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The many political mistakes of Daenaerys Targaryen


Alyn Oakenfist

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So people often bring out Jon's fuck ups, and sure he has a few, but he also has a lot more moments of genuine political savvy, and he only gets killed because he doesn't expect the would be traitors to believe in their cause as much as he does and be prepared to die for it. Dany on the other hand, while she does have a good mind for acquiring power is useless in absolutely wielding it. So let's start her journey with power from the gates of Astapor in ASOS to her departure from Meeren in ADWD.

- So Dany starts off by quite cleverly sacking Astapor and taking command of the Unsullied. While quite bloody it is done well. However she leaves the city completely exposed. Astapor had relied on the Unsuallied and freemen to act as defensive and offensive forces. Now the trained freemen are dead and the Unsullied are gone. Astapor is sitting with it's britches down both from internal unrest and outside threats, just waiting to sieze/sack it. And guess what that's exactly what happens.

- Up next she again proves to have a good military mind and easily defeats the Yunkish. And then she just leaves them. Sure they release the slaves (without weapons), but there's nothing preventing them from taking up slavery again after Dany returns, and guess what, that's exactly what they do, like on second 2. She doesn't even leave a small garrison, or take hostages, it's idiotic. Say what you will about Jon and the wildlings, at least he knew to take precautions and hostages.

- And so Dany finally arrives in Meeren. In what is already a cliché, she quite easily takes the city showing yet again genuine skill at conquering. However then there's the crucified masters incident. I know, I know she wanted retribution, but all that succeeded in getting was making sure that the masters would never forget or forgive. A better way would have been to have trials and invite the masters themselves to single out the worst of them, thus creating a rupture between them showing those who would change and those who wouldn't, creating a good carrot and stick approach that could give peace with some of the masters. But no, it's vengeance time.

- Now after the crucifixions there is not a single chance that the masters will ever make peace in truth. However she just leaves them  be with all their power and influence. In a single potent double whammy Dany has just created a powerful determined enemy that will not stop until either her or it's defeat.

- And then as if the problems in the city aren't big enough, she issues a blanket pardon for everything that happened in the Sack and before. Now the core reason here is sound, you can't prosecute everybody for what they did, otherwise you'd rule a city of dead men. However to parallel Nazi Germany, not all SS members were tried and shot, even thought they deserved it, however the Nuremberg trials still did happen. And Dany should have done the same, openly prosecute the worst of the worst, both the worst slaves that committed horrifying acts of murder and rape in the sack and the worst masters, thought this part would have fit best with a trial for the crucifixions. Instead what this does is make sure that both sides feel incredible resentment towards the other with no closure or justice in sight and so the tension keeps on adding.

- Next comes Dany's stupidest decision, and that's saying a lot. She allows the former slaves, particularly highly trained and educated slaves to sell themselves back into slavery. This eliminated highly skilled workforce crucial to rebuilding and administering the city. How is she supposed to administer it without scribes, accountants, and so on and so forth? Also, skilled workforce is one great way to rebuild a post slavery economy and she just throws that out the window. All this is also extremely morally compromising and makes her seem as a hypocrite.

- She also doesn't allow the fighting pits to reopen. Why? Fighting slaves have no intrinsic economic or administrative value. If they want to throw their lives away, let them. It's not like the skilled slaves she does allow to throw their lives away. All she does is cut off a source of revenue and makes herself unpopular.

- Following this up Xaro come visiting offering ships in exchange for leaving. Dany who has shown a perfect capability of using deception somehow doesn't tell Xaro sure and then sizes the ships and preferably throw him to the waves. Instead she diplomatically refuses, allowing him to set up a blockade. Smart.

- She does do a smart thing in establishing non Unsullied city guards, so I'll give her that.

- Next when the Harpies start attacking she doesn't retaliate against the former masters, at all. Like not even discrete daggers in the dark, or anything, she just let's them be to continue attacking. Dany were do yo think the Sons of the Harpy have their funds?

- Then she agrees to the deal with Hizdahr. Dany how on Earth do you think he's stopping the attacks? The Shavepate was right on this, when the attacks stopped by magic, he should have started torturing Hizdahr until he spilled the beans on who is in the Harpy and deal with them. Even if she didn't want that, she shouldn't under any circumstances marry someone clearly connected to the harpy. It makes Hizdahr her de facto heir, and leaves her horribly exposed to assassination attempts by the now dormant Harpy. Which is exactly what happens.

- When the enemy starts blockading the city she then does the sensible thing and unleash the dragons, burning them. Scratch that, she's too afraid of them, because of their past. Granted it's a legit fear, but I don't see why she should fear for the lives of the enemy ships.

