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Mance Rayder and Jon Snow violated guest rights


Son of Man

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Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

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Just now, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Guest rights is not going to disturb an irreverent man like Mance Rayder.  He already broke his vows a long time ago.  Good point though.  Guest rights was violated.  Whoever killed Walder (Little) also broke guest rights because the Frey boy was a ward of the host.  

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Who cares?

Heck, listing who isn't guilty of violating guest right would be easier and shorter at this point.

ETA: It's more about the how and the why of the violation. Characters will get the fate they deserve, it's fiction you know, that is how fiction works.

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Jon didn't tell Mance Rayder to murder anyone, he just wants his sister back. A sister who was (according to the official story) captured after Lannister men massacred Eddard Stark's household in King's Landing, given away without her house's permission as a reward to House Bolton for betraying said sister's house at the Twins. 

Mance is another story but I'd say Jon's hands are still clean in that regard.

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17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Jon, didn't send Mance to Winterfell, so he is safe from that. Regarding Mance, was he a guest? are the Boltons really the hosts of the castle that they took by betrayal and treachery? It is up to the Old Gods to judge.

I'd imagine all that matters is the idea that someone's a guest and should expect safety in any place regardless of the location. If I invited you into a random cave offering hospitality then clubbed you over the head while you ate I'd think I'd still be violating guest right in principle because it's about that specific situation, not whose cave it is.  

 

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1 hour ago, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Jon and Mance are guilty.  They know better.  But spearwives may not observe the same laws and values of hospitality. 

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53 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Jon, didn't send Mance to Winterfell, so he is safe from that. Regarding Mance, was he a guest? are the Boltons really the hosts of the castle that they took by betrayal and treachery? It is up to the Old Gods to judge.

Jon sent Mance.  So Jon is not relieved of guilt. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Trigger Warning said:

I'd imagine all that matters is the idea that someone's a guest and should expect safety in any place regardless of the location. If I invited you into a random cave offering hospitality then clubbed you over the head while you ate I'd think I'd still be violating guest right in principle because it's about that specific situation, not whose cave it is.  

 

We will see how Old God Bran interpretes the rules. He might be a little biased...

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1 hour ago, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Jon is an idiot for doing this.  He practically declared war on the Warden of the North and got the N/W involved.  

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2 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

:agree:

8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think the North is beyond caring at this point when it comes to the Freys and the Boltons

The north hold the tradition of guest rights sacred.  They won't take kindly to Jon violating it.  It's not about the Freys or the Boltons.  

47 minutes ago, Big P said:

Jon and Mance are guilty.  They know better.  But spearwives may not observe the same laws and values of hospitality. 

Guest rights is honored on the other side of the wall too.  You can't excuse the spearwives.  

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5 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

The north hold the tradition of guest rights sacred.  They won't take kindly to Jon violating it.  It's not about the Freys or the Boltons.

I'm not whataboutisming here, but Wyman did break guest right big time, along with a couple of other things, and most people know it (though they don't know about the pies). And nobody cares anymore. The same thing here. When Mance and the others are saving the maiden from the monsters, do you think anybody will care they broke guest right? I don't think so, I'll just be seen as necessary to destroy the Boltons.

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1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

I'm not whataboutisming here, but Wyman did break guest right big time, along with a couple of other things, and most people know it (though they don't know about the pies). And nobody cares anymore. The same thing here. When Mance and the others are saving the maiden from the monsters, do you think anybody will care they broke guest right? I don't think so, I'll just be seen as necessary to destroy the Boltons.

I believe they will care and hold Jon accountable.  The next book will tell which one of us is right.  

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1 minute ago, Bowen 747 said:

I believe they will care and hold Jon accountable.  The next book will tell which one of us is right.  

Mate do you have any idea how Winterfell is going to fall? It's not gonna be through a siege or a storm, the Manderly and their allies will turn cloak and open the gates for Stannis. That's breaking guest right too. And again, nobody is going to care.

 

Also from a legal argument it's not breaking guest right if the Bolton's aren't the rightful owners of Winterfell

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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Jon didn't tell Mance Rayder to murder anyone, he just wants his sister back. A sister who was (according to the official story) captured after Lannister men massacred Eddard Stark's household in King's Landing, given away without her house's permission as a reward to House Bolton for betraying said sister's house at the Twins. 

Mance is another story but I'd say Jon's hands are still clean in that regard.

The losing house is not given a choice in war.  The Starks themselves took the daughters of their foes.  I am sure it was not voluntary on their part.  Arya does not get to choose.  The Starks lost.  Jon's hands are not clean because he is the lord commander of the watch.  He is Mance Rayder's commanding officer.  

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