saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Pontius Pilate said: The defeat and death of Stannis will force them to make peace with Roose because they don't want to die in the north. Why would they trust Bolton? Stannis hasn't even lost yet. Bowen Marsh cannot tell anything worthwhile to the Boltons over a raven. 1 hour ago, Pontius Pilate said: Patrek was not the only one looking for a reward. Bolton cannot give them any reward. If they were looking to get out they would set sail to Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, saltedmalted said: Why would they trust Bolton? Especially when he's proven to be sooo trustworthy. It's not like they broke every law of hospitality and truce ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Especially when he's proven to be sooo trustworthy. It's not like they broke every law of hospitality and truce ever. Once they hand Shireen and Selyse over to Boltons they would have nothing left to bargain with. Why reward them when simpley slaughtering them is easier? Remember the Ironborn who surrendered to Ramsay Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Remember the Ironborn who surrendered to Ramsay Snow. Or hey, remember Rodrick? Masquerading as a friend to stab someone in the back is a big no no even to this day, let alone back then. 3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Once they hand Shireen and Selyse over to Boltons they would have nothing left to bargain with. And Ramsay would still be pissed they elected Jon and harbored Stannis. Fucks sake, the Pink letter is an open declaration of war, even without Jon the Watch should march out and defend itself, just like Jon wanted too before Marsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 16 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Or hey, remember Rodrick? Masquerading as a friend to stab someone in the back is a big no no even to this day, let alone back then. And Ramsay would still be pissed they elected Jon and harbored Stannis. Fucks sake, the Pink letter is an open declaration of war, even without Jon the Watch should march out and defend itself, just like Jon wanted too before Marsh. The Pink Letter was an answer to Jon Snow's declaration of war. Jon declared war when he sent Mance Rayder to help Arya. Jon acted inappropriately for a lord commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 On 3/3/2021 at 8:46 PM, Quoth the raven, said: The Pink Letter was an answer to Jon Snow's declaration of war. Jon declared war when he sent Mance Rayder to help Arya. Jon acted inappropriately for a lord commander. Sorry @Alyn Oakenfist. I'm with you on most things and I hate the Boltons as much as anyone. But I have to side with @Quoth the raven, Jon did cross the line when he cosigned the fake execution of Mance Rayder and then set him against the Boltons. That was a gross violation of the Night's Watch oaths. I think the Pink Letter is a lie because I find it unbelievable that Mance Rayder and the spearwives would be recognized as wildlings to begin with. Sure, Ramsay could've tortured that out of them but... I don't know. The contents of the letter strike me as funny. I'm still nursing the (somewhat tinfoil) theory that either Ramsay Bolton is mistaken or that Littlefinger or Mance are the ones who wrote the Pink Letter. On 2/27/2021 at 3:26 PM, King17 said: I can't really help marsh now he should've assassinated jon before he let the wildlings through the wall. Did Cersei ever get around to sending men up to the Wall to stage a mutiny and assassinate Jon? If so, that might've been what Marsh was waiting for: reinforcements. I'm not necessarily saying that the reinforcements have arrived yet. What I'm saying is that reinforcements are on the way but Marsh jumped the gun and will come to rue the moment he decided he wasn't going to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 58 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: Jon did cross the line when he cosigned the fake execution of Mance Rayder and then set him against the Boltons. That was a gross violation of the Night's Watch oaths. I cannot remember the oath exactly. Can you tell me which one you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 hour ago, BlackLightning said: Sorry @Alyn Oakenfist. I'm with you on most things and I hate the Boltons as much as anyone. But I have to side with @Quoth the raven, Jon did cross the line when he cosigned the fake execution of Mance Rayder and then set him against the Boltons. That was a gross violation of the Night's Watch oaths. I think the Pink Letter is a lie because I find it unbelievable that Mance Rayder and the spearwives would be recognized as wildlings to begin with. Sure, Ramsay could've tortured that out of them but... I don't know. The contents of the letter strike me as funny. I'm still nursing the (somewhat tinfoil) theory that either Ramsay Bolton is mistaken or that Littlefinger or Mance are the ones who wrote the Pink Letter. Did Cersei ever get around to sending men up to the Wall to stage a mutiny and assassinate Jon? If so, that might've been what Marsh was waiting for: reinforcements. I'm not necessarily saying that the reinforcements have arrived yet. What I'm saying is that reinforcements are on the way but Marsh jumped the gun and will come to rue the moment he decided he wasn't going to wait. In his defense I doubt cersei sent him a letter saying she was going to send men to kill the lord commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 What I don't get is, what is the time frame between the last time we see Ramsay and Jon's final chapter? From all we've seen of Mance, he doesn't seem like a guy who would break easily, but that's what we're meant to assume happened, if the contents of the letter are true. Assuming the letter is real (which I don't) I'm on the side that the watch was screwed regardless. Ramsay is too insane, and as already stated above has a reputation for both killing people who surrender and quite literally stabbing allies in the back. Had the watch done as he'd asked, he'd kill them anyway, just for shits and giggles knowing him. So Basically Marsh made an already complex situation even worse. You can kind of understand why, but it's still the dumbest move the guy would make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 9 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: I cannot remember the oath exactly. Can you tell me which one you mean? It's the "shield that guards the realms of men" part. You can't send someone who recently endangered the realms of men on a mission to undermine the