Football: Still in December

[Consigliere]

Egyptian FA confirm that Salah's second test for Covid-19 has come back positive. He's likely going to miss the next two games for Liverpool (Leicester and Atalanta).

[Iskaral Pust]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Egyptian FA confirm that Salah's second test for Covid-19 has come back positive. He's likely going to miss the next two games for Liverpool (Leicester and Atalanta).

Yeah.  And Rhys Williams had to withdraw from the England U-21 game with an injury too.  And Thiago and Matip were both absent from training this week. At this point our starters, back-ups and even the kids are all injured.  The team to face Leicester will be a crazy, stitched together affair you’d normally see in the LC.  That’s pretty nice timing for Leicester.  

[Consigliere]

The Times reporting that premier league managers had a meeting yesterday and 15 managers are backing the calls for 5 subs. There were earlier reports that another vote on 5 subs could be called.

[Heartofice]

I think the whole 5 subs thing is a bit of a red herring really. Will 5 subs really counteract the real problem, which is too many games with no long break between them. Does it make a big difference if a player is playing 75 minutes instead of 90 in terms of their probability of getting injured, when you look at how much of their overall time spent training and playing in games? I doubt it. 

Then you have to think about whether managers are even substituting their best players during games to keep them fit. Harry Kane and Salah have played 90 minutes in every game this year. Are managers really prepared to pull off their talismans, the players most likely to score in a game where they aren't massively winning? 

Really the answer is to have less games (why the hell were there 3 england internationals just now?!). On top of that, top teams need to start being brave enough to play the rest of their squad in smaller games instead of relying on their top players every week. Isn't that why they build those big squads?

[The Winged Shadow]

17 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think the whole 5 subs thing is a bit of a red herring really. Will 5 subs really counteract the real problem, which is too many games with no long break between them. Does it make a big difference if a player is playing 75 minutes instead of 90 in terms of their probability of getting injured, when you look at how much of their overall time spent training and playing in games? I doubt it. 

Then you have to think about whether managers are even substituting their best players during games to keep them fit. Harry Kane and Salah have played 90 minutes in every game this year. Are managers really prepared to pull off their talismans, the players most likely to score in a game where they aren't massively winning? 

Really the answer is to have less games (why the hell were there 3 england internationals just now?!). On top of that, top teams need to start being brave enough to play the rest of their squad in smaller games instead of relying on their top players every week. Isn't that why they build those big squads?

Issue isn't 75 vs 90 over a single game though. It's 75 vs 90 over the course of the season. In some cases 75 vs 110 (extra time).

I don't think its about taking off the best players. Why would Mo be taken off when his workload is probably the least of the front tree and midfield? Mo may get taken off more with 5 subs, but the priority subs will always be Midfield > Full backs > Mane/Firmino. Don't watch enough Spurs games to know how hard Kane works relative to the wingers, but I expect its similar case.

Definitely agree on the less games though.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, The Winged Shadow said:

I don't think its about taking off the best players. Why would Mo be taken off when his workload is probably the least of the front tree and midfield? Mo may get taken off more with 5 subs, but the priority subs will always be Midfield > Full backs > Mane/Firmino. Don't watch enough Spurs games to know how hard Kane works relative to the wingers, but I expect its similar case.

Well if we look at Liverpool, Klopp notoriously sticks to a very similar 11, you can pretty much pick it without even thinking about it. Then looking at those players game time in the prem this year most of them have played 90 mins almost every game. Trent (outside of his injury) and Robertson both play entire games, when their role is probably the most demanding. The only real player who generally gets rotated is Firm, I'm guessing due to form and fitness. I'm picking on Liverpool here mainly because they are a top team and because their first 11 is so settled.

If 5 subs was such a big asset, then why aren't a club like Liverpool even using their 3 subs? My point is that they should have a squad to cover a large number of games, but like most Prem teams they rotate between competitions, not during prem games. 

If you want players to have less game time, then don't play the same players for entire matches. Kane is a good example, because Spurs literally don't have a backup (that one striker they bought did pretty badly in Europe and Jose might have already scrapped him from his plans) and Kane is seriously hard working and also quite prone to injury. He has also played pretty much every minute in the prem this year, because Jose is just not going to take the risk of bringing him off. 

