If not Dany, then who?

[sweetsunray]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:34 AM, Nathan Stark said:

I think Quentyn's death was the point of his story. The consequences of his death will be more important than anything he did while he was in the story.

And to give us a POV on what befell Astapor, instead of just news about it in Dany's POV

[SeanF]

On 11/19/2020 at 9:13 PM, Amris said:

To the OP: I have come to the conclusion that Martin took the Dark Overlord trope (think Sauron) and stood it on its head.

What if the Dark Overlord isn't a black, brutish guy but instead a beautiful, blonde young girl?

What if the Dark Overlord doesn't simply do evil for evil's sake but has understandable motives, some of them even admirable?

What if the Dark Overlord actually as a valid claim to the throne?

I think we are witnessing an experiment on how readers react when the Dark Overlord  trope does not come with its usual trappings but looks harmless and pretty and has not only ambition but also a desire to help. Do we readers suddenly find their actions okay? Are we more forgiving than we would be otherwise?

If we look deeper though all of Dany's partly noble motivations and good looks can't quite hide that at the core she pulls a Sauron:

- She has an army of brutal, rapist savages

- She has three fire-breathing monsters that can lay waste to entire cities

- She is an invader from a foreign country

- She comes to conquer the whole continent

I also think and hope though that Martin has given Dany a more versatile role than Tolkien gave Sauron. I do think that Dany will help against the White Walkers and possibly even sacrifice her life in that war. So she may be a Sauron who ends up on the right side in the end.

We will see.

Anyways: A very important character even if she does not end up on the throne.

Edit: As to who ends up on the throne we know that from the show. Not that I'm happy with it.

 

Martin has always said, there is no Dark Lord in this tale, so no, she's not Sauron.  As things stand, the Flower of Chivalry of Westeros are in large measure, brutal, raping, savages, even if they have coats of arms and lengthy pedigrees, rather than looking exotic and foreign.

She might turn out to be like the Lady, from The Black Company series. 

Still, it does seem that the ultimate occupant of the throne is Bran, which might, or might not, be good news.

[Amris]

16 hours ago, SeanF said:

Martin has always said, there is no Dark Lord in this tale, so no, she's not Sauron.  As things stand, the Flower of Chivalry of Westeros are in large measure, brutal, raping, savages, even if they have coats of arms and lengthy pedigrees, rather than looking exotic and foreign.

She might turn out to be like the Lady, from The Black Company series. 

Still, it does seem that the ultimate occupant of the throne is Bran, which might, or might not, be good news.

What people say and what they do are two different things. Martin is no exception.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Amris said:

What people say and what they do are two different things. Martin is no exception.

Why would he change his mind?? He has already told his end to the showrunner.

[Eltharion21]

18 hours ago, SeanF said:

Martin has always said, there is no Dark Lord in this tale, so no, she's not Sauron.  As things stand, the Flower of Chivalry of Westeros are in large measure, brutal, raping, savages, even if they have coats of arms and lengthy pedigrees, rather than looking exotic and foreign.

She might turn out to be like the Lady, from The Black Company series. 

Still, it does seem that the ultimate occupant of the throne is Bran, which might, or might not, be good news.

There is the "Dark Lord" actually in the tale:

Quote

“The dark lord brooded high in his tower,” Galyeon began, “in a castle as black as the night.”

“Black was his hair and black was his soul,” the musicians chanted in unison. A flute came in.

“He feasted on bloodlust and envy, and filled his cup full up with spite,” sang Galyeon. “My brother once ruled seven kingdoms, he said to his harridan wife. I’ll take what was his and make it all mine. Let his son feel the point of my knife.”

“A brave young boy with hair of gold,” his players chanted, as a woodharp and a fiddle began to play.

“If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I’ll do is hang all the singers,” said Tyrion, too loudly.

Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, “A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant.”

“The dark lord assembled his legions, they gathered around him like crows. And thirsty for blood they boarded their ships . . .”

“. . . and cut off poor Tyrion’s nose,” Tyrion finished.

Similarly Daenerys is represented in propaganda of her opponents, though Euron looks like potentially dark lord-ish figure - even his sigil is combination of Red Eye of Barad-dur and Saruman's crows.

[Mystical]

If not Dany, then who?

There's the big mistake right there. One ring...person to rule them all hasn't worked out so great for the continent, now has it? It's one of the many reasons why I side-eye GRRM's ending of King Bran. Part of his story is showing that absolute rule by one person is a bad thing. To me it doesn't even matter who sits on a throne at the end, the story is IMO a failure if it ends with the one ring...person to rule them all.

