Can you help Bowen Marsh clean up Jon's mess?

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/19/2020 at 9:29 AM, LynnS said:

Bowen Marsh is a crannogman?  I suppose it's in the name.

He is

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/20/2020 at 11:26 AM, CamiloRP said:

Many people here seem to think that Bowen Marsh is soon to die, the thing is, the murder plot seems like it's been planned for some time. Othell Yarwyck seems to purposedly get Jon drunk, for example. So it would be dumb of the conspirators to not have a plan of what to do after the murder. The Shield Hall could be easily closed and burnt down, and I assume they have more plans than that,

There was no conspiracy from Bowen against Jon.  Those men were obedient even though they disagreed with Jon's decisions.  They decided to remove him from power only when he admitted to letting Mance Rayder go unpunished for his crimes and then sending Mance to bring his sister to the Wall.  Jon put these good, honest men of the watch in a of state emergency after he announced his intentions to immediately lead the Wildlings to attack House Bolton.  The assassination would have gone smoother if they had the time to properly plan ahead.  A trial could have been held and the outcome will be the beheading of Jon Snow for treason and failure to competently carry out his duties.  But Jon planned before making his public announcement.  He got the Wildlings support first to prevent the good men of the watch from stopping him from attacking House Bolton.  Assassination was the only way to stop Jon from leading the Wildling attack on House Bolton.  

[Lollygag]

9 hours ago, RedDragon said:

Wow most of you really view the free folk less as people and more the monsters Jon is actually trying to fight. 
 

that’s morally and strategically the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. 
 

good to know all of you would take the stewards tactical advice over someone who has had actual training on the matter. 
 

we best make sure the ice demons have all the ammunition they could ask for, why stop the world ending threat when the raiders are just so mean. 

Ignoring all that for a sec the wildlings are already past the gates the nights watch doesn’t have the nam power to stop them and they lost most if not all of their known component military leaders. 

“What about the seven kingdoms or iron throne wouldn’t they help now that Jon snow is dead” I hear you say while a fly goes in one ear and then out the other. 
 

no, stannis is off sieging winterfell, the storm lands are being invaded, dorne is too far away and too focused on revenge, highgarden is catfighting with Cersei who no wouldn’t help anyways, the vale is on littlefingers strings who may want winterfell but they’re waiting for the right time, euron would probably be stoked the ice Demons are coming and the river land are on fire. 

but hey at least the evil wildling sympathizer Jon snow is dead right? 

 

GRRM sets up the readers to fall into the game of thrones like the characters do themselves. Given his opinion of the game, can't imagine how that'll go in the end.

[James West]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

Avoid doing anything rash.  Let the wildlings do what they're going to and wait for the results.  Make peace with Ramsay if he wins.  Do otherwise if the wildlings come out on top. 

[TheLastWolf]

10 hours ago, Shierak Qiya said:

Send Jon's head to Ramsay.  No tarring needed because of the cold.  Ramsay would recognize the distinct Stark look.  It's proof that the Night's Watch has rid itself of the man responsible for the political fiasco.  Bowen might as well ask for more men to manage the wall too. 

Speaks about the kind of person you are. Sympathizing with scum like Boltons (and Freys earlier) for your meaningless prejudiced hate. And the kind of character you support. 

Enough posting in these Stark hate threads. Rationality only gets ignored. And these hate posters get more views and replies. Boycott. Let them rant on toxically. 

[CamiloRP]

11 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

There was no conspiracy from Bowen against Jon.  Those men were obedient even though they disagreed with Jon's decisions.  They decided to remove him from power only when he admitted to letting Mance Rayder go unpunished for his crimes and then sending Mance to bring his sister to the Wall.  Jon put these good, honest men of the watch in a of state emergency after he announced his intentions to immediately lead the Wildlings to attack House Bolton.  The assassination would have gone smoother if they had the time to properly plan ahead.  A trial could have been held and the outcome will be the beheading of Jon Snow for treason and failure to competently carry out his duties.  But Jon planned before making his public announcement.  He got the Wildlings support first to prevent the good men of the watch from stopping him from attacking House Bolton.  Assassination was the only way to stop Jon from leading the Wildling attack on House Bolton.  