- And finally Dany's cacophony of a rule comes crashing down at Daznak's Pit where her incapacity to bridge old enmities or destroy her enemies results in her barely surviving and all her work sitting on a knife's edge, with her former enemies controlling the city through Hizdahr and only the Shavepate and Barristan's coup managing to bring the city back under control.

Her rule of Meeren is an incredible disaster. She starts out with the most disciplined and professional army in the world, and the love and adoration of the mases, with her enemies completely on her knees, and the 3 superweapons of the world in her possession, and yet she still fucks it up.

So yeah, great conqueror, terrible ruler.

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First and biggest mistake. She should have moved her Valyrian ass to Westeros millenia ago when gazillion chances presented themselves. Not doing that maybe, no, certainly, is a bad decision that will come back to haunt her.

But for the sake of argument (man, you do post a lot of what ifs), I'll look into all your points Alyn.... when I'm free - er. 

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I agree with much of that, and disagree with some.

1.  There was nothing wrong with giving the Yunkish a chance to keep the peace.  But once she heard (at the end of ASOS) that they were intriguing with Volantis and the Dothraki, then she ought to have brought them fire and sword.

2. She did in fact tell the Masters to single out their leaders.  The Masters' anger is due not to the fact that the wrong people were punished, but rather they don't consider that crucifying a slave child is a crime.  To them, the slaves are not human beings.  That said, it was a half-measure, sufficient to enrage the masters, without cowing them.

3. No freedmen sold themselves back into slavery.  It was some "gently-born" Meereenese, who wished to do so.  They had lost everything when the city fell.  Their slaves were no longer their property, and no doubt, the ex-slaves had thoroughly looted them.  Plenty of skilled ex-slaves remain in Meereen, as we see them petitioning her to join the guilds of skilled workers.  We also see that by ADWD, slave ships no longer visit Meereen, as there is no one there to purchase.  That said, we see later on that illegal slavery still continues. 

I don't agree with her decision to let Meereenese sell themselves, as it is open to abuse.  That said, she was respecting the choices of those people who had no desire to remain in Meereen.

4. There was no way that ex-slaves could be tried, if she was not going to alienate 80% of the population.  Slave uprisings are always brutal (eg Haiti, or Spartacus) because the slaves are full of pent-up hatred for their masters. By real-world standards, the slaves of Meereen seem fairly restrained.  Given that, it was only fair to pardon the majority of masters.  It's not ideal, but it was the right decision.

5. Xaro's ships were too few to make a difference.  And, he left them behind anyway.

6.  The dragons were too small to be a military asset at this stage.  Drogon at the end was only just large enough to bear Daenerys.  Given the situation she was in, it made sense to pursue a defensive strategy against armies that hugely outnumbered her.  We can see that it was starting to pay off at the end. as the besiegers succumb to the Pale Mare, and their discipline goes to pieces.  She also shrewdly guessed that the Tattered Prince was ready to turn. and made overtures to him - something which will pay off in TWOW.

I agree pretty much about the folly of marrying Hizdahr and trying to compromise with the Green Grace and the Sons of the Harpy. She did not to kill children, but executing adult masters in retaliation would have been legitimate. 

IMHO, the big mistake was Point 1.  Had the Wise Masters of Yunkai been destroyed, she would still have faced an invasion from other Slaver powers, but would have had a united Slavers Bay population to oppose them.

Overall, I would not call her rule an "incredible disaster".  We would probably view it somewhat differently, had we actually got the Battle of Meereen in ADWD, rather than having to wait until the next book.  It looks as if her forces will win.  I expect that even the young Bismarck or Napoleon would have made plenty of mistakes in a place like Slavers Bay.  But, she could have done much better.

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36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

5. Xaro's ships were too few to make a difference.  And, he left them behind anyway.

True, but it would have been a start an a weak presence at sea is far better then no presence at sea

36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

4. There was no way that ex-slaves could be tried, if she was not going to alienate 80% of the population.  Slave uprisings are always brutal (eg Haiti, or Spartacus) because the slaves are full of pent-up hatred for their masters. By real-world standards, the slaves of Meereen seem fairly restrained.  Given that, it was only fair to pardon the majority of masters.  It's not ideal, but it was the right decision.

I agree it was fair to pardon a majority of masters. But not all. The way she did it, she killed some in a very violent and punitive way that doesn't look like justice to anybody and let all the others be without even touching them.

37 minutes ago, SeanF said:

3. No freedmen sold themselves back into slavery.  It was some "gently-born" Meereenese, who wished to do so.  They had lost everything when the city fell.  Their slaves were no longer their property, and no doubt, the ex-slaves had thoroughly looted them.  Plenty of skilled ex-slaves remain in Meereen, as we see them petitioning her to join the guilds of skilled workers.  We also see that by ADWD, slave ships no longer visit Meereen, as there is no one there to purchase.  That said, we see later on that illegal slavery still continues. 