[SeanF]

45 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

There is the "Dark Lord" actually in the tale:

Similarly Daenerys is represented in propaganda of her opponents, though Euron looks like potentially dark lord-ish figure - even his sigil is combination of Red Eye of Barad-dur and Saruman's crows.

My own view is that Euron is much less than he thinks he is.  He imagines himself as some kind of eldritch Demi-god, when in reality, he's a rotten man who's learned some spells.

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Mystical said:

If not Dany, then who?

There's the big mistake right there. One ring...person to rule them all hasn't worked out so great for the continent, now has it? It's one of the many reasons why I side-eye GRRM's ending of King Bran. Part of his story is showing that absolute rule by one person is a bad thing. To me it doesn't even matter who sits on a throne at the end, the story is IMO a failure if it ends with the one ring...person to rule them all.

I think its always gonna be a monarchy. Maybe by the end they have some check on power, rule of law, term limits.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 hours ago, Mystical said:

There's the big mistake right there. One ring...person to rule them all hasn't worked out so great for the continent, now has it? It's one of the many reasons why I side-eye GRRM's ending of King Bran. Part of his story is showing that absolute rule by one person is a bad thing. To me it doesn't even matter who sits on a throne at the end, the story is IMO a failure if it ends with the one ring...person to rule them all.

I disagree. Constitutional monarchies are some of the best and most stable governments out there (though one could make the case that it's less to do with the system and more to do with the necessary steps required to reach a constitutional monarchy, those steps creating a strong democratic and anti extremist culture and mindset, but I digress).

And that hopefully is where the story is heading, with either Jon or Dany (both could do this quite well, though it would be harder for Dany to relinquish power) becoming monarchs, seeing the need to stop the game of thrones by centralizing the continent, but also putting checks and balances on their own power.

[Amris]

On 12/24/2020 at 10:26 AM, frenin said:

Why would he change his mind?? He has already told his end to the showrunner.

I didn't say he changed his mind. What I mean is that he may say things that he thinks are true but that aren't necessarily when viewed from another perspective.

For example my impression is that he thinks he has spotted certain weaknesses in Tolkien's LotR. Since he publicly talks about this it is more or less a necessity that he tells himself (and others) that he will avoid these weaknesses.

But thinking this and doing it are two different things.

Sauron is pretty one-dimensional, true. And one might see that as a weakness in the LotR. (I don't - I think Sauron makes sense in the context of the book - but others don't see it this way.) Now in GRRM's series we see a lot of  villains that have different sides and motivations and are no Sauron at all. Testament to GRRM trying to avoid the one-dimension.

However we also see a Euron and a Victarion. That's what I mean with thinking and doing being two different things. It's not easy to entirely avoid the one-dimensionalness.

Now back to Dany who after all is the topic of this thread: I don't think Dany is a a one-dimensional character at all. And that's even though yes, I do think that she is partly modeled on the Dark Overlord trope. But that trope has been brillantly turned on its head. If people in this thread think that I want to diminish Dany or critizice George about how he set up Dany then they are mistaken. I don't like everything about the books but I do like what GRRM did to create Dany. I find it very interesting how on the one hand she reflects Sauron but on the other hand makes us understand her motivations and even feel for her.

And the most interesting thing is what book Dany does to us - us readers. How do we see her and her acts (some of which are very gory if you think of it). And why do we see what we see? I at least am not so sure about myself and whether my opinion of her and her actions is really warranted. That's pretty cool I think.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 minutes ago, Amris said:

Now back to Dany who after all is the topic of this thread: I don't think Dany is a a one-dimensional character at all. And that's even though yes, I do think that she is partly modeled on the Dark Overlord trope. But that trope has been brillantly turned on its head. If people in this thread think that I want to diminish Dany or critizice George about how he set up Dany then they are mistaken. I don't like everything about the books but I do like what GRRM did to create Dany. I find it very interesting how on the one hand she reflects Sauron but on the other hand makes us understand her motivations and even feel for her.

Let me riff on this a bit because I agree with you. A Deconstructed Dark Lord would take the Dark Lord trope, tear it apart, and instead give you stories about people rather than villains/heroes. A Reconstructed Dark Lord would put it back together in a better configuration, so you'd end up with characters on either side of the moral compass but the route to get there would be more interesting, surprising, realistic, sympathetic, new, ect. I think GRRM is using the former as much as he can until it's unsustainable and you have to show what power is doing to people using the latter. 

[El Guapo]

On 12/24/2020 at 5:46 AM, Mystical said:

If not Dany, then who?