 

[Consigliere]

5 subs + cancelling all non competitive internationals was the way to go this season. The only internationals that needed playing were the Euro play-offs and WC qualifiers. All friendlies and glorified friendlies (aka. Nations League) should have been cancelled. Unfortunately, the horse has already bolted on pointless internationals so the only option remaining to somewhat alleviate the workload on players is 5 subs.

[Iskaral Pust]

I definitely agree about fewer games, and the international games were the obvious candidates for that.  But most FAs get the majority of their revenue from their international games and FIFA decided to bail them out during the COVID lock down on crowd attendance by increasing their matches for more TV revenue.  And when did FIFA ever care about the burden on the players or the clubs?

The 5 sub rule will help though.  Liverpool used lots of subs when five were permitted.  And Klopp very often makes two subs out of three around 60-70 minutes in, holding one back in case there is an injury.  It’s usually MFs, Firmino or Mane who get subbed, which usually reflects distance run by those players.  Another benefit is that more sub appearances for back-up players gives them more opportunity to play their way into a rotated starting role now and again. 

[Consigliere]

Man City have confirmed that Guardiola has signed a 2 year extension.

[Heartofice]

Well during project restart Liverpool had basically wrapped up the title and so were bound to rotate a lot more. Their form did drop off quite dramatically too.

As for fewer games , that is absolutely the way to go, but it just is never going to happen. Honestly who watches early Europa League games? I don't know if I'd even watch the final! If there was something that needed to go away its most of the European competition matches. Of course, never going to happen, in fact the exact opposite is more likely.

Internationals can just go fall into the sea right now. I have no idea what the nations league thing is still, had no idea England were even playing and what they were playing for. It's all just very sad.
 

[Consigliere]

The Europa League was never going to go away and there would have been massive backlash from the vast majority of participants at the mere suggestion. The competition is an important source of additional revenue for participating clubs outside of England.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:51 PM, Raja said:

These events need to happen

1. Lowe gets fired

2. Klopp takes over Germany job

3. Hasenhuttl takes over Liverpool

4. Eddie Howe takes over at Soton

1. Very likely not happening. Altho the pressure is increasing. But he will be given a chance at the Euros. The question is, whether he will be backing down and recall at least one of Boateng, Hummels or Müller. It looks like that team desperately needs another quality CB to play alongside Süle. Given the current form Boateng might be the best bet (who would've thought that 2 years ago?). Who knows, maybe Yogi will win the Euros by a lot.

2. Klopp seems rather happy with life at Liverpool and is also earning quite a bit of money there. So also not particularly likely. If I were to pick the successor now: Kuntz.

Points 3 and 4 are thus rendered irrelevant.

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

The Europa League was never going to go away and there would have been massive backlash from the vast majority of participants at the mere suggestion. The competition is an important source of additional revenue for participating clubs outside of England.

Same with the silly Nations League. It's a nice (and needed) payday for the smaller FAs. DFB, English FA, KNVB, RFEF, FFF could happily live without it.

[ljkeane]

18 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Klopp seems rather happy with life at Liverpool and is also earning quite a bit of money there. So also not particularly likely. If I were to pick the successor now: Kuntz.

I suspect another issue with managers like Klopp (or Guardiola) who have a distinct style of play they want to follow is that they wouldn't have enough time with the players at international level to really get the team playing in the way they want anyway. Klopp might still be good at motivating the team but he'd probably have to compromise on his methods a lot.

It's a bit of an issue for international football in general that the way the top club sides are playing now doesn't really translate well to the international stage.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

30 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I suspect another issue with managers like Klopp (or Guardiola) who have a distinct style of play they want to follow is that they wouldn't have enough time with the players at international level to really get the team playing in the way they want anyway. Klopp might still be good at motivating the team but he'd probably have to compromise on his methods a lot.

I agree with Guardiola's possession based football arguably not being the best fit (altho the Spanish team built around that Barca backbone from 2008-2012 might disagree). Klopp football might be a better fit with some minor tweaks. His defensive line might have to drop a bit deeper. Otherwise the German team even has the kinda players Klopp would need.

The front three Gnabry, Sané, Werner looks potent enough and has enough pace for Klopp football - ofc the back ups are not quite as good. Fullbacks are bit more of an issue, I'd wager Max and Kimmich would also be productive enough. Ballplaying keeper. Ter Stegen is eagerly awaiting for Neuer to retire. That is also good enough. Süle (despite the Spain game) is also a top tier centreback. Not quite van Dijk's level, but also more than sufficient. In midfield he could built around (a somewhat injury prone) Goretzka (assuming Kroos will also call it quits after the Euros). So the raw quality to be a very good site and to play Klopp football is there with that nucleus of players.

