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Can you help Bowen Marsh clean up Jon's mess?


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2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Bowen's next move should be burning Jon's body to prevent Snow Wight from coming back.  We know he can't do that because he needs the body to prove he has cleaned up the house and gotten rid of Jon.   He should tie up the body and lock it up in a secure cell.

Typically Snow Wights are dealt with using a poisoned apple

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21 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

The  Watch has stood for thousands of years and it only took one long-faced boy with a giant chip on his shoulders (and emotional baggage) to cause this much damage.  Jon's many screwups can't be fixed.  The Watch is now fractured between the Crows and the wildlings.  It should have been united but Jon just couldn't keep himself out of Ramsay's business and had to stick his big snoot in.  Jon's leadership was a failure.  Bowen Marsh has his work cut out for him.  He might consider getting rid of Jon's dire wolf as a first or second step towards bringing back order.  

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11 hours ago, Lady Topspin said:

Jon made too big of a disaster but at least Marsh took the first step in getting things sorted when he ended Jon's tenure.  Marsh is too honorable a man for what I am about to suggest but here it is.  Kill the giant and blame him for killing Jon Snow.  His guys may have to embellish the physical damage to the corpse to make it believable.  

Inspired by show Daario?  I don't see the need.  Every loyal man in black will have no problem with the assassination after what they heard at the Shield Hall.  Even old Aemon Targaryen would have given his blessings to remove Jon from power.  

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Many people here seem to think that Bowen Marsh is soon to die, the thing is, the murder plot seems like it's been planned for some time. Othell Yarwyck seems to purposedly get Jon drunk, for example. So it would be dumb of the conspirators to not have a plan of what to do after the murder. The Shield Hall could be easily closed and burnt down, and I assume they have more plans than that,

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5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Many people here seem to think that Bowen Marsh is soon to die, the thing is, the murder plot seems like it's been planned for some time. Othell Yarwyck seems to purposedly get Jon drunk, for example. So it would be dumb of the conspirators to not have a plan of what to do after the murder. The Shield Hall could be easily closed and burnt down, and I assume they have more plans than that,

That's all well and good, but this is GRRM we're talking about. The plans his characters come up with basically never go according to plan. There are a few similarities between Jon's murder and the assasination of Julius Ceasar. Look how well that conspiracy turned out for the conspirators.

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On 11/19/2020 at 12:38 AM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

I reject the premise of the question. Marsh isn't dealing with Jon's problem, he is faced with a situation of his own making.

If Jon had died in his sleep or had a random heart attack after making the Shieldhall speech then we could talk about Bowen having inherited the situation as Jon left it, but Marsh's choices and actions have already changed the situation so he is facing a different set of problems.

Consider the various factions at the Wall:

- Free Folk.

Jon had friends and allies among the wildlings who were willing to commit to his plans. There are also wildlings that distrust and dislike him, and remain because they are under guard or because of the agreed terms for passage through the Wall.

Marsh has distrust of all wildlings. Some will be opposed to him because of his assassination of Jon, others because they hate the NW. His advantages over them are the Rangers set as guards, and the 100 hostages. The latter is an advantage, not  problem, he inherited from Jon's choices.

- Southrons.

Selyse's faction strongly dislike if not hate Jon. But they would have been unlikely to direct oppose him with violence if not for Bowen's attack, given that Jon's intention was to ride south and fight Stannis' enemies.

Marsh and the Queen's men will likely be able to co-exist given their shared hatred for wildlings. But Marsh will still in the position of having to accommodate a guest who is not easily pleased.

Mel viewed Jon as a tool of the Lord of Light, that she sought as an ally. I doubt she has given Marsh more then a passing thought. She probably will not directly oppose him, but will work around him to achieve her own ends.

- NW.

The watch is divided, before the Shieldhall more Rangers thought like Jon, more of the Stewards and Builders were of a mind with Bowen.

After the initial fighting has settled down Marsh will likely have control of Castle Black, with perhaps a few Jon loyalists under arrest or fled to another fort. However his control may not be established immediately, which may cause new problems if the Rangers keeping the wildlings under guard at CB & Moles town are distracted.