I don't agree with her decision to let Meereenese sell themselves, as it is open to abuse.  That said, she was respecting the choices of those people who had no desire to remain in Meereen.

The bigger problem that I have outlined is that such people who sell themselves, are a huge loss to Meereen. They are the educated skilled workforce, crucial for the government and administration as well as for the economy. Letting them go is a huge mistake.

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13 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

True, but it would have been a start an a weak presence at sea is far better then no presence at sea

I agree it was fair to pardon a majority of masters. But not all. The way she did it, she killed some in a very violent and punitive way that doesn't look like justice to anybody and let all the others be without even touching them.

The bigger problem that I have outlined is that such people who sell themselves, are a huge loss to Meereen. They are the educated skilled workforce, crucial for the government and administration as well as for the economy. Letting them go is a huge mistake.

1. It would look like justice to the freedmen, who for the first time, are seeing their lives treated as equal to those of the freeborn.

2. That may be the case, but it is worth noting that quite a lot of skilled and middle class occupations in Meereen were actually being performed by slaves, eg skilled craftsmen, healers, scribes, singers.  The masters across the East are pretty stupid, in that they arm their slaves to fight for them and educate many of them to perform skilled occupations, at the same time as the slaves hugely outnumber them.  In reality, slave soldiers ought to have overthrown their masters already, as the Mamelukes and Janissaries did.  

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Just now, SeanF said:

2. That may be the case, but it is worth noting that quite a lot of skilled and middle class occupations in Meereen were actually being performed by slaves, eg skilled craftsmen, healers, scribes, singers.  The masters across the East are pretty stupid, in that they arm their slaves to fight for them and educate many of them to perform skilled occupations, at the same time as the slaves hugely outnumber them.  In reality, slave soldiers ought to have overthrown their masters already, as the Mamelukes and Janissaries did.  

I am not sure if the people selling themselves were freedmen or former freemen, all we're told is that they were "gentle born", which could mean either born free or well bred slaves. However what we are told is that they would serve as scribes healers, etc, valuable skills in any society especially in a post slavery society that can no longer deal in human bondage and that must rebuild it's administration. Letting them go is a terrible waste.

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3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This isn't a what if, this is an analysis of her decisions, where's the what if?

Not this one. Just a general observation. This one is kinda whatif. Delving into her political mistakes brings out a lot of justifications and alternative options she could have done from her worshippers. Fairy Godmother Dany. Angel wings and pretty little halo included. Oh yeah, and the crystal crown and starry wand. Plus three nukes. 

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1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

Not this one. Just a general observation. This one is kinda whatif. Delving into her political mistakes brings out a lot of justifications and alternative options she could have done from her worshippers. Fairy Godmother Dany. Angel wings and pretty little halo included. Oh yeah, and the crystal crown and starry wand. Plus three nukes. 

Okay, I kinda see your point in that it draws out a lot of what ifs, explains why you said a couple of times I do them even though from what I've checked none of my threads actually are what if threads (alright there is a kinda what if about Cersei's options besides Rhaegar and Robert)

Also besides the what if's don't forget the immediate whataboutism about Jon, Stannis and Aegon when bringing up her mistakes.

 

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Daenerys uses power with intelligence and caution.  Imagine what somebody like Jon would have done if he had power.  Jon would have left the Wall on a dragon and joined Robb's Rebellion.  Dany is the only one who could be trusted to have the power of dragons at her call.   She didn't make any political mistakes.  The liberation of slaves on this grand of a scale has never been attempted before.  The method for dealing with the Harpy will have to be invented because there is no precedent.  The masters, who are evil, are the ones causing the problem.  

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10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

However then there's the crucified masters incident. I know, I know she wanted retribution, but all that succeeded in getting was making sure that the masters would never forget or forgive

I have yet to see a Master justifying their bs with those who were killed off. 

The truth is... Slavers love slavery and they are not going to give it up easily.

Dany dis create a crack in their society, that's why the Shaveheads were created. I'll never stop saying, this argument is absurd.

 

I agree with most of this tho.

 

 

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

The truth is... Slavers love slavery and they are not going to give it up easily.

True, but you don't need to make them bitter and resentful, and if you are you can't allow them to keep all their money and power.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany dis create a crack in their society, that's why the Shaveheads were created. I'll never stop saying, this argument is absurd.

True, but there are way too few. If Dany actually tired she could create so many Shavepates. Keep in mind, that slavery tends to really help monopolies and massive fortunes, those who are less then fortunate, even if they had slaves could be free to no longer be bullied around by hordes of slave labor and so with a little help could willingly join the new order.

