If not Dany, then who?

[Nathan Stark]

21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think after being mocked all over Essos for capering around in chains he will be able to handle it better, but he's always going to fit that very particular niche of "good ruler bad person" which makes me roll my eyes.

The evidence for Tyrion being a good ruler is actually pretty thin. As I recall, a bread riot broke out under his watch. That's... not great leadership there, Ty. He claims to be more sympathetic to the smallfolks plight, and we know he does empathize with them on some level, but he does nothing during his time as Hand to materially make their lives better while he serves a sadistic boy king. Tyrion is great at the politicking. The actual ruling part is not something he does especially well.

[Rose of Red Lake]

21 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

The evidence fir Tyrion being a good ruler is actually pretty thin. As I recall, a bread riot broke out under his watch. That's... not great leadership there, Ty. He claims to be more sympathetic to the smallfolks plight, and we know he does empathize with them on some level, but he does nothing during his time as Hand to materially make their lives better while he serves a sadistic boy king. Tyrion is great at the politicking. The actual ruling part is not something he does especially well.

His job was to defend the city, and that came down to effective decisions, otherwise there wouldnt be the plot of Tywin coming in to steal all the credit. Look at his arguments with Tywin about the deserters, for evidence as well. He tries to send prisoners to honor Mormont's request and Tywin is just so myopic. He figures out that Stannis killed Renly, that Littlefinger shouldnt be trusted (while everyone else does), and came up with the Tyrell alliance to defend the city. If you're looking for him to pass a Bill of Rights of course you won't find that. And the bread riots are probably a lesson, because I think Tyrion is on a maturity arc. The fucker. 

[Nathan Stark]

28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

His job was to defend the city, and that came down to effective decisions, otherwise there wouldnt be the plot of Tywin coming in to steal all the credit. Look at his arguments with Tywin about the deserters, for evidence as well. He tries to send prisoners to honor Mormont's request and Tywin is just so myopic. He figures out that Stannis killed Renly, that Littlefinger shouldnt be trusted (while everyone else does), and came up with the Tyrell alliance to defend the city. If you're looking for him to pass a Bill of Rights of course you won't find that. And the bread riots are probably a lesson, because I think Tyrion is on a maturity arc. The fucker. 

Like I said, Tyrion is great at doing politics. The Tyrell alliance and his policy of defending the city are examples of good on the ground politicking. Here's the thing though: if Tywin and the Tyrells hadn't shown up at the last moment, the city would have fallen regardless of Tyrion's good defensive decisions. 

If the bread riots have a lesson to offer it is this; don't play politics while your city starves. The lack of food is literally the first thing Tyrion notices when he gets to Kings Landing, and what does he do? Procedes to have lavish dinners with Cersei and the Small Council as he squares off with the big sister and rules on behalf of his cruel nephew. When Tyrion and Ser Jacelyn talk after the riot, the most pressing question Tyrion has is "what do the people think about me?" And when given the truth, Tyrion's reaction is "how can they hate me? I'm helping them. What have I done to make them hate me?" Well, what have you done, Tyrion? Not much for the smallfolk, apparently. If Tyrion learned any lesson from the bread riot, it still hasn't manifested yet. If Tyrion is on a maturity ark, then he is maturing into a villian, which is how GRRM describes him.

I'm not expecting Tyrion to draw up a Bill of Rights, only to look beyond his privelege and treat the smallfolk with respect and decency. It's not enough to just have sympathy for their plight if you aren't going to make an attempt to improve their condition. Tyrion feels sorry for the smallfolk, even as he sees them as a backdrop. I'm sorry, but being slightly better than Cersei is not the bar he should be reaching for here. Actions speak louder than words, and so far, Tyrion's actions are largely similar to the rest of his family, being different only in degree.