Jon did have decent command of the other manned Forts; over Pyke and Mallister because he was elected LC, at the minor forts through careful selection of the officers. Marsh should not expect them all to recognise his authority; Pyke and Mallister would not think he outranks them.

So, Jon faced a set of problems, Marsh will face a set of problems. But they are not all the same ones, and not all created by Jon.

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4 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

That's all well and good, but this is GRRM we're talking about. The plans his characters come up with basically never go according to plan. There are a few similarities between Jon's murder and the assasination of Julius Ceasar. Look how well that conspiracy turned out for the conspirators.

The plans only work poorly when they are revealed to the reader beforehand, but BM's plan hasn't been revealed to us (yet).

I'm not claiming he's definitely going to survive, but I don't think he's death is as forgone a conclusion as most people here seem to believe.

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No, no, I do not envy Bowen at all.  The poor man has a Herculean task ahead of him after what his ex-lord commander left behind.  Outside help will be required as in the past when the N-K had to be removed.  But outside help is not coming unless it comes from Essos in the form of Daenerys and her armed forces.  The north is too fractured right now and engaged in unproductive family feuds.  Making matters worse is the weeper and his group.  It's only a matter of time before the northern barbarians come to the gate.  

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9 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

There are a few similarities between Jon's murder and the assasination of Julius Ceasar. Look how well that conspiracy turned out for the conspirators.

About as well as his supporters. Civil war dominated Romes life after Caesar died, worse then when he was alive. Pretty much everyone dies eventually, except Caesar (v.2) who has now become the greatest ruler of all time. 

So, Snowish. For sure. 

9 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

So it would be dumb of the conspirators to not have a plan of what to do after the murder

Completely agree. Whatever we wish to say about the xenophobe red pomegranate we must not say he is not stupid. 

A craven, yes. A useless pencil pusher, sure. Neither trait is used for stabbing LC's with the pointy end. 

 

So, control of CB is a must. Let all the crows, freefolk and queens men do whatever they want, but the conspirators must control CB.  A strong anti Jon hand like Ser Allisers gotta be in on it, but since his hand probably stabbed Jon lastly then hes already there. This is important because the 999th election is needed asap and the two biggest voting blocks are Mallister and Pyke who probably have their own interests, like Jon, Bowen, Tormund, Selyse Melisandre and Satin for all I know. 

On 11/19/2020 at 5:32 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Typically Snow Wights are dealt with using a poisoned apple

Bravo

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On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

Very carefully.  He has to send assurances to Roose and Ramsay.  They need to know that Jon and only Jon was responsible for sending the wildlings.  Marsh should swear to remain and warn them of the wildling threat coming to attack.

 

Mellisandre and some of the people in the Stannis camp will be troublesome.  But an offer of a pardon from Roose would bring just about all of them to their knees in exchange for mercy.  I like the suggestion from the previous page to fool the wildlings and make them think the giant troll killed Jon Snow. 

The return of a wighted Jon is a given at this point.  He comes back meaner and crazier than he ever was with a single thought in his head.  Find Arya and kill anybody who gets in his way.  This mad killing machine will have his own wighted body but his consciousness will be in Ghost.  The two will be inseparable by necessity.  Bowen Marsh should put Ghost in the dirt but I am sure some freaky accident will save the wolf. 

 

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Marsh hates wildings and ~100% wildings will oppose him. 50% of NW will oppose him. Queens men and Mel will oppose him, not to mention what Stannis would do - in fact Marsh is Lannister's agent (or just useful idiot). 

I assume he got it would be suicide mission for him. Otherwise he's dumber than Hodor. 

I bet Wun Wun tears him to pieces on the spot, cannot wait to find out :D 

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On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

He took an effective first step and used his dagger to get rid of the source.  

 

On 11/19/2020 at 6:41 AM, Lady Topspin said:

Jon made too big of a disaster but at least Marsh took the first step in getting things sorted when he ended Jon's tenure.  Marsh is too honorable a man for what I am about to suggest but here it is.  Kill the giant and blame him for killing Jon Snow.  His guys may have to embellish the physical damage to the corpse to make it believable.  

