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Mance Rayder and Jon Snow violated guest rights


Son of Man

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20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

No. I don't hate Dany like at all, I think she's a fundamentally good person. However that doesn't mean she doesn't fuck up big time, especially in Meereen. "The other people were against her" isn't an excuse. She had dragons, she had Unsullied, and yet she fled Meereen for her live letting Hizdahr take power in her stead. Had it not been for Barristan and Shavepate, Viserion and Rhaegal would be dead, think about that for a second.

And it doesn’t mean that everybody who points out Jon’s screwups and big-time f-ups are haters.  Many of us are just not willing to give him a pass for all of his disastrous f- ups.  Jon f-led up more than any lord commander ever has.  I commend the person who started this section for bringing it up.  

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Allow me to break this down for you one by one

8 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Many of us are just not willing to give him a pass for all of his disastrous f- ups.  Jon f-led up more than any lord commander ever has.

We know of exactly ONE other Lord Commander, and he ended up in the exact same predicament as Jon, dead by mutiny.

8 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I commend the person who started this section for bringing it up.  

This particular argument is stupid. First off, Mance was Stannis's prisoner and not Jon's. Second off, even if Jon told him to get Arya, he didn't say anything about guest right. Third off, the Bolton's aren't the rightful owners of Winterfell so it's debatable how much guest right they have. And forth off, after what the Boltons and the Freys did, Stannis, Manderly or Jon could skin them alive in their beds and nobody would abt an eye.

8 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

And it doesn’t mean that everybody who points out Jon’s screwups and big-time f-ups are haters.

Never said they were. But if you point them out, point out the legitimate ones, you have enough to chose from. Say he is a distant Lord Commander, who doesn't understand the importance of being with his men and communicating with them. Say he fails to properly understand the arguments of other people. Say he doesn't realize not everybody has the same insight into the wildlings and the walkers as he does. All are perfectly good criticisms of him. You don't need to make shit up to make your favorite character look better. It's perfectly okay to like Dany and root for her, she's a very likable character, and at the same time admit that she fucks up a lot.

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11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Allow me to break this down for you one by one

We know of exactly ONE other Lord Commander, and he ended up in the exact same predicament as Jon, dead by mutiny.

This particular argument is stupid. First off, Mance was Stannis's prisoner and not Jon's. Second off, even if Jon told him to get Arya, he didn't say anything about guest right. Third off, the Bolton's aren't the rightful owners of Winterfell so it's debatable how much guest right they have. And forth off, after what the Boltons and the Freys did, Stannis, Manderly or Jon could skin them alive in their beds and nobody would abt an eye.

Never said they were. But if you point them out, point out the legitimate ones, you have enough to chose from. Say he is a distant Lord Commander, who doesn't understand the importance of being with his men and communicating with them. Say he fails to properly understand the arguments of other people. Say he doesn't realize not everybody has the same insight into the wildlings and the walkers as he does. All are perfectly good criticisms of him. You don't need to make shit up to make your favorite character look better. It's perfectly okay to like Dany and root for her, she's a very likable character, and at the same time admit that she fucks up a lot.

You’re ignoring the fact that Mance Rayder is a sworn brother of the NW.  Jon is his commanding officer.  Jon ordered him to get his sister.  Look, Jon is one of the dullest tools in the shed but even he knew it was illegal to get involved.  There was no need to pose Mance as a bard and his women if it was a simple mission to pick up Arya from nowhere and bring her in.  Jon and Mance anticipated the need to go to Winterfell.  Did Jon order them to murder Roose’s people?  Probably not but he knew it would likely happen.  Mance would not be in Winterfell murdering people and violating guest rights if Jon had not ordered him to get his sister.  There is no way to get Jon out of this hole.  He was responsible for Mance.  It was Jon’s fault.

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You’re ignoring the fact that Mance Rayder is a sworn brother of the NW.  Jon is his commanding officer.

Mate he deserted, everyone knows this.

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Probably not but he knew it would likely happen.

That's worth about fuck all

3 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Look, Jon is one of the dullest tools in the shed but even he knew it was illegal to get involved.  There was no need to pose Mance as a bard and his women if it was a simple mission to pick up Arya from nowhere and bring her in.  Jon and Mance anticipated the need to go to Winterfell.  Did Jon order them to murder Roose’s people?  Probably not but he knew it would likely happen.  Mance would not be in Winterfell murdering people and violating guest rights if Jon had not ordered him to get his sister.  There is no way to get Jon out of this hole.  He was responsible for Mance.  It was Jon’s fault.

I mostly agree, but with two caveats. While it is true that Jon knew what he was doing and it was against the rules, Mance wasn't considered a brother anymore. I know a technicality, but still.