The stabbing happens right before Jon read the letter, there just isn't enough time for them to plan even the "Okey, we all stab him while saying 'For the Watch.'" bit. There's also the fact that Yarwyck had been encouraging Jon to drink that very afternoon. And there are many more things that point to a conspiracy too. It's been a couple of busy days, but I'll come back with more reasons why I think this.

[Rondo]

19 hours ago, James West said:

Avoid doing anything rash.  Let the wildlings do what they're going to and wait for the results.  Make peace with Ramsay if he wins.  Do otherwise if the wildlings come out on top. 

The Wildlings have very little chance of winning and Bowen Marsh has a duty to stop them.  He should not attempt to prevent them from leaving for Winterfell but he at least should notify the Boltons.  

[Darth Sidious]

14 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The stabbing happens right before Jon read the letter, there just isn't enough time for them to plan even the "Okey, we all stab him while saying 'For the Watch.'" bit. There's also the fact that Yarwyck had been encouraging Jon to drink that very afternoon. And there are many more things that point to a conspiracy too. It's been a couple of busy days, but I'll come back with more reasons why I think this.

Very well, I’ll make it a point to check back.  My opinion, the assassination was a sudden and desperate decision to stop Jon.  WW going berserk was a coincident.  

[Pontius Pilate]

I would have pretended to go along with Jon's plan and even suggest to take all of the remaining Stannis loyalists with him.  Wait for them to leave and then send a message to Ramsay.  Disavow Jon's decisions on the message and hope to god Ramsay buys it. 

The Baratheon men will do as the Dragonstone garrison was about to do.  Make peace with the winning side and give up Selyse, Shireen, and Mel.  It's an interesting turnabout.  The men on Dragonstone were about to sell out King Viserys the 3rd and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  His own men are now going to sell Selyse and Shireen to Roose.  It is rather ironic isn't it.  Weather destroyed the Targaryen fleet.  What if a snowstorm destroys the Baratheon army. 

[CamiloRP]

13 hours ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

Very well, I’ll make it a point to check back.  My opinion, the assassination was a sudden and desperate decision to stop Jon.  WW going berserk was a coincident.  

Hi, I'm back.

I don't agree that it was a coincidence, it's a huge one, it's so lucky for the murderers that Jon was distracted. And if Ser Patrek heard the reading of the letter and thought the time was great for stealing Val... that makes no sense, as he wants Val to rule over Winterfell, yet that only works if Stannis is alive. Also, what happened to the NW men Jon positioned as guards in front of the tower to prevent Ser Patrek trying to steal Val? Where they in on it?

Mully is likely one of the two mystery stabbers, as he is most likely the one who told BM about Val going north. And before the Shieldhall meeting, Ghost mistrusted Mully, like Greywind mistrusted Freys and Westerlings before the Red Wedding. Meaning they where not trustworthy from before. He's also mistrusting of Othell Yarwyck and Bowen Marsh.

In the Shieldhall meeting there where only 50 black brothers out of about 400. And in the Wun-Wun scene, only Queensmen, Freefolk, Jon's Guards and the assassins show up. We get no mention of any other black brother. Despite there being 400 of them and a giant causing chaos. Also, Jon has bodyguards! They where either a part of the plan to kill him, which would mean that they had planned it from before, as they where with him from before the reading of the letter, or that they where attacked by other black brothers, meaning a larger conspiracy, which would require further planning.

Also, he must have a plan to not be killed by the much larger Freefolk and Queensmen army, if BM has a plan, that means it wasn't a spur of the moment decision.

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

Send a letter to the Boltons and explain how things turned sour at Castle Black. 

On 11/19/2020 at 6:41 AM, Lady Topspin said:

Jon made too big of a disaster but at least Marsh took the first step in getting things sorted when he ended Jon's tenure.  Marsh is too honorable a man for what I am about to suggest but here it is.  Kill the giant and blame him for killing Jon Snow.  His guys may have to embellish the physical damage to the corpse to make it believable.  

It's worth trying.

On 11/19/2020 at 2:17 PM, Curled Finger said:

Falling on a sword is probably Marsh's only option.   