realms of men (or rather, a singular realm of men) and say that you are defending the realms of men. I'm not saying that what Jon did was wrong nor am I saying that the Night's Watch MUST be neutral and apolitical. What I'm saying that Jon Snow broke an oath in his attempt to do the right thing. And the subterfuge of it all dishonors both himself and the office of the Lord Commander in addition to endangering the entire Night's Watch. Surely, Jon should've came up with a contingency plan just in case Mance Rayder was caught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: It's the "shield that guards the realms of men" part. You can't send someone who recently endangered the realms of men on a mission to undermine the realms of men (or rather, a singular realm of men) and say that you are defending the realms of men. As Jeor Mormont said Quote We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men … and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. The Free Folk are men and when Night's Watch was created there were way more than just one Realm so it doesn't mean just Westeros that is governed by the Iron Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said: As Jeor Mormont said The Free Folk are men and when Night's Watch was created there were way more than just one Realm so it doesn't mean just Westeros. But undermining the reign of the current Lord of Winterfell by sending a man who tried to destroy the Wall and invade the realm of the Seven Kingdoms to take the wife of said Lord of Winterfell... ...you are no longer being the shield that guards the realms of men. What are you guarding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: As Jeor Mormont said The Free Folk are men and when Night's Watch was created there were way more than just one Realm so it doesn't mean just Westeros. I'm on team Jon on most things, but let's be real, Mance was a deserter and the penalty for desertion is death. It's not in the oath, but it is the law. I'm not saying Jon didn't do the right thing, but trying to save his little sister, from a monster who would do lord knows what to her, but he did technically break the law by doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: But undermining the reign of the current Lord of Winterfell by sending a man who tried to destroy the Wall and invade the realm of the Seven Kingdoms to take the wife of said Lord of Winterfell... ...you are no longer being the shield that guards the realms of men. What are you guarding? The situation is a little more complex, when the Lord of Winterfell is a crazy person, who enjoys skinning people just for shits and giggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Bowen is a capable man but Jon really created too much mess. The watch will be disorganized when the Others arrive. Jon should have left Arya and Ramsay alone and focused instead on his job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: But undermining the reign of the current Lord of Winterfell by sending a man who tried to destroy the Wall and invade the realm of the Seven Kingdoms to take the wife of said Lord of Winterfell... ...you are no longer being the shield that guards the realms of men. What are you guarding? It undermines nothing, Mance was sent to save Arya not to kill Ramsey and even if she was happy there all she had to do was to deny being saved. 5 minutes ago, sifth said: I'm on team Jon on most things, but let's be real, Mance was a deserter and the penalty for desertion is death. It's not in the oath, but it is the law. I'm not saying Jon didn't do the right thing, but trying to save his little sister, from a monster who would do lord knows what to her, but he did technically break the law by doing so. Actually this one is right. I am just pointing that there is nothing in the oaths about sending Mance to save Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Just now, sifth said: acThe situation is a little more complex, when the Lord of Winterfell is a crazy person, who enjoys skinning people just for shits and giggles. Yeah, I know it is a lot more complex. You can't protect the realms of men and allow someone like Ramsay Bolton to run amok. But the Watch's job is to shield the realms of men, not adjudicate the realms of men. Sending a deserter and (according to the law of the Seven Kingdoms) a terrorist to antagonize the Lord of Winterfell and abduct/rescue (depends on your point of view) his legal wife is not shielding the realms of men. It's almost the exact opposite. The whole "shield that guards the realms of men" part and how complex it can get is probably why the Night's Watch is forced to remain neutral. That's why I'm a big supporter of the Brotherhood without Banners. The Seven Kingdoms is in dire need of a judicial system independent of local lords and a private army of impartial law enforcers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Actually, if we're being honest, Mance was Stannis's prisoner, not Jon's. So Jon technically doesn't have proper authority to kill Mance, for desertion or otherwise. Which begs the question: is Stannis aware that Mance was not executed? If so, then he is just as complicit in allowing Mance to sneak inside Winterfell as Jon is, since he and Melisandre work so closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Nathan Stark said: Actually, if we're being honest, Mance was Stannis's prisoner, not Jon's. So Jon technically doesn't have proper authority to kill Mance, for desertion or otherwise. Which begs the question: is Stannis aware that Mance was not executed? If so, then he is just as complicit in allowing Mance to sneak inside Winterfell as Jon is, since he and Melisandre work so closely. Mance is a sworn brother of the Watch. Jon is his commanding officer. Desertion did not erase his vows. Jon ordered him to find Arya and he obeyed. Jon had a duty to execute Mance for his crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Blackhaven Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said: That's why I'm a big supporter of the Brotherhood without Banners. The Seven Kingdoms is in dire need of a judicial system independent of local lords and a private army of impartial law enforcers. Yeah, roving bands of vigilantes are always the answer. You can probably guess I really like Beric and the Brotherhood, but armed men committing extrajudicial killings and meting out their version of justice is not exactly a recipe for a calm and tranquil kingdom. The Brotherhood are not impartial in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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