And that's the gist, it wouldn't have been hard to integrate the masters and cut off the ones that can't be integrated, but Dany did neither, keeping them at the distance and hateful and letting them have power.

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27 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Daenerys uses power with intelligence and caution.  Imagine what somebody like Jon would have done if he had power.  Jon would have left the Wall on a dragon and joined Robb's Rebellion.  Dany is the only one who could be trusted to have the power of dragons at her call.   She didn't make any political mistakes.  The liberation of slaves on this grand of a scale has never been attempted before.  The method for dealing with the Harpy will have to be invented because there is no precedent.  The masters, who are evil, are the ones causing the problem.  

All hail the God Queen. So let me break down this "argument" for you.

28 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Daenerys uses power with intelligence and caution.

I love unsupported affirmations, based not on the facts or the story or anything, but on the hopes and wishes of the reader.

29 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Imagine what somebody like Jon would have done if he had power.  Jon would have left the Wall on a dragon and joined Robb's Rebellion.

Whataboutism

29 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Dany is the only one who could be trusted to have the power of dragons at her call.

The burned little girl would like a word with you. She is incapable of controlling them until the end of ADWD and even then her control of Drogon is tenuous at best.

31 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The liberation of slaves on this grand of a scale has never been attempted before.

Braavos would like a word with you

32 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The method for dealing with the Harpy will have to be invented because there is no precedent.

Yes the Targaryens never had to deal with guerilla warfare from a hostile population. Nope. It never happened.

33 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The masters, who are evil, are the ones causing the problem.

Gods, how is this proposition an actual argument in your head.

 

Anyways, all hail the God-Queen Daenaerys, the perfect ruler and the messiah

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4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

True, but you don't need to make them bitter and resentful, and if you are you can't allow them to keep all their money and power.

Agree to the latter, i disagree with the former,  the very fact Dany was conquering them and making then get rid of slavery means that they will always be bitter and resentful.

It's like arguing there was a way to make the White southeners to agree with the end of slavery with a smile... Well there was,  Jim Crow.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

True, but there are way too few. If Dany actually tired she could create so many Shavepates. Keep in mind, that slavery tends to really help monopolies and massive fortunes, those who are less then fortunate, even if they had slaves could be free to no longer be bullied around by hordes of slave labor and so with a little help could willingly join the new order.

Most who weren't profiting from slavery ended up on her camp, those who didn't, they had other motives to do so. Not wanting to end slavery.

Those who weren't really profiting at Hizdahr's level were the ones who joined her. Galazza Galare is rather dismissive with Shavepate for a reason. 

 

9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

And that's the gist, it wouldn't have been hard to integrate the masters and cut off the ones that can't be integrated, but Dany did neither, keeping them at the distance and hateful and letting them have power.

It was tho. Those who could be integraded already did.

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2 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's like arguing there was a way to make the White southeners to agree with the end of slavery with a smile... Well there was,  Jim Crow.

Not getting into too many details, the problem there was unique in that due to the lack of Federal oversight, the South was allowed to do whatever the fuck it wanted concerning it's legislation and soon put segregation. Fun fact the South 1870 was probably way less segregated then in 1950. Goes to show progress isn't a one way street.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

It was tho. Those who could be integraded already did.

I'm not sure. Think about the guy whose family got raped. He might have well been a low level slaver happy to no longer have the super rich have hordes of slaves, but then Dany refuses to give her any kind of justice. Another Harpy for the cause. That's why I said some justice against the worst of the slaves might have helped.

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33 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Thing is Meereen is child's play compared to Westeros right now.

It's the opposite actually. There's no real ideology opposition around the country. There's simply a fuck ton of warlords around now and the one with the biggest stick gets to win. It's simply conquer and Dany's good at it

 

 

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not getting into too many details, the problem there was unique in that due to the lack of Federal oversight, the South was allowed to do whatever the fuck it wanted concerning it's legislation and soon put segregation. Fun fact the South 1870 was probably way less segregated then in 1950. Goes to show progress isn't a one way street.

The lack of Federal oversight was the beginning,  after the end of Reconstruction, the southeners used mob tactics, among them masked men with a catchy name who happened to be rather bigot to prevent blacks from voting, ousting them etc etc. From that they took control of the local governments and from that the courts... 

Sounds a little similar doesn't it...

 

 

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not sure. Think about the guy whose family got raped. He might have well been a low level slaver happy to no longer have the super rich have hordes of slaves, but then Dany refuses to give her any kind of justice. Another Harpy for the cause. That's why I said some justice against the worst of the slaves might have helped.

And then you have other people mad because Dany's randonly judging cases and randomly ignoring others.

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