[Monster_Under_the_Bed]

52 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

His job was to defend the city, and that came down to effective decisions, otherwise there wouldnt be the plot of Tywin coming in to steal all the credit. Look at his arguments with Tywin about the deserters, for evidence as well. He tries to send prisoners to honor Mormont's request and Tywin is just so myopic. He figures out that Stannis killed Renly, that Littlefinger shouldnt be trusted (while everyone else does), and came up with the Tyrell alliance to defend the city. If you're looking for him to pass a Bill of Rights of course you won't find that. And the bread riots are probably a lesson, because I think Tyrion is on a maturity arc. The fucker. 

Tyrion has proven to be a better ruler than anyone else in a very short amount of time. And he did that while having limited influence and a lunatic boy king on his back.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Amris said:

And that is one of the interesting things of the Daenerys arc to me: that it tells us something about us. Us readers.

How far are we willing to accompany Dany? Which excuses are we willing to accept? Is there a point when we say - no, I can't go there with you? Or will we accept everything she does?

Sometimes I wonder if we are part of a new Milgram Experiment. (That was the guy who famously tested how far people are willing to go to torture others if only an authority figure tells them to.)

It is of course possible that Dany will stay away from giant atrocities and actually offer a viable alternative to the current management in KL. Even in that case the question remains: where do I personally draw the line? What can be accepted for the 'higher cause' even if I dislike it? And that I am willing to accept it: what does that say about me?

I think the way to judge her is to consider what the norms of military behaviour are in this world, and then decide whether her own conduct is better or worse than those norms. Waging war as a means of settling political disputes, capital punishment, the use of torture to obtain intelligence, the sack of strongholds that are taken by storm, are all normative in this world.  My suspicion is that the employment of the chevauchee is normative as well.  OTOH, the sack of Kings Landing probably did violate normative standards, because the city opened its gates peacefully to an army that had pretended to be on its side.  I expect the behaviour of the Bloody Mummers, Ser Gregor Clegane, and Ramsay Bolton and his boys defies norms.

I think that people like Stannis, Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Daenerys are better than the norm, as commanders, even if they are still pretty hard by modern standards.   I view her campaign in Slavers Bay as a just war, imperfectly executed.

What one accepts in literature says very little about one.  I enjoy the Lord of the Rings, notwithstanding that the good guys consider that an absolute lack of mercy towards orcs is entirely fitting.  I enjoy novels about Caesar, Alexander, Genghis Khan etc., even though they’d make Tywin look like a choirboy.

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'm not expecting Tyrion to draw up a Bill of Rights, only to look beyond his privelege and treat the smallfolk with respect and decency. It's not enough to just have sympathy for their plight if you aren't going to make an attempt to improve their condition. Tyrion feels sorry for the smallfolk, even as he sees them as a backdrop. I'm sorry, but being slightly better than Cersei is not the bar he should be reaching for here. Actions speak louder than words, and so far, Tyrion's actions are largely similar to the rest of his family, being different only in degree.

Almost every POV sees the smallfolk as a backdrop, until they meet someone from the smallfolk. That's why he's on this little journey with Penny, why he becomes enslaved, why he almost starves to death on a ship - so that he can get over himself. I think you're judging him at one point in time. And I'd argue that he does understand that gaining some love of the smallfolk is necessary because he mocks Cersei for being obtuse about it - "Smashed on their own anvils, she said." Sweet Cersei, always striving to make the smallfolk love us. "No one will have their hands smashed. You have my word on it."

17 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Like I said, Tyrion is great at doing politics. The Tyrell alliance and his policy of defending the city are examples of good on the ground politicking. Here's the thing though: if Tywin and the Tyrells hadn't shown up at the last moment, the city would have fallen regardless of Tyrion's good defensive decisions. 

I dont know what you mean. I thought the Tyrell's wouldn't have struck up an alliance - to then show up at the last minute - without Tyrion politicking. He started the ball rolling, no? Tyrion leaned forward. "There is a chance here, it seems to me. Win Loras Tyrell to our cause and Lord Mace Tyrell and his bannermen might join us as well. They may have sworn their swords to Stannis for the moment, yet they cannot love the man, or they would have been his from the start."

