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Lady Winter Rose

If not Dany, then who?

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28 minutes ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

I wasn't the one making that assumption. When I was back here very long time ago, I seen pretty much hate towards Dany in books and reasoning was that she was too perfect, while Tyrion was getting great praise.

Not directed at you,  @Lady Winter Rose My implication was that it is invalid for anyone to make the argument that any character arc can be labeled as anything before the arc is finished. Therefore, those arguments can be ignored.

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4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 Edmure genuinely cares about his people and wasn't a bad lord, he needs to get a little wiser tho;

That´s heavy. The first 3 things coming to mind about Edmure are weak, weak and the guy who f**ks stuff up.

Honestly I´d rather have an uncaring but strong monarch than someone like him.

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34 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

That´s heavy. The first 3 things coming to mind about Edmure are weak, weak and the guy who f**ks stuff up.

Honestly I´d rather have an uncaring but strong monarch than someone like him.

I think Cat tends to see him as weaker than he actually is, and condescend to him in a way that a way older sister raised to rule would do with a way younger brother who ended up ruling.

At the beginning of the war he fell right into Tywin's trap, yes, but what else was he to do? left his people and lands to be killed raped and burnt? And he did beat Tywin in Riverrun, he messed things up for Robb, but he couldn't know that.

I'm not saying that he's one of the greatest leaders out there or anything, but he's good to his people and smart enough to be a decent one, if he gets wiser (and a good council) he'd be good enough ruler.

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21 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm not saying that he's one of the greatest leaders out there or anything, but he's good to his people and smart enough to be a decent one, if he gets wiser (and a good council) he'd be good enough ruler.

Often a king that listens to good council, leads towards a prosperous kingdom. 

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16 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

If you think Dany isn't suitable for throne of Westeros:

1) why does Martin write her chapters?

2) who would be better choice for the throne?

1) He wrote Theon POVs too. All Hail King Cockless Wonder Reek! 

2)Patchface. Or Dolorous Edd

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To the OP: I have come to the conclusion that Martin took the Dark Overlord trope (think Sauron) and stood it on its head.

What if the Dark Overlord isn't a black, brutish guy but instead a beautiful, blonde young girl?

What if the Dark Overlord doesn't simply do evil for evil's sake but has understandable motives, some of them even admirable?

What if the Dark Overlord actually as a valid claim to the throne?

I think we are witnessing an experiment on how readers react when the Dark Overlord  trope does not come with its usual trappings but looks harmless and pretty and has not only ambition but also a desire to help. Do we readers suddenly find their actions okay? Are we more forgiving than we would be otherwise?

If we look deeper though all of Dany's partly noble motivations and good looks can't quite hide that at the core she pulls a Sauron:

- She has an army of brutal, rapist savages

- She has three fire-breathing monsters that can lay waste to entire cities

- She is an invader from a foreign country

- She comes to conquer the whole continent

I also think and hope though that Martin has given Dany a more versatile role than Tolkien gave Sauron. I do think that Dany will help against the White Walkers and possibly even sacrifice her life in that war. So she may be a Sauron who ends up on the right side in the end.

We will see.

Anyways: A very important character even if she does not end up on the throne.

Edit: As to who ends up on the throne we know that from the show. Not that I'm happy with it.

 

Edited by Amris

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2 hours ago, Amris said:

If we look deeper though all of Dany's partly noble motivations and good looks can't quite hide that at the core she pulls a Sauron:

:wacko: This makes no sense, nor is it fair. Dany has the misguided idea that Westeros needs its rightful ruler to give it peace and justice, and therefore needs her to make war. And similarly, that the people of Slaver's Bay need her to make war. She's no worse than any other warlord, and better than some - at least she wants to be a good ruler, and she makes efforts to curb the violent nature of her dragons and Dothraki. Why is she Sauron, and Tyrion not?

Besides, we've already got a 'Sauron' character - it's Euron. The name. The eye sigil. And because he's evil.

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On 11/18/2020 at 3:29 PM, CamiloRP said:

(I know Quentyn wasn't such a big character, but his death does make his whole story fucking pointless)

I think Quentyn's death was the point of his story. The consequences of his death will be more important than anything he did while he was in the story.

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4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think Quentyn's death was the point of his story. The consequences of his death will be more important than anything he did while he was in the story.

Mightbe, his story has a lot of Vietnam undertones

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9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think Quentyn's death was the point of his story. The consequences of his death will be more important than anything he did while he was in the story.

Yeah, his death might be what puts Dorne against Dany and pro Aegon. And Dorne could become very important since they´re one of the few kingdoms whose military hasn´t been decimated recently.

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20 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She's no worse than any other warlord, and better than some - at least she wants to be a good ruler, and she makes efforts to curb the violent nature of her dragons and Dothraki.

She can become just as bad as Euron though. It’s a study in how power changes people and she the most powerful person in the story. The fate of millions rests on her mood that day. Wanting to do good doesn’t matter that much. That’s just a label any morally bankrupt person can slap on their actions to believe about themselves. How she treats people who oppose her is more important. 

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On 11/19/2020 at 12:16 AM, CamiloRP said:

 but what else was he to do? left his people and lands to be killed raped and burnt?

Maybe order them to leave settlements with livestock and hide in forests. I know it is easy to say, but...

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On 11/19/2020 at 12:16 AM, CamiloRP said:

At the beginning of the war he fell right into Tywin's trap, yes, but what else was he to do? left his people and lands to be killed raped and burnt? And he did beat Tywin in Riverrun, he messed things up for Robb, but he couldn't know that.