Marsh was not the problem.  He removed the problem.  The real work of undoing what the problem did begins. 

On 11/19/2020 at 9:25 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ramsay needed to go, the free folk needed to be integrated, and the North needed a strong support in Winterfell for the coming war, but Jon didnt really plan it out well. He didnt attack Ramsay for mature reasons, he did it for hot headed, school yard reasons. Marsh was short sighted but from his perspective, Jon IS an immature hot head and there is some truth to that. Still doesnt justify as assasination though. Jon wasnt a mass murderer. 

He wasn't.  You're right there.   I have yet to come across any accusation of it.  He still needed to be stopped and Marsh had to do it fast before he leaves. 

[TheLastWolf]

41 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Send a letter to the Boltons and explain how things turned sour at Castle Black. 

Why? Unless you haters all worship Roose as Honest Abe Lincoln or something. Boltons are more like the Manson family IMO, but u won't care. 

43 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

It's worth trying

 

44 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Marsh was not the problem.  He removed the problem.  The real work of undoing what the problem did begins. 

Very good. Here's a million anti Stark brownie points. 

44 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

He wasn't.  You're right there.   I have yet to come across any accusation of it.  He still needed to be stopped and Marsh had to do it fast before he leaves. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 11/19/2020 at 6:48 AM, SeanF said:

What I would do in his shoes is to kneel before a sacred heart tree, and ask a colleague to open my throat.  That would be preferable to my likely fate as fuel for R'hllor's fires.

I don't think he will burn.  You're approaching from the point of view that Marsh is wrong.  I have to disagree with you.  He is right to me.  It is just tragic for a loyal man such as he to have gotten caught up in Jon Snow's foolishness. 

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

You're approaching from the point of view that Marsh is wrong.  I have to disagree with you.  He is right to me.  It is just tragic for a loyal man such as he to have gotten caught up in Jon Snow's foolishness. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

18 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

He wasn't.  You're right there.   I have yet to come across any accusation of it.  He still needed to be stopped and Marsh had to do it fast before he leaves. 

Why couldn't he wound him then lock him up in the ice cells.

[broken one]

ten mournful frogs will show up to carry his body to his ancestral hut, somewhere in the neck

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 11/24/2020 at 3:38 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

I would have pretended to go along with Jon's plan and even suggest to take all of the remaining Stannis loyalists with him.  Wait for them to leave and then send a message to Ramsay.  Disavow Jon's decisions on the message and hope to god Ramsay buys it. 

The Baratheon men will do as the Dragonstone garrison was about to do.  Make peace with the winning side and give up Selyse, Shireen, and Mel.  It's an interesting turnabout.  The men on Dragonstone were about to sell out King Viserys the 3rd and Princess Daenerys to Stannis.  His own men are now going to sell Selyse and Shireen to Roose.  It is rather ironic isn't it.  Weather destroyed the Targaryen fleet.  What if a snowstorm destroys the Baratheon army. 

You suggests something which is out of character for Bowen Marsh.  He is not a person who deceives others.  What he will tell Ramsay [if he gets the chance] is the truth.  You should be right on the Queen's men.  They won't be much longer.  The Stannis cause has sunk and they are not going down with him. 

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

You suggests something which is out of character for Bowen Marsh.  He is not a person who deceives others

 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

Jon created a mess so big that it would be impossible for one man to clean it up.  Marsh and Thorne may be able to at least pacify the Boltons on their own though.  They will have to guarantee to keep the Night's Watch out of politics.

[Buried Treasure]

18 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

Jon created a mess so big that it would be impossible for one man to clean it up.  Marsh and Thorne may be able to at least pacify the Boltons on their own though.  They will have to guarantee to keep the Night's Watch out of politics.

Selyse and Melisandre are guests of the NW. How do you propose Marsh placate the Boltons whilst they are resident at Castle Black?

 

Bowen Marsh can't extract the NW from politics because the Watch's need for aid is inherently political. It wasn't Jon that created that situation - Maester Aemon wrote to all the players in the Wot5K, and it was a result of the wider political situation that it was only Stannis that responded.