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If the bread riots have a lesson to offer it is this; don't play politics while your city starves. The lack of food is literally the first thing Tyrion notices when he gets to Kings Landing, and what does he do? Procedes to have lavish dinners with Cersei and the Small Council as he squares off with the big sister and rules on behalf of his cruel nephew.

Politics isn't play, for him, that's doing work. Clocking in. If he would put that energy under a good king, that would be great, but first you have to admit that he was good at ruling, otherwise what in the world is GRRM writing with him?

He knows that he failed after the riots - "why do they hate me" is a cursory reading. Tyrion rages in person but internally, blames himself at the end of that conversation: “Perhaps my lord father was right to despise me all these years, if this is the best I can achieve." Sounds like maturity arc to me. And the smallfolk giving credit to Joffrey and Cersei is hilariously unfair. He also slaps and kicks Joffrey at multiple points, even while the riots are going on. Which was hilariously satisfying.

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If Tyrion learned any lesson from the bread riot, it still hasn't manifested yet. If Tyrion is on a maturity ark, then he is maturing into a villian, which is how GRRM describes him.

A villain to women around him, and a villain to Sansa, maybe, but that does not preclude good ruler. Who do you think GRRM was talking about when he harped on that? If you read his political views he wants someone to rule who has a stomach for a fight, who knows history, who isn't needlessly cruel, and who can see through lies. If he's awful in his personal life, that's just depth of character. We already see a prelude to this, with Randyll and Jaehaerys. 

 

[SeanF]

As Lady Genna pointed out, Tyrion is the child of Tywin who most resembles him.  Tywin was cruel and nasty, but an effective Hand and Lord Paramount.  If you were a Western peasant, you’d see the Reynes and Tarbecks as pests to be destroyed.  Tytos was worse for the peasants than Tywin

[The Sleeper]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As Lady Genna pointed out, Tyrion is the child of Tywin who most resembles him.  Tywin was cruel and nasty, but an effective Hand and Lord Paramount.  If you were a Western peasant, you’d see the Reynes and Tarbecks as pests to be destroyed.  Tytos was worse for the peasants than Tywin

That would have been until he took their husbands and sons to a war they had nothing to do with never to return and the northmen ravaged their own homes and livelihoods. 

It also would not have included those with the misfortune of living in Clegane lands. 

That statement is a little bit of a minefield. Ultimately I imagine Tywin is as good for his peasants as Roose is for his. 

[SeanF]

17 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

That would have been until he took their husbands and sons to a war they had nothing to do with never to return and the northmen ravaged their own homes and livelihoods. 

It also would not have included those with the misfortune of living in Clegane lands. 

That statement is a little bit of a minefield. Ultimately I imagine Tywin is as good for his peasants as Roose is for his. 

Fair points.  Tyrion himself sees nothing objectionable in his father’s methods of waging war.

[Monster_Under_the_Bed]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

A villain to women around him, and a villain to Sansa

Wait, what? From what I recall, Tyrion didn't choose to marry her, he was forced into it. Neither did she want to marry him and Tyrion knows it. Tyrion gives her space and never demands for her to fulfill wifely duties, which I think is more than 99% of Westerosi men would do.

[Nathan Stark]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Almost every POV sees the smallfolk as a backdrop, until they meet someone from the smallfolk. That's why he's on this little journey with Penny, why he becomes enslaved, why he almost starves to death on a ship - so that he can get over himself. I think you're judging him at one point in time. And I'd argue that he does understand that gaining some love of the smallfolk is necessary because he mocks Cersei for being obtuse about it - "Smashed on their own anvils, she said." Sweet Cersei, always striving to make the smallfolk love us. "No one will have their hands smashed. You have my word on it."