Right again.  Passing the blame to WunWun is a great idea but out of Bowen Marsh's boundaries.  It could work but he's an honest man.  He will accept the consequences of his decisions.  He was right but justice will be hard to come by from the wildlings.  

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My prediction for what it's worth:

There's zero - ZERO - indication anyone saw Marsh and co so he slips back into the crowd. They bring an unconscious (don't think he's dead) Jon to Marsh! In the confusion, the wildlings ditch the Wall and head to Stannis at Winterfell for Mance with Ghost knowing it's Jon.

Marsh can't risk Jon waking up and talking and we've been told over and over about no Maester being around so he ships him off like Maester Aemon/Sam/Gilly (hence why we see that through their POV). We're told that Marsh's dude now runs Eastwatch (again, no Maester, could wake up and talk), so he dumps Jon on the food ship (Marsh obsessed with food supplies) to the Vale* - and Lannister's henchman who is also Jon's step-Uncle Littlefinger, his closest living non-missing "relative" to heal. That's saying a lot, but it's what it is. Just because it'd be more fun, maybe Mel, Val, some wildlings get sneaky and follow him. Let's toss in the Blackfish too. Why not.

Jon gets away from the NW (we know how that's going), onto his KitN/RLJ arc (see symbolism around Maester Aemon/Sam/Gilly/Monster and compare to RLJ, also the Sleepy Jon story parallels for KitN).

TWOW Spoiler

Spoiler

In the Sansa chapter, LF runs off when a Kettleblack races in from Gulltown. Nothing to prove or disprove this time-wise, but an unexpected arrival of unconscious Jon fits right in with this as best we can tell.

In the meantime, Jon/Ghost is dealing with Winterfell. He's not abandoned fighting the Others, but he's a wolf, so options are limited. Best bet is installing Arya in place and ditching the Boltons to mobilize the North so he's the invisible white wolf sneaking around Winterfell (told a lot in ADWD about how Ghost is invisible in snow - the Ghost of Winterfell) trying to get Stannis an angle.

We had endless discussions of what Marsh wanted to do for a reason so we didn't need to be told what Marsh will do with no Wall POV. A whole lotta denial, nothing and every bad decision. They'll seal up the Wall and pretend things are all good. No story here. The epilogue of TWOW or the prologue of ADOS is Bowen Marsh and Others breaching the Wall. He dies. Hence why certain other characters need away from the Wall because they wouldn't survive that.

Or not.

*Disclaimer - for some reason, I think everyone's going to the Vale. :dunno:

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On 11/18/2020 at 8:00 PM, Allardyce said:

Help is needed and very soon.  He's out numbered by the free folk.  Here's to hoping Thorne comes back in time to save the day.  They will have to repair the social and political rift with the Boltons.  

The Wildlngs are more interested in marching to fight the Boltons.  Don't get in their way and Bowen should be fine.  Cleaning up Jon's disaster will be easier with the Wildlings out of the way. 

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On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

Send Jon's head to Ramsay.  No tarring needed because of the cold.  Ramsay would recognize the distinct Stark look.  It's proof that the Night's Watch has rid itself of the man responsible for the political fiasco.  Bowen might as well ask for more men to manage the wall too. 

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Wow most of you really view the free folk less as people and more the monsters Jon is actually trying to fight. 
 

that’s morally and strategically the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. 
 

good to know all of you would take the stewards tactical advice over someone who has had actual training on the matter. 
 

we best make sure the ice demons have all the ammunition they could ask for, why stop the world ending threat when the raiders are just so mean. 

Ignoring all that for a sec the wildlings are already past the gates the nights watch doesn’t have the nam power to stop them and they lost most if not all of their known component military leaders. 

“What about the seven kingdoms or iron throne wouldn’t they help now that Jon snow is dead” I hear you say while a fly goes in one ear and then out the other. 
 

no, stannis is off sieging winterfell, the storm lands are being invaded, dorne is too far away and too focused on revenge, highgarden is catfighting with Cersei who no wouldn’t help anyways, the vale is on littlefingers strings who may want winterfell but they’re waiting for the right time, euron would probably be stoked the ice Demons are coming and the river land are on fire. 

but hey at least the evil wildling sympathizer Jon snow is dead right? 

 

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