There's the big mistake right there. One ring...person to rule them all hasn't worked out so great for the continent, now has it? It's one of the many reasons why I side-eye GRRM's ending of King Bran. Part of his story is showing that absolute rule by one person is a bad thing. To me it doesn't even matter who sits on a throne at the end, the story is IMO a failure if it ends with the one ring...person to rule them all.

I actually I think it has worked pretty well over the last 300 years

[The Sleeper]

3 hours ago, Amris said:

I didn't say he changed his mind. What I mean is that he may say things that he thinks are true but that aren't necessarily when viewed from another perspective.

For example my impression is that he thinks he has spotted certain weaknesses in Tolkien's LotR. Since he publicly talks about this it is more or less a necessity that he tells himself (and others) that he will avoid these weaknesses.

But thinking this and doing it are two different things.

Sauron is pretty one-dimensional, true. And one might see that as a weakness in the LotR. (I don't - I think Sauron makes sense in the context of the book - but others don't see it this way.) Now in GRRM's series we see a lot of  villains that have different sides and motivations and are no Sauron at all. Testament to GRRM trying to avoid the one-dimension.

However we also see a Euron and a Victarion. That's what I mean with thinking and doing being two different things. It's not easy to entirely avoid the one-dimensionalness.

Now back to Dany who after all is the topic of this thread: I don't think Dany is a a one-dimensional character at all. And that's even though yes, I do think that she is partly modeled on the Dark Overlord trope. But that trope has been brillantly turned on its head. If people in this thread think that I want to diminish Dany or critizice George about how he set up Dany then they are mistaken. I don't like everything about the books but I do like what GRRM did to create Dany. I find it very interesting how on the one hand she reflects Sauron but on the other hand makes us understand her motivations and even feel for her.

And the most interesting thing is what book Dany does to us - us readers. How do we see her and her acts (some of which are very gory if you think of it). And why do we see what we see? I at least am not so sure about myself and whether my opinion of her and her actions is really warranted. That's pretty cool I think.

I think Dany is modeled after great conquerors, people who loom larger than life in history and gone out of is way to make such a figure sympathetic to the reader, giving her even a reason for her conquest we can all get behind. 

But there is a limit to that. Conquerors are inherently not benign. 

On 12/23/2020 at 5:48 PM, SeanF said:

Still, it does seem that the ultimate occupant of the throne is Bran, which might, or might not, be good news.

I expect the show runners took one element out context and contrived to fit it to their already nonsensical plot. 

Interestingly Bran has the potential to become a Sauron like figure. All-seeing unapproachable and commanding his minions from a distance. 

On 12/24/2020 at 12:54 PM, SeanF said:

My own view is that Euron is much less than he thinks he is.  He imagines himself as some kind of eldritch Demi-god, when in reality, he's a rotten man who's learned some spells.

 I think that image is as much to the reader as to the character. If you read it from another perspective he is probably high on shade of the evening. That said, it doesn't mean that Martin can't use him as a narrative wedge to put into cracks. Circumstances matter and under the current ones guys like him who would be otherwise irrelevant common criminals can do a lot of damage. 

I think ultimately he wants to be a reaver among petty Kings plungering as he wishes with no one to stop him, which is why he won't hesitate to throw away his own assets and leave scorched earth behind him. 

[Aldarion]

On 11/19/2020 at 9:13 PM, Amris said:

What if the Dark Overlord doesn't simply do evil for evil's sake but has understandable motives, some of them even admirable?

 

You know what is ironic? The original Dark Overlord - Sauron - didn't do evil for evil's sake. He actually had good intentions - he genuinely believed that people are inherently incapable of ruling themselves and so have to be babysat (basically what everybody on this forum who is advocating for dragon-controlling ruler thinks, heh). Same for Saruman. But with time, his will to do good got basically eaten by his will to control, as is wont to happen. It is just that all the wannabe Tolkiens out there failed to understand how deep of a character Sauron actually is, and so you got a bunch of half-baked idiot absolutely-evil-for-evil's-sake Dark Overlords. But what happened to Sauron can happen to anyone: and I see it happening to Daenerys. Power is there (dragons and legitimacy conferred by them), good intent is there, and patronizing attitude is arguably there. She has everything necessary to become the next Dark Lord.

 

This song might help you understand him:

 

On 11/19/2020 at 11:34 PM, Springwatch said:

Why is she Sauron, and Tyrion not?

Besides, we've already got a 'Sauron' character - it's Euron. The name. The eye sigil. And because he's evil.