 

You make it sound like Tyrion chose to become enslaved, chose to starve himself. What is he, Ghandi? Nope. I have four books worth of material to compare how Tyrion's thoughts line up with his actions. The example you give of Tyrion's awareness of keeping the smallfolk loyal notably occurs before the bread riot, not after it, which indicates that he didn't do much more than not crush people's hands. Again, not being as bad as Cersei is not the bar we should be aiming for.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont know what you mean. I thought the Tyrell's wouldn't have struck up an alliance - to then show up at the last minute - without Tyrion politicking. He started the ball rolling, no? Tyrion leaned forward. "There is a chance here, it seems to me. Win Loras Tyrell to our cause and Lord Mace Tyrell and his bannermen might join us as well. They may have sworn their swords to Stannis for the moment, yet they cannot love the man, or they would have been his from the start."

What I mean is that in spite of all of Tyrion's efforts, the Lannisters would have lost Kings Landing if Tywin had not arrived when he did. Tyrion deserves credit for setting up the Tyrell/Lannister alliance. It is still a matter of sheer luck that the city didn't fall.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Politics isn't play, for him, that's doing work. Clocking in. If he would put that energy under a good king, that would be great, but first you have to admit that he was good at ruling, otherwise what in the world is GRRM writing with him?

For someone who only sees politics as work, Tyrion seems to be enjoying himself. "It is real, all of it," he thought, "the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game... and me in the center of it... me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This was what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it..."

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He knows that he failed after the riots - "why do they hate me" is a cursory reading. Tyrion rages in person but internally, blames himself at the end of that conversation: “Perhaps my lord father was right to despise me all these years, if this is the best I can achieve." Sounds like maturity arc to me. 

To me this sounds more like Tyrion's self-loathing and daddy issues coming to the fore. He hates his father, but secretly craves Tywin's approval. At no point does Tyrion think "what could I do to improve the smallfolk's impression of me? How can I address their concerns and win them to our side?" Lamenting your failures is only a maturity ark if you learn something from them. What Tyrion is doing here is wallowing in self-pity.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

A villain to women around him, and a villain to Sansa, maybe, but that does not preclude good ruler. Who do you think GRRM was talking about when he harped on that? If you read his political views he wants someone to rule who has a stomach for a fight, who knows history, who isn't needlessly cruel, and who can see through lies. If he's awful in his personal life, that's just depth of character. We already see a prelude to this, with Randyll and Jaehaerys. 

I think GRRM was talking about Tyrion when he was "harping on that." Here's the quote; "I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villian of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villian." One's definition of "needlessly cruel" might vary. Personally, turning Simon the Singer into a bowl of brown and raping the Pentoshi slave in Illyrio's manse strike me as being needlessly cruel. George has said that the best rulers are those who see ruling as a duty and a service to their people, rather than something to which they are entitled. Tyrion enters Kings Landing planning on doing justice, but loses sight of that goal. He is good at politics, but falls short of being a truly just ruler.

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And the smallfolk giving credit to Joffrey and Cersei is hilariously unfair. He also slaps and kicks Joffrey at multiple points, even while the riots are going on. Which was hilariously satisfying.

I wanted to save this one for last because it gets to the heart of what I'm arguing. First off, however, I have to point out that the smallfolk in no way give any credit to Joffrey or Cersei. Joffrey has poop thrown at him, and Cersei is called "brotherfucker." These hardly seem like compliments.

But Tyrion slapping and kicking Joffrey is hilariously satisfying, yes. That's the point. Tyrion is a hilariously satisfying character, a voice of scientific reason and rationality in a city full of people like Cersei. We'll be snickering at his japes right up to the point he does something drastic, like trying to rape Sansa or something. The author is distracting us from Tyrion's escalating depravity by having him be a smart and funny underdog. It doesn't mean that Tyrion isn't becoming increasingly dark, increasingly villianous.

In his last chapter in A Storm of Swords, when he murders Tywin on the toilet, Tyrion says to him, "why I believe I'm you writ small." That's as good as a big, red, flashing neon sign telling us that wherever he's headed, Tyrion is going nowhere good. 