[ljkeane]

8 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

So the raw quality to be a very good site and to play Klopp football is there with that nucleus of players.

It's not just having the players though. Obviously I've never done it but all the ex players who talk about it say having complex pressing systems like Klopp does takes a lot of time and work on the training pitch and if you get it wrong things like shipping 7 goals to Villa tend to happen. There probably just isn't enough time to put that work in at international level.

ETA: Yeah, Spain did play a Guardiola style when they had that winning run but they largely did that by just taking the core of the team directly from Barcelona. So they were getting the benefit of all the team work they were putting in at club level.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

It's not just having the players though. Obviously I've never done it but all the ex players who talk about it say having complex pressing systems like Klopp does takes a lot of time and work on the training pitch and if you get it wrong things like shipping 7 goals to Villa tend to happen. There probably just isn't enough time to put that work in at international level.

ETA: Yeah, Spain did play a Guardiola style when they had that winning run but they largely did that by just taking the core of the team directly from Barcelona. So they were getting the benefit of all the team work they were putting in at club level.

Yeah I think the same. Gegenpressing or whatever you want to call that high intensity press, generally requires a lot of training and cohesion to recognise the pressing triggers and to co-ordinate a proper press. It isn't a matter of just running around all the time. It is a high risk tactic that can only work with well drilled and quality players. 

Thats why I think so many international teams end up just playing a mid to low block and not trying anything especially risky or new. It is just easier to coach and far less likely to go wrong.

[Consigliere]

Mourinho would do very well managing at international level.

 

8 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

It's not just having the players though. Obviously I've never done it but all the ex players who talk about it say having complex pressing systems like Klopp does takes a lot of time and work on the training pitch and if you get it wrong things like shipping 7 goals to Villa tend to happen. There probably just isn't enough time to put that work in at international level.

ETA: Yeah, Spain did play a Guardiola style when they had that winning run but they largely did that by just taking the core of the team directly from Barcelona. So they were getting the benefit of all the team work they were putting in at club level.

Agreed.

It worked very well with Spain precisely because the majority of the starting XI were Barca players. There was no need for Del Bosque to actually implement his own playing style on the team. Same thing with the WC winning German team being majority Bayern players.

[polishgenius]

7 hours ago, The Winged Shadow said:

Don't watch enough Spurs games to know how hard Kane works relative to the wingers, but I expect its similar case.

 

Your point is generally good but Kane works his fucking tits off and ends every season burned out.

[The Winged Shadow]

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well if we look at Liverpool, Klopp notoriously sticks to a very similar 11, you can pretty much pick it without even thinking about it. Then looking at those players game time in the prem this year most of them have played 90 mins almost every game. Trent (outside of his injury) and Robertson both play entire games, when their role is probably the most demanding. The only real player who generally gets rotated is Firm, I'm guessing due to form and fitness. I'm picking on Liverpool here mainly because they are a top team and because their first 11 is so settled.

If 5 subs was such a big asset, then why aren't a club like Liverpool even using their 3 subs? My point is that they should have a squad to cover a large number of games, but like most Prem teams they rotate between competitions, not during prem games. 

If you want players to have less game time, then don't play the same players for entire matches. Kane is a good example, because Spurs literally don't have a backup (that one striker they bought did pretty badly in Europe and Jose might have already scrapped him from his plans) and Kane is seriously hard working and also quite prone to injury. He has also played pretty much every minute in the prem this year, because Jose is just not going to take the risk of bringing him off. 

Klopp heavily rotates his midfield pretty much every game. He hasn't been able to do that this season due to all the injuries. With the addition of Jota, he rotates the front three as well now. Fullbacks are the only issue at the moment, but that is also partly due to injury (pretty sure Kostas was injured the last few weeks).

As Isk mentioned, you'll find that Klopp reguarly uses up his sub but keeps one in hand for emergencies. I expect he will use up 4 and keep 1 in hand if/when 5 subs come in as well. Of course, now the trouble is the squad is so depleted, 5 subs might not actually help 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

STOP THE COUNT!:

Prem Standings

TEAM	GP	W	D	L	GD	P
Chelsea	9	5	3	1	+12	18
Leicester City	8	6	0	2	+9	18
Tottenham Hotspur	8	5	2	1	+10	17
Liverpool	8	5	2	1	+2	17