Jump to content

The many political mistakes of Daenaerys Targaryen


Alyn Oakenfist

Recommended Posts

22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not getting into too many details, the problem there was unique in that due to the lack of Federal oversight, the South was allowed to do whatever the fuck it wanted concerning it's legislation and soon put segregation. Fun fact the South 1870 was probably way less segregated then in 1950. Goes to show progress isn't a one way street.

I'm not sure. Think about the guy whose family got raped. He might have well been a low level slaver happy to no longer have the super rich have hordes of slaves, but then Dany refuses to give her any kind of justice. Another Harpy for the cause. That's why I said some justice against the worst of the slaves might have helped.

What if it turned out she had abused her slaves?

Take real life.  Horrific things were done to slavers and their families in Haiti in 1791, but should we be arguing that the slaves should have been punished for them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Take real life.  Horrific things were done to slavers and their families in Haiti in 1791, but should we be arguing that the slaves should have been punished for them?

Yes. Vengeance is not justice, and still a crime. That's one of the main points of ASOIAF

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes. Vengeance is not justice, and still a crime. That's one of the main points of ASOIAF

I think it’s difficult to work out in practice. Take Northern Ireland, where loads of people would love to settle scores, but where there has been a de facto amnesty since 1998.

It’s infuriating, but probably the only way forward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- And finally Dany's cacophony of a rule comes crashing down at Daznak's Pit where her incapacity to bridge old enmities or destroy her enemies results in her barely surviving and all her work sitting on a knifes edge, with her former enemies controlling the city through Hizdahr and only the Shavepate and Barristan's coup managing to bring the city back under control.

It's hard to do an assessment of Dany, if we can't agree on the plot. People have a lot of different ideas on the above ^ What do you mean "controlling the city?" Dany is still HBIC. Hizdahr isn't the Harpy. The fact that Dany brought people of all different groups together to watch a game was not her rule crashing down, it was a success until Drogon showed up. We have a scene illustrating her progress when one of the freedmen carrying the litter needs water. The Shavepate planted the locusts, and I don't think the "coup" brought the city under control.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mantain that Jon's and Dany's ruling should have been the opposite. Jon was uncompromising, even in the smallest detail, when the situation demanded compromise. Dany compromised way more than what she should have, her situation demanded no compromise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daenerys Targaryen only made one mistake and that is believing Hazzea's father.  All the other troubles in Slaver's Bay are to be expected when the slave owners are resisting releasing their slaves.  Staying in Astapor and Yunkai were never good options.  The best city from which to launch a revolution is Meereen.  The liberation is a work in progress.  Meereen is actually doing better than the northern parts of Westeros.  Give any sane person a choice and they would rather be in Meereen instead of inside Winterfell or under Jon's command in Castle Black.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Thank you for detailing why I have been saying forever. Dany is one of the dumbest wenches in the story. It’s a toss up between her and Cat

Catelyn was not stupid.  Unlucky, certainly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Alyn Oakenfist

You posted a similar topic in the past and here is my reply to you from that one:

"She didn't make any big mistakes in Slaver's Bay.  The reason why there is still unrest is because the masters and their terrorists arm, the Harpy, are resisting.  Daenerys is doing the right thing.  Some may say she was being too soft on the masters and the Ghiscari but it is good to try giving them a chance to make the right choice.  It is clear now that they are not going to do that, so it is time for a large scale Dracarys. 

I do not believe any other leader, Tywin included, could have handled Slaver's Bay any better.  Jon Snow certainly could not.  I mean he couldn't handle a few thousand people at the wall.  Robb would have cried himself to sleep and wet his bed after one week in Slaver's Bay.  The liberation of millions and the campaign to end a brutal slaving practice that had been in place for over a thousand years is not going to happen smoothly."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's hard to do an assessment of Dany, if we can't agree on the plot. People have a lot of different ideas on the above ^ What do you mean "controlling the city?" Dany is still HBIC. Hizdahr isn't the Harpy. The fact that Dany brought people of all different groups together to watch a game was not her rule crashing down, it was a success until Drogon showed up. We have a scene illustrating her progress when one of the freedmen carrying the litter needs water. The Shavepate planted the locusts, and I don't think the "coup" brought the city under control.

 

I'm wouldn't I would describe former slaves who know no other life fighting to the death or being mauled to death by wild animals as a game. Not to mention enslaved dwarves facing death by lions if not for Dany's intervention.