[Wall Flower]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

As Lady Genna pointed out, Tyrion is the child of Tywin who most resembles him.  Tywin was cruel and nasty, but an effective Hand and Lord Paramount.  If you were a Western peasant, you’d see the Reynes and Tarbecks as pests to be destroyed.  Tytos was worse for the peasants than Tywin

For some of the Westerlands peasants maybe but not for those serving on Gregor Clegane's land or those who drowned in the mines along with the Reynes. Tywin's obviously very bad news for the small folks of the Riverlands and any living in King's Landing at the time of the sack. 

[Nathan Stark]

17 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

For some of the Westerlands peasants maybe but not for those serving on Gregor Clegane's land or those who drowned in the mines along with the Reynes. Tywin's obviously very bad news for the small folks of the Riverlands and any living in King's Landing at the time of the sack. 

Even by Westerosi standards, Tywin is a war criminal. Just an awful, all around monster. Saying Tywin was at least a good Hand is like praising Stalin for brushing his teeth.

[SeanF]

22 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Even by Westerosi standards, Tywin is a war criminal. Just an awful, all around monster. Saying Tywin was at least a good Hand is like praising Stalin for brushing his teeth.

He’s a brute, whose orders are very cruel. By Westerosi standards, the murders of Elia and her children and the sack of a peaceful city are crimes.  I expect that his treatment of Riverlands peasants, and the Reynes and Tarbecks are not crimes, however.

Either way, I’d expect Tyrion to use similar methods, were he a commander.  He wanted to reduce the Vale to a wasteland, and his response to a Lord complaining his wife had been raped was “it’s called war.”  He hands suspects over for a taste of “Joffrey’s justice.”  He’s shrewder than Cersei, but equally ruthless.

That would not preclude him from being an effective leader, or advisor, nonetheless.  If and when he meets Dany, I’m sure his advice to her will be useful, but ruthless.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

He wanted to reduce the Vale to a wasteland

Eh, Book 1 Tyrion. Room for growth, I'd say. Plus he'll be very glad he didn't do that once he realizes how important the Vale is when it comes to feeding the realm. 

Tywin, Jaime, and Cersei are too harsh. Tywin with the Reynes and Red Wedding, Cersei wants to turn the Iron Islands to an island of skulls, Jaime wonders the Brackens don't just kill all the Blackwoods. You can't keep ruling a realm like that over and over and expect it to flourish. So where are the differences? They all can't be Tywin's "real" sons/daughters. I think Cersei is Tywin's real son and Tyrion has youngest child syndrome.

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

You make it sound like Tyrion chose to become enslaved, chose to starve himself. What is he, Ghandi?

Gandhi. FTFY

Whatever differences I have with that guy, he was a great man. And to think of the Nobel Peace prize being denied to him ... While Kofi Annan and Obama got it. 

Spoiler

But 1948 was an instance when there was an obvious candidate who was somehow ignored: That year, Mahatma Gandhi, who led India's non-violent movement for independence, was assassinated. He'd been nominated 12 times previously, but shunned. 

And that pathetically miserably pretending tRump 

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Tyrion says to him, "why I believe I'm you writ small." That's as good as a big, red, flashing neon sign telling us that wherever he's headed, Tyrion is going nowhere good. 

Well I took that differently - more as a jab at Tywin's sexual proclivities that Tyrion had just discovered. Not at Tyrion replicating into Evil Dwarf Tywin 2.0. I don't think Tyrion is going to be exactly like his dad because I think Tyrion is book smart, and his dad is not. His dad wants a beautiful jock for an heir. Among other key differences.

9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think GRRM was talking about Tyrion when he was "harping on that." Here's the quote; "I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villian of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villian." 