Tyrion is Grima Wormtongue. And we have several Aragorn characters in the story (Jon Snow and Young Griff), why there wouldn't be two Saurons? I see Daenerys as Atanatar: Sauron before the Downfall of Numenor, when he still had good intentions and could present himself as good. Euron however is not even Sauron, he is a stereotype that people have of Sauron: psychopathic and utterly, irredeemably evil (which Sauron actually was not - see my reply to Amris, just above in this post). But in terms of his role in the story, he is Saruman to Daenerys' Sauron: he imagines he has power and can manipulate people, but that is all just smoke and mirrors.

10 hours ago, Amris said:

Sauron is pretty one-dimensional, true.

No, he isn't. That is just how he comes off in Lord of the Rings because we don't see his side of the story. But Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales show him to be a rather complex, and I'd argue actually tragic, character. He meant to do good, but because he had no understanding of God's plan and no belief in his creation's ability to govern itself, he strayed into doing evil.

Ironic perhaps that many Daenerys supporters (or rather, dragon-totting-ruler-supporters in general) actually use the exact same arguments Sauron would use.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

You know what is ironic? The original Dark Overlord - Sauron - didn't do evil for evil's sake. He actually had good intentions - he genuinely believed that people are inherently incapable of ruling themselves and so have to be babysat (basically what everybody on this forum who is advocating for dragon-controlling ruler thinks, heh). Same for Saruman. But with time, his will to do good got basically eaten by his will to control, as is wont to happen. It is just that all the wannabe Tolkiens out there failed to understand how deep of a character Sauron actually is, and so you got a bunch of half-baked idiot absolutely-evil-for-evil's-sake Dark Overlords. But what happened to Sauron can happen to anyone: and I see it happening to Daenerys. Power is there (dragons and legitimacy conferred by them), good intent is there, and patronizing attitude is arguably there. She has everything necessary to become the next Dark Lord

To be honest that part is only in the Silmarrilion, which most people haven't read. In the main books there id no hint of moral grey area, besides him maybe only wanting to conquer and bot exterminate.

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

To be honest that part is only in the Silmarrilion, which most people haven't read. In the main books there id no hint of moral grey area, besides him maybe only wanting to conquer and bot exterminate.

Agreed.  And even in the Silmarillion, Sauron is pretty terrible.  He sends werewolves to devour his prisoners, and serves Morgoth.  Any goodness there may have been in Sauron ended a long time before we encounter him.

You can have more interesting Dark Lords, who do have motives and back stories, and are somewhat tragic, like Ineluki, or Utukku, or Emhyr Var Emrys.  But, that was never developed with Sauron or Morgoth.  Morgoth was a jerk from the word go, and Sauron was  better, only insofar as he was willing to serve another, and to rule the world, rather than destroy it.

Martin does have characters of real evil in his tale, but none of them is a major point of view character.  Those who come closest are probably Cersei and Tyrion.

[Monster_Under_the_Bed]

On 11/18/2020 at 5:49 PM, Lady Winter Rose said:

If you think Dany isn't suitable for throne of Westeros:

1) why does Martin write her chapters?

2) who would be better choice for the throne?

 

Also, want to point few things... if you think Daenerys is too much Mary Sue, isn't Martin to blame for that characterization? Would you still love Martin as writer if he booted Dany out of story?

If the choice should made by merit, without considering blood lineages, then Tyrion is the best pick. Out of the realistic choices, it's Jon. He is the King in the North, born and raised in Westeros, while Daenerys spent her entire life on another continent. She will always be an outsider.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Monster_Under_the_Bed said:

If the choice should made by merit, without considering blood lineages, then Tyrion is the best pick. Out of the realistic choices, it's Jon. He is the King in the North, born and raised in Westeros, while Daenerys spent her entire life on another continent. She will always be an outsider.

Tyrion would be another Aegon IV.

[Monster_Under_the_Bed]

21 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion would be another Aegon IV.

Aegon IV sounds almost like the opposite of Tyrion. Aegon had all the physical gifts, support of family, and a desire to rule for the sake of power itself. The trouble was that he could not control his base urges. Tyrion drinks a lot and goes to whores, but he does it when he has no clearly defined goal. During his time as Hand of the King, he reigned in his excesses, and he also wanted to be faithful to one woman. It's the woman he loved that betrayed him though and sent him spiraling again. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

37 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion would be another Aegon IV.

Not really. Tyrion lacks Aegon IV's petty cruelty and power hungry dickishness. He also isn't a retard that would delegitimize his own heir through rumors and legitimize all his bastards.