Hizdahr may not be the Harpy - IMHO it's the Green Grace. However, it's likely he does have contact with the Sons of the Harpy otherwise he wouldn't have been able to get Dany to marry him by promising a period of peace from their violent attacks. Also, it was the Green Grace herself who suggested Hizdahr as Dany's husband.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Thank you for detailing why I have been saying forever. Dany is one of the dumbest wenches in the story. It’s a toss up between her and Cat

It's really hard to tell, as one is a ruler and the other is not, but I think Catelyn's fuck ups are of a much larger scale, while Dany's are more of a case of the devil's in the details. Either way neither comes even close to the mountain of stupidity that is AFFC Cersei

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While Dany certainly made mistakes, I'd say I fall in the camp of Dany actually wasn't doing a bad job until she Drogoned out of there and left everything high and dry. I think most of people's negative opinions come from Dany's own negative perception of events. Unfortunately I'm terrible at explaining my point of view, but if you want to spend too much time reading, the (admittedly pretty old news) Meereenese Blot essays on Daenerys are pretty aligned with my opinions. This is a link to the second essay which is most related to this topic.

And for whatever it's worth, GRRM said about the essays "I read those when someone pointed them out to me, and I was really pleased with them, because at least one guy got it. He got it completely, he knew exactly what I was trying to do there, and evidently I did it well enough for people who were paying attention." Of course, the essays look more generally into Dany's adwd arc, but I'd assume the quote applies to Dany's merits and failures as a ruler as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I mantain that Jon's and Dany's ruling should have been the opposite. Jon was uncompromising, even in the smallest detail, when the situation demanded compromise. Dany compromised way more than what she should have, her situation demanded no compromise.

That's a very good observation.  As to what Daenerys did right in Meereen. I would suggest:-

1. The amnesty (here I disagree with the O/P)

2. Abolishing slavery without compensating the slave masters.

3. Focusing on growing crops and handicrafts and the trade treaty with Lhazar (the claim that she had "no economic plan" for Meereen does not bear scrutiny).  Meereen has plenty of food by the time of the siege,.

4. Rejecting Xaro's offer.  

5.  Allowing freedmen to enter guilds.

6. Creating the Brazen Beasts, and companies of freedmen.

7.  Flying Drogon out of the Pit

8.  Opting to stand a siege, rather than meet superior forces in the open field.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/17/2020 at 12:31 PM, SeanF said:

I agree with much of that, and disagree with some.

1.  There was nothing wrong with giving the Yunkish a chance to keep the peace.  But once she heard (at the end of ASOS) that they were intriguing with Volantis and the Dothraki, then she ought to have brought them fire and sword.

2. She did in fact tell the Masters to single out their leaders.  The Masters' anger is due not to the fact that the wrong people were punished, but rather they don't consider that crucifying a slave child is a crime.  To them, the slaves are not human beings.  That said, it was a half-measure, sufficient to enrage the masters, without cowing them.

Oh, they were cowed alright. They only start to really push her back when she starts to show weakness by imprisoning the dragons and not reacting to the Sons of the Harpy stuff the only way she should have - by rounding up and killing ten freeborn/highborn Meereenese for any former slave/Dany loyalist that is murdered.

Also, the old elite start to see the tide turning when the Yunkish start their campaign and Dany is unwilling to crush them before they move against Astapor.

Dany's desire to make peace with the people she conquered overrides all good sense. She is like King Aenys writing letters to the High Septon trying to explain Targaryen incest.

On 11/17/2020 at 12:31 PM, SeanF said:

I don't agree with her decision to let Meereenese sell themselves, as it is open to abuse.  That said, she was respecting the choices of those people who had no desire to remain in Meereen.

I guess she didn't allow any Meereenese to sell him/herself to another Meereenese, so her not stopping a guy from selling himself to a foreign dignitary isn't that much of a deal. Daenerys' anti-slavery stance isn't as all-encompassing as it should be. She isn't on a crusade to rid the entire world of the practice. If the Qartheen hadn't tried to mess with her they would likely not have to fear that she would attack them in the future. Now they are not so lucky.

On 11/17/2020 at 12:31 PM, SeanF said:

IMHO, the big mistake was Point 1.  Had the Wise Masters of Yunkai been destroyed, she would still have faced an invasion from other Slaver powers, but would have had a united Slavers Bay population to oppose them.