Here is another quote: "Tyrion is Martin's favorite character, but from the perspective of House Stark, he's certainly a villain -- someone once said that a villain was a hero on the other side." (x)

He also said that"Tyrion is his favorite character and, despite the "no regrets" sentiments he expressed at the previous panel, he admitted that he feels hesitation over how to write him - George feels conflict between not wanting to make the guy seem like a dick because he likes Tyrion and portraying someone who has been through what Tyrion has been through, along with all the hurt, confusion, and betrayal that comes along with [it]" (x) 

Which to me, sounds we're not supposed to judge him too harshly but appreciate his darkness (take it up with the author). More recently, I remember him saying that Tyrion is perfectly grey, that he's "most like [him]," and that he thinks Tyrion would be a good politician in Washington. But I don't have those links on me right now. I have quotes for days.

You really think this is a straight-up "villain" arc? I wish it would be so simple, because he is one of my most hated characters. But you know, I also try to see what the author is doing.

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He is good at politics, but falls short of being a truly just ruler.

What even is that? When the guy who is a paragon of justice burns his own daughter - that flies out the window. So where does Tyrion fit? I can only see bad person, good ruler as a counter to "when you're a good person, the land will prosper." I will be the first to poke holes in the idea but GRRM has mentioned it too often. To some, Tyrion is a rapist ...but he tries to prevent the women of KL from being raped by Stannis men. This is quintessentially GRRM and he cackles as we debate this for 20 years. 

9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

At no point does Tyrion think "what could I do to improve the smallfolk's impression of me? How can I address their concerns and win them to our side?" 

He knows how to do that, with bread. But he doesn't have enough of it because there are too many people. He says as much. 

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At no point does Tyrion think "what could I do to improve the smallfolk's impression of me?

That's kind of irrelevant. If he puts his head down and does the work, does it matter if they don't love him in particular? They're supposed to love his boss, the king.

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Lamenting your failures is only a maturity ark if you learn something from them. 

The incident does come back to him when he notices that a similar anger is present in Volantis. We should probably wait to judge what he's learned about food riots when we see him in a ruling position again, because he hasn't been in one.

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What Tyrion is doing here is wallowing in self-pity.

Sure, but he's also admitting he failed. Something you want in a ruler.

9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

You make it sound like Tyrion chose to become enslaved, chose to starve himself. What is he, Ghandi? Nope. 

I was using a Doylist analysis, that's how they are written. The author chooses these things. Essos is a bottom point with Penny as a light in his darkness, with another rock bottom point with Dany to come. I think the arc is about forcing him to lose all enjoyment he has for ruling and will eventually want a simple life with Penny. So that...characters don't get what they want.

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I have four books worth of material to compare how Tyrion's thoughts line up with his actions. The example you give of Tyrion's awareness of keeping the smallfolk loyal notably occurs before the bread riot, not after it, which indicates that he didn't do much more than not crush people's hands. Again, not being as bad as Cersei is not the bar we should be aiming for.

Well mostly, we don't see him doing that, because the Tyrells are already doing it. While Margaery is giving out food he gives out coins for bread. It's not a material change, but no one is really doing that in Westeros. He's also tied up for the rest of the novel with a marriage and a court case, if I remember. Also didn't we have a discussion in another thread about the dangers of using the smallfolk's views as an argument for X position? I think we've reached that point.

[SeanF]

Martin is a fan of Richard III, and Tyrion is pretty much his version of Shakespeare’s Richard III.  He might be aiming for an outcome in which Richard wins, rather than getting his comeuppance.  Or maybe he’ll be Iago?

 

[Aldarion]

18 hours ago, Amris said:

And that is one of the interesting things of the Daenerys arc to me: that it tells us something about us. Us readers.

How far are we willing to accompany Dany? Which excuses are we willing to accept? Is there a point when we say - no, I can't go there with you? Or will we accept everything she does?

Sometimes I wonder if we are part of a new Milgram Experiment. (That was the guy who famously tested how far people are willing to go to torture others if only an authority figure tells them to.)