I

Well, at the very least this guy is ill-fated. True, he meant well and maybe wanted to make up for his previous failures, but he had explicit orders from Robb, his king not to engage the Lannisters. A less forgiving king could have called that treason.

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4 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Well, at the very least this guy is ill-fated. True, he meant well and maybe wanted to make up for his previous failures, but he had explicit orders from Robb, his king not to engage the Lannisters. A less forgiving king could have called that treason.

agree

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On 11/18/2020 at 11:37 AM, CamiloRP said:

Any of them, I would think. Even the cook

Born amidst the salt and smoke of the kitchens, in the light of the glow of the red ovens. He is the son of the Mad King, our savior prince that was promised and Azor Ahai reborn shall claim his birthright.

All hail Hot Pie, First of His Name.

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On 11/18/2020 at 9:49 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

If you think Dany isn't suitable for throne of Westeros:

1) why does Martin write her chapters?

I think he wrote her to show another aspect of the power dichotomy. She is showing how difficult it is for an outsider to rule a place because they don't know the culture, and don't know who they should trust, and as an outsider the people don't trust them regardless of their intent, or who they are as a person. She is also showing how one person making calls on justice on a case to case basis is inherently flawed. She has no standard set of rules and it causes her a lot of difficulty. We are shown by characters like Jamie and Jon how strict rules with no room for interpretation or circumstance is flawed, she is showing the opposite extreme to that. George is showing both extremes and their pitfalls so that he can establish a middle ground in the end without it coming out of nowhere and feeling unearned. 

I don't see how her failing to win negates her character. If she loses and lives I think it would be very interesting to read how she handles that. Likewise, I think her letting that dream go in order to save Westeros instead of defeating it would be a fantastic arc for her. Remember she didn't want Westeros, Visery's did. From the moment she started living his goals and dreams and forgot hers she has been unfulfilled and unhappy. She wants a home (not Westeros, a real home) and a loving family. She will never get that if she wins, so her getting the throne means she as a character loses on a personal level.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you think her winning a throne she never wanted, and ruling a country she hasn't seen since she was an infant, and even then she was only on Dragonstone she has never been to Westeros proper, all while making her to miserable forever is the only way for her arc to have meaning? Then ask yourself what other ways of ending her story would give her arc meaning. Then you'll have your answer. I'm assuming you connected with her on a personal level, not just with her arc of becoming queen, so think about what you connected with when Visery's was still alive and she wasn't dreaming of being queen, and think if he lived what would you want for her in the end? Whatever that answer is, her rediscovering that goal/dream will give her character arc meaning. For me it was her desire for a home like the one with the red door, and a loving family and personal security and I don't want her to give that up to become queen as we've already seen what giving up love for a crown does to a person and Cersei 2.0 isn't how I want Dany's story to end.

On 11/18/2020 at 9:49 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

2) who would be better choice for the throne?

Someone born and raised there who knows the people and the culture. I also don't think anyone could rule the whole thing effectively. I think it should be broken into at least 4 parts-The far north (I'm assuming the wall and Nights watch are going to be gone), the north, central, and the south AKA Dorn. As it is too big, with to many separate climates and needs to be effectively ruled as one country prior to technology existing. If it were broken into 4 kingdoms, there may be a great king or emperor over the other 4 who would be more of a figure head, and we know who that is. I don't get him as a day to day ruler, but a figurehead I can see. And some new checks and balances, GRRM doesn't strike me as the type to put in an absolute ruler.

On 11/18/2020 at 9:49 AM, Lady Winter Rose said:

 

Also, want to point few things... if you think Daenerys is too much Mary Sue, isn't Martin to blame for that characterization? Would you still love Martin as writer if he booted Dany out of story?

I never thought she was a Mary-Sue, and have never bothered to discus anything with anyone who is calling any character a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu, as I don't think anyone making those assessments is being honest about the characters. I find the whole picking sides and arguing thing tedious as it detracts from being able to discuss the story objectively. And the people who call characters Mary/Gary tend to be the ones arguing for one sole character and use this to try and discredit the other characters they perceive as being in their way.

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Sins of the father 

Only time will tell 

Funny how Jeffrey Archer's first two books of the Clifton Chronicles fit Daenerys's predicament ironically 

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On 11/18/2020 at 5:49 PM, Lady Winter Rose said:

If you think Dany isn't suitable for throne of Westeros:

1) why does Martin write her chapters?

2) who would be better choice for the throne?

 

Also, want to point few things... if you think Daenerys is too much Mary Sue, isn't Martin to blame for that characterization? Would you still love Martin as writer if he booted Dany out of story?

1) Because she will have impact on the end game. She is important for her dragons, as far as Westeros goes anyway - but then Essos literally exists to provide backdrop for Daenerys' story.

2) Literally anybody without dragons, but best choice would be for there to be no Iron Throne at all. Especially in premodern period, civil wars tended to be much more destructive than interstate warfare; and civil wars are hardly the only flaw of the system.

Edited by Aldarion

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1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

2) Literally anybody without dragons, but best choice would be for there to be no Iron Throne at all. Especially in premodern period, civil wars tended to be much more destructive than interstate warfare; and civil wars are hardly the only flaw of the system.

Honestly Westeros's current structure is completely cursed. The dragons allowed the Iron Throne to function in it's current state quite well during Jaehaerys's and Viserys's reigns, but as soon as the dragons were gone, what we are left with is a ridiculously weak central government, with basically no crown land or administration, relying on ridiculously strong local rulers who demand more loyalty from their vassals then the actual King, all while the King still tries ruling with an iron fist. It's just a mess really. 

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