One would assume that in that case she would have had much more time, and perhaps the Volantenes and Qartheen wouldn't have bothered. It is the insane wealth of Yunkai that organizes the slaver coalition we see - especially with the sellsword companies - as well as the propaganda they spread. Without the Yunkai'i doing that, people may have been able to make their peace with Dany if she had stayed in Slaver's Bay. Or, if not, it would have taken them years before some half-hearted alliance was formed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, they were cowed alright. They only start to really push her back when she starts to show weakness by imprisoning the dragons and not reacting to the Sons of the Harpy stuff the only way she should have - by rounding up and killing ten freeborn/highborn Meereenese for any former slave/Dany loyalist that is murdered.

Also, the old elite start to see the tide turning when the Yunkish start their campaign and Dany is unwilling to crush them before they move against Astapor.

Dany's desire to make peace with the people she conquered overrides all good sense. She is like King Aenys writing letters to the High Septon trying to explain Targaryen incest.

I guess she didn't allow any Meereenese to sell him/herself to another Meereenese, so her not stopping a guy from selling himself to a foreign dignitary isn't that much of a deal. Daenerys' anti-slavery stance isn't as all-encompassing as it should be. She isn't on a crusade to rid the entire world of the practice. If the Qartheen hadn't tried to mess with her they would likely not have to fear that she would attack them in the future. Now they are not so lucky.

One would assume that in that case she would have had much more time, and perhaps the Volantenes and Qartheen wouldn't have bothered. It is the insane wealth of Yunkai that organizes the slaver coalition we see - especially with the sellsword companies - as well as the propaganda they spread. Without the Yunkai'i doing that, people may have been able to make their peace with Dany if she had stayed in Slaver's Bay. Or, if not, it would have taken them years before some half-hearted alliance was formed.

TBH, it's a bit far-fetched.  The Daenerys of ASOS would have had no hesitation in bringing fire and sword to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

TBH, it's a bit far-fetched.  The Daenerys of ASOS would have had no hesitation in bringing fire and sword to them.

It is a little bit of hyperbole, but King Aenys was the son of Aegon the Conqueror. He knew what his father did to take possession of Westeros. And he also knew, at the beginning of his reign, that the original rebels had to be put down. He just couldn't decide how to do it because he wanted to be loved by all. Like Dany wants to be loved/accepted as queen by all her subjects, not just the former slaves.

What triggers Dany's anger is the vilest of cruelty and the abominations that are common practice in Slaver's Bay. I guess even King Aenys wouldn't have accepted this kind of behavior if he had been in her shoes there. Could be wrong, though.

But the point is that Dany's issues in Slaver's Bay come more from the fact that she is like her ancestor Aenys than that she is like Maegor. Aenys twice refusing to fly Quicksilver in battle - first when Lord Tully wants him to attack Harrenhal and second when Queen Visenya urges him to use his dragon (or her and Vhagar) to burn Oldtown - can be paralleled with Dany's decision to imprison her dragons and refusing to do what's necessary to defend her people and defeat her enemies. It isn't exactly the same considering Dany doesn't have dragonriders at that point, so it wouldn't really be possible to properly weaponize the dragons, but it still is a sign that she, like Aenys, isn't willing to do everything that it takes.

And that is the kind of weakness the Green Grace and the others tasted ... and then they decide to push her further and further. Just like Aenys' original signs of weakness emboldened the original rebels (and even Visenya) which then led to the Faith Militant Uprising. These people all got cocky because they didn't think Aenys/Daenerys would answer fire with fire.

For Dany that's likely going to be just a phase. She certainly has the potential to be more like Jaehaerys I. The greatest Targaryen king of all time also seems to have conducted a great massacre with the Fourth Dornish War. It didn't blacken his reputation all that much...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Daenerys Targaryen only made one mistake and that is believing Hazzea's father.  

What would you have done in that situation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

"She didn't make any big mistakes in Slaver's Bay.  The reason why there is still unrest is because the masters and their terrorists arm, the Harpy, are resisting.  Daenerys is doing the right thing.  Some may say she was being too soft on the masters and the Ghiscari but it is good to try giving them a chance to make the right choice.  It is clear now that they are not going to do that, so it is time for a large scale Dracarys. 

 

I mean, that is because she made a mistake, she invaded a country, ended slavery, but left the slaver ruling class untouched. She should have imprisoned all former slavers in one of the pyramids and either keep their wealth herself or distribute it amongst the slaves. It was not only a better political choice, but it was a more fair and more humane one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...