this is the reason why Azor Ahai is a female this time around and she has dragons.  The world can finally be set to balance.  

Westeros had dragons in the past but no humans.  The giants existed with the children and probably the Others in harmony.  If dragons were everywhere in the past then they coexisted with the giants, children, and other life in balance.  Whether the climate going awry tilted the balance in one direction which favored the cold-blooded Others is an interesting idea to me.  But it seems like the climate goes through cycles which favor one side over the other from time to time.  Our seasons are the same way.  Cold and winter kills off the living.  Life recovers as long as enough survive.  I think that is how it should be.  The Others increase when climate favors them.  

[CamiloRP]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

While I agree with most of the rest, you can still have such a battle: Others are quite clearly trying to invade. If someone is trying to invade your home / country / etc., you are then fully justified in killing them, regardless of circumstances. You can chose not to, but there is nothing morally wrong in doing so. But having such a battle still does not preclude eventual diplomatic settlement.

Firs of all thanks!

Second of all, it's not about whether it's right or wrong, it's about of George would end his story with war saving humanity, which I really believe he wouldn't.

Third of all, by Batlle for Dawn I don't mean just a battle with the Others (we've had one of those already, or two, if you think Wymar's counts), I mean a battle that ends the conflict with the Others for good, that would preclude a settlement.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

A violation of the laws of magic . Trying to bring somebody back from the dead .

[Curled Finger]

42 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

A violation of the laws of magic . Trying to bring somebody back from the dead .

Or simply destroying the world with freezing cold and darkness.   Yah, that's got to be pretty high up on the list of violations.  

[corbon]

On 11/15/2020 at 3:12 AM, CamiloRP said:

There's another couple of things we know about them:
- They want babies (or maybe people in general) for something

- They seem to be able to reach understandings with humans (as evidenced by Craster)

These are not knowns. They are one unconfirmed data point by a source that is not first hand (the wives) . And that source's source (Craster himself) is not exactly reliable either.

Apparently, the "Cold Gods" are happy to take sheep, when sons are not available. Which doesn't say much for the Other's value of babies.... mind you, Old Nan's tales merely say they give babies to the wights - ie, they let their undead slaves kill them.

Quote

"For the baby, not for me. If it's a girl, that's not so bad, she'll grow a few years and he'll marry her. But Nella says it's to be a boy, and she's had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That's why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep's gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . ." She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

We don't 'know' Craster even has any sort of a deal with the Others, merely that he talks about being a 'godly man' and having 'protection' because of it. Truth is Craster's is about as far from the Lands of Always Winter where the Other's are supposed to originate as you can get short of the wall, and the Other's had not attacked settlements that far away, at the time he made that claim, only isolated groups of wildlings, and maybe rangers, caught outside.

 

 

[CamiloRP]

5 hours ago, corbon said:

These are not knowns. They are one unconfirmed data point by a source that is not first hand (the wives) . And that source's source (Craster himself) is not exactly reliable either.

Apparently, the "Cold Gods" are happy to take sheep, when sons are not available. Which doesn't say much for the Other's value of babies.... mind you, Old Nan's tales merely say they give babies to the wights - ie, they let their undead slaves kill them.

We don't 'know' Craster even has any sort of a deal with the Others, merely that he talks about being a 'godly man' and having 'protection' because of it. Truth is Craster's is about as far from the Lands of Always Winter where the Other's are supposed to originate as you can get short of the wall, and the Other's had not attacked settlements that far away, at the time he made that claim, only isolated groups of wildlings, and maybe rangers, caught outside.

The Others do show up to try and take gillys baby tho, and if he doesn't give them to the Others, what does Craster do with them?

I'll accept that we aren't 100% sure of this things, but I think it makes a lot of sense to believe in them.