It is of course possible that Dany will stay away from giant atrocities and actually offer a viable alternative to the current management in KL. Even in that case the question remains: where do I personally draw the line? What can be accepted for the 'higher cause' even if I dislike it? And that I am willing to accept it: what does that say about me?

Exactly. That is why I think "evil overlord Daenerys" is actually not a D&D invention. It might have been done badly, but it was almost certainly from GRRM himself.

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

I am familiar with the Milgram experiment. I have to say I don't see the connection here. How far are we willing to accompany Dany on her quest to liberate people from slavery? I'm with her all the way on that one. I don't think there's a way you can turn eliminating slavery into a bad thing. Dumb and Dumber tried, not particularly well. The basic argument I'm reading here is that Dany doing bad things to slave masters makes Dany a bad person. There's more nuance than that.

Dany's crimes, such that they are, come about by not thinking through all of the consequences of her actions. The "Great and Wise" Masters crimes come about through centuries of dehumanizing people and tortuturing people because Ghiscari "culture" says it's okay. Dany wants to put an end to slavery and free people from bondage, while the Masters want the freedom to watch bears devour children. I think on the scale of people who do bad things, Dany comes off relatively light here.

For now. Question here is how she will develop from there on.

And, as far as I am concerned, what she did to slave masters has nothing to do with how Daenerys will develop in the future. It is her general situation and attitude that make me wary. She has dragons, she has a rather large popular following, and she has no checks upon her power. You know who else was in such a situation? Mao Zedong. Unlike Stalin, he does not appear to have been evil himself. His land reform was basically what some people want Dany to do.

He still killed millions, most of them through sheer incompetence, but many were also murdered in pogroms.

It was a consequence of centralization of power: central government cannot ever reliably answer to various challenges. And dragons mean exactly that: centralization of power, be it with a single person or with a ruling dragonrider clique. And as centralization increases, so do challenges to the government - which are often suppressed violently.

What Westeros needs are not dragons. It needs free cities, cities as feudal overlords essentially, which so far are nowhere in evidence. Ideal system would be that of Roman Republic or Middle Byzantine Empire, but feudalism and lack of cities makes such a setup impossible. Even HRE's system, which is one of my "ideal trinity" along with two already mentioned, is difficult to realize.

17 hours ago, broken one said:

Where do you people take the visions of Dany the Pol Pot from? Am I blind? This is fascinating.

See above.

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Exactly. That is why I think "evil overlord Daenerys" is actually not a D&D invention. It might have been done badly, but it was almost certainly from GRRM himself.

For now. Question here is how she will develop from there on.

And, as far as I am concerned, what she did to slave masters has nothing to do with how Daenerys will develop in the future. It is her general situation and attitude that make me wary. She has dragons, she has a rather large popular following, and she has no checks upon her power. You know who else was in such a situation? Mao Zedong. Unlike Stalin, he does not appear to have been evil himself. His land reform was basically what some people want Dany to do.

He still killed millions, most of them through sheer incompetence, but many were also murdered in pogroms.

It was a consequence of centralization of power: central government cannot ever reliably answer to various challenges. And dragons mean exactly that: centralization of power, be it with a single person or with a ruling dragonrider clique. And as centralization increases, so do challenges to the government - which are often suppressed violently.

What Westeros needs are not dragons. It needs free cities, cities as feudal overlords essentially, which so far are nowhere in evidence. Ideal system would be that of Roman Republic or Middle Byzantine Empire, but feudalism and lack of cities makes such a setup impossible. Even HRE's system, which is one of my "ideal trinity" along with two already mentioned, is difficult to realize.

See above.

Mao was a piece of work from the outset.

Dany trying to complete her great-grandfather’s reforms, being branded like him a “tyrant”, resorting to force, and being brought down by the lords, is an entirely plausible outcome.  Even dragons are no protection from an assassin’s knife.  She could easily finish up on the opposite side to other sympathetic characters in such a conflict.