Mance Rayder and Jon Snow violated guest rights

[Leonardo]

22 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

I'd imagine all that matters is the idea that someone's a guest and should expect safety in any place regardless of the location. If I invited you into a random cave offering hospitality then clubbed you over the head while you ate I'd think I'd still be violating guest right in principle because it's about that specific situation, not whose cave it is.  

A good point, but a cave isn't an ancestral castle. Not to mention, if your guests had already broken guest right then all bets are off, which the Boltons and Freys had both done. If someone breaks guest right, expecting the same is foolish when custom decrees their punishments

[TheLastWolf]

17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

They sure did.  Jon is a moron for sending Mance to get his sister.  

Who would you have sent if it was your sister? Septon Cellador? 

[TheLastWolf]

16 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I’m gonna throw another one.

Ned also broke guest right when he attempted a coup. Jamie also did when he attacked Ned on the streets. Baelish when he pushed lysa. Varys when he killed Kevan. Hell even Daenerys when she took over astapor.

How dare you insult the Fairy Godmother!? 

[TheLastWolf]

17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Oh, and your own post are not poorly veiled Dany hate threads!  

This is why I say Targ/Valyrian vs Stark/North/Snow is real and happening @CamiloRP. But I'm out of trying to reason with irrationally prejudiced haters. I might as well spread harmony via sarcasm 

[Lady Topspin]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:09 AM, Son of Man said:

 

It was a shocking violation of guest rights.  A lot of people in the north hate the Boltons but rules still apply regardless of how they feel.  They are hypocrites if they tolerate this.  Guest right gets violated even if the Bolton servants were not murdered because stealing a nobleman's wife is an act of aggression towards his family.

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Lady Topspin said:

because stealing a nobleman's wife is an act of aggression towards his family.

Ramsay = noble!?!? . And I don't care if you meant his title. No one who knows the Boltons will call them nobleborn. Lords maybe. But such sadistic cruel sumabitches don't deserve to live, much less be called noble. I'll address Ned or even Tywin as Lord or noble or highborn, but never scum like certain Freys and Boltons. 

And fArya was married by force. It was not some romantic happy marriage interrupted by evil Wildlings. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:09 AM, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Samwell made a mistake when he helped Jon become lord commander.  Jon is not suited for this office or any office.  Jon should have been a wildling.  His temperament is not suited for command.  He fucked up the order of the Night's Watch.  He will be remembered as the Night's King 2.0

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 11/18/2020 at 12:09 AM, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

This has been brought up before.  Guest rights was broken for sure.  I want to see if the fans who bash on the Freys will be equally appalled by what Jon's Wildlings did within the shelter of their host.  

[Davjos]

Why do you all chose to ignore these two facts (I) Mance is not a member of the NW nor is Jon his commander, he is a prisoner of Stannis Baratheon and (Ii) Jon tasked Mance with retrieving the girl on the gray horse, not kidnapping in Winterfell. 
 

This couldhave been an interesting discussion on why guest rights appear to lose significance or an interesting discussion on potential consequences for breaking guest right by Freys, Mance, which I do agree the OP makes an interesting case for, and maybe Manderly. It could even be a questioning of wether guest right does apply in a conquered location or not. Instead this thread is just filled with negativity both from pro and anti Jon/Stark forum members. 

[Rondo]

Mance Rayder is part of the NW.  He said the words.  He was even a ranger.  Once you take the black you cannot leave.  Desertion does not get him out of his sworn oath.  His watch ends only when he is no longer able to do his job.  In other words, his watch ends only when is dead.   

 

[El Guapo]

I agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed in this thread. That Jon is a horrible leader, unfit to rule, dullest tool in the shed, etc but even I can't see how he broke guests rights. That seems like a stretch to me. 

[TeriofTerror]

Mance is there posing as a bard, so technically he's an employee, not a guest. Also, he's not under Jon's command. If anything, he answers to Melisandre. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

The spirit of guest rights was broken.  The females paid for the trespass.  Jon got killed for it.  Mance is a prisoner.  They are being held to account for it.  The people who know of it outside Castle Black and Winterfell will have to decide for themselves what to do with Mance Rayder because the Boltons will lose this fight.  That man was born to raid houses.  His name says it all.

[TheLastWolf]

23 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

He will be remembered as the Night's King 2.0

By Stark/Snow/North haters et al

[TheLastWolf]

3 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

The spirit of guest rights was broken.  The females paid for the trespass.  Jon got killed for it. 

Walder Frey doesn't agree. Nor does Wyman Manderly. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

16 hours ago, Rondo said:

Mance Rayder is part of the NW.  He said the words.  He was even a ranger.  Once you take the black you cannot leave.  Desertion does not get him out of his sworn oath.  His watch ends only when he is no longer able to do his job.  In other words, his watch ends only when is dead.   

 

This is true.

[Springwatch]

On 11/18/2020 at 5:09 AM, Son of Man said:

Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Servants and hirelings are never described as guests, so how could guest right apply? Although - given how Mance and the spearwives ended up, it looks like the gods hated them anyway.

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

17 hours ago, Rondo said:

Mance Rayder is part of the NW.  He said the words.  He was even a ranger.  Once you take the black you cannot leave.  Desertion does not get him out of his sworn oath.  His watch ends only when he is no longer able to do his job.  In other words, his watch ends only when is dead.  

But how is a commander responsible for the deeds of a deserter ? In no way.

The only thing to say against Jon here is that it might have been his duty to get him executed. And I´m saying "might" because technically he was Stannis prisoner and Jon was not in the position to judge him.

[Only 89 selfies today]

Jon was killed to prevent him from doing further harm to the Night's Watch and Westeros.  Breaking the laws of guest right was not the reason for his death.  His part in the crime may never surface if he stays dead.  Mance will get away with it because George Martin likes his type.  George Martin likes his gray characters and Mance could fall into that category in his eyes.  He is black to me but George Martin may judge on a different scale.  Honestly, I feel badly for Squirrel.  I question whether the young girl knew what she was getting into.  Mance, the older girls, and Jon took advantage of that kid.  

[Leonardo]

It's Freys and Boltons; all bets are off after the Red Wedding with them.

 

Also it's the Stark ancestral home, it isn't the Boltons. They have no claim whatsoever in living memory and neither do the Freys, as Jeyne is a fake Arya, and Bran and Rickon are both alive as well as Sansa and real Arya. Hell, Jon has claim to Winterfell ffs.