However the big point of contention is that Jon s going to draw blame for this. The only people who know Jon let him go are Jon, Mel and Mance. Why would any one of them tell. To everybody else he was a prisoner of Stannis, who failed to execute him and let him go to use as a tool, and then deliver the girl to Stannis, depriving Bolton of a valuable asset.

Hard to cast moral judgement to Jon on this one, this is his presumed favorite sister married to Ramsay Bolton, but in world the consequences are going to be limited in terms of blame at least.

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12 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I’m gonna throw another one.

Ned also broke guest right when he attempted a coup. Jamie also did when he attacked Ned on the streets. Baelish when he pushed lysa. Varys when he killed Kevan. Hell even Daenerys when she took over astapor.

Ned didn't kill anyone and he wasn't a guest in KL, neither where his men, nor Baelish in the Eyrie and Varys in KL. Dany was a guest in Astapor, so a case could be made here, but it wasn't in Westeros, so I don't know.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Ned didn't kill anyone and he wasn't a guest in KL, neither where his men, nor Baelish in the Eyrie and Varys in KL. Dany was a guest in Astapor, so a case could be made here, but it wasn't in Westeros, so I don't know.

Oh no definitely. Most of them probably didn’t break guest right. But I’m just attempting a throw at the dice here. 

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14 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

Agreed.  Guest rights was violated by the wildlings under Jon's command.  The wildlings will lose their lives for this ill-fated mission.  The mission was bad from the very beginning.  To risk the lives of so many and to put the Watch in danger just for Arya is a stupid thing to do.  It wasn't even Arya.  Emotions and bad decision-making doomed Jon Snow.  It's just too bad he had to drag the Watch with him.  

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Mate he deserted, everyone knows this.

That's worth about fuck all

I mostly agree, but with two caveats. While it is true that Jon knew what he was doing and it was against the rules, Mance wasn't considered a brother anymore. I know a technicality, but still.

However the big point of contention is that Jon s going to draw blame for this. The only people who know Jon let him go are Jon, Mel and Mance. Why would any one of them tell. To everybody else he was a prisoner of Stannis, who failed to execute him and let him go to use as a tool, and then deliver the girl to Stannis, depriving Bolton of a valuable asset.

Hard to cast moral judgement to Jon on this one, this is his presumed favorite sister married to Ramsay Bolton, but in world the consequences are going to be limited in terms of blame at least.

Blame is not the point in my opinion.  Because Jon is dead.  His own men killed him when he clearly went off the edge.  The value of the subject is to give reasons why he was a poor commander. 

Blaming the dead will not change the past.  But other characters  in the plot may learn from it and not repeat the  same behavior.

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2 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

His own men killed him when he clearly went off the edge.

This argument is tired, but he really didn't. I'm not sure he did the best things everywhere, but he didn't do anything outright stupid.

2 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Blaming the dead will not change the past.  But other characters  in the plot may learn from it and not repeat the  same behavior.

You do know Jon is coming back, right?

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49 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Oh no definitely. Most of them probably didn’t break guest right. But I’m just attempting a throw at the dice here. 

haha, sorry, who else then? Stannis with Florent, since we are Stark hating, Jon with Slynt?

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19 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Mance Rayder and his Wildlings were sent by Lord Commander Jon Snow to bring his married sister to the wall.  Abel and the women entered Winterfell and murdered Bolton household staff.  That is a violation of guest rights.  

Mance is a man sworn to the Night's Watch.  He is under Jon's command.  It was Jon who ordered him to get Arya and set him loose on the north.  Jon even ordered Dolorous Edd to find the women and bring them to the wall in order to complete Mance's disguise.  Mance and his crew sheltered with the Boltons and ate food from their table.  They killed Bolton soldiers.  Therefore, Mance, Jon, and the wildling women are all guilty of violating the sacred laws of guest rights.  

I can and do agree.  Jon is already dead from the knife attack.  I don't think he will come back as a living, breathing human.  That will be his punishment.  I do hope Mance doesn't become king of the north but it can happen if Roose and Stannis finish each other off. 

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Very interesting topic. I’ll have to take another look.

Guest rights always make me think of vampires who require an invitation to enter a home.
 

Does it matter who brought, owns, and offers the food?

what about the roof and table?

What counts as a guest gift?

Mayhaps and iron come into play?

 

Can someone post a link to all known guest right laws. Maybe we could all research this mystery together?

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Beneath the roof and above the salt is something I can get on board with. But bread is to firey when leavened. Iron is no way to conduct oneself at table, unless it’s under the table.

what am I saying? I have no idea. I think out loud. All these words have so many meanings. Bread represents fire and air, yeast. Salt of the sea Salt of the earth. Iron is a conductor that grounds you out from air and sea?

Bah, now I’ll be up all night.

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