Can you help Bowen Marsh clean up Jon's mess?

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Lord of Blackhaven said:

Yeah, roving bands of vigilantes are always the answer.

You can probably guess I really like Beric and the Brotherhood, but armed men committing extrajudicial killings and meting out their version of justice is not exactly a recipe for a calm and tranquil kingdom.

The Brotherhood are not impartial in any way.

First of all, the Brotherhood are only vigilantes because the Lannister regime says so. If Robert were still alive, if Tywin was arrested, if Eddard had seized the regency or if Stannis had taken the throne, the Brotherhood would dissipate. You cannot have a calm and tranquil kingdom when you have people like Tywin, Tyrion, Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, and Joffrey at the top of said kingdom calling the shots.

Second of all, you're right. But what I mean is that imagine if the Brotherhood was a series of small armies that is given authority to enforce the law, do justice and check the power of the nobility. It'd be a good system.

[sifth]

The problem we have here, is the Lannisters rewarded monsters like the Baltons and gave them a lordship. These are people who themselves don't follow the law and in fact have a reputation of breaking it, for either their own amusement or to gain power. When you have people like that in charge of your laws, it sets a really bad example and encourages other people to do the same.

[Lord of Blackhaven]

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

First of all, the Brotherhood are only vigilantes because the Lannister regime says so. If Robert were still alive, if Tywin was arrested, if Eddard had seized the regency or if Stannis had taken the throne, the Brotherhood would dissipate. You cannot have a calm and tranquil kingdom when you have people like Tywin, Tyrion, Cersei, Varys, Littlefinger, and Joffrey at the top of said kingdom calling the shots.

Second of all, you're right. But what I mean is that imagine if the Brotherhood was a series of small armies that is given authority to enforce the law, do justice and check the power of the nobility. It'd be a good system.

Absolutely. Its all perspective. An outlaw to one person is a law-abiding enforcer of the law to another. One person's hero is another person's villain and so forth.

I'm glad you mentioned Tyrion in your list of villains. For my money he's one of the worst and most despicable people in all of Westeros. He's an agent of chaos with a chip on his shoulder because he was born a dwarf. I can never understand why people find him at all sympathetic or likeable. He's heinous.

[saltedmalted]

7 hours ago, Lord of Blackhaven said:

An outlaw to one person is a law-abiding enforcer of the law to another. One person's hero is another person's villain and so forth.

Your concern about vigilantism is misplaced in ASoIaF. Westeros doesn't have a functional system of law and order.

 

[Orion2]

ah yes Bowen Marsh is my favorite character 

 

hes soo~~~intelligent~~~

 

I wish I could have both the moral courage and foresight of that man

[CamiloRP]

16 hours ago, Lord of Blackhaven said:

Yeah, roving bands of vigilantes are always the answer.

You can probably guess I really like Beric and the Brotherhood, but armed men committing extrajudicial killings and meting out their version of justice is not exactly a recipe for a calm and tranquil kingdom.

The Brotherhood are not impartial in any way.

As, I'm hoping, one of the few people here to actually know guerrilla fighters, even having them amongst my family and friends. When the government is fraudulent, violent and unjust, the justice must come from the people. They must fight the government's injustice.

[James West]

On 2/28/2021 at 2:28 PM, saltedmalted said:

No, the raven should.

Corny bird

On 2/28/2021 at 2:28 PM, saltedmalted said:

Does the pomegrenate know that?

If he is a man of faith, yes.  I don't have my books with me atm.  Doesn't the saying goes something like the wall will remain strong as long as the brothers of the watch remain true to their vows.  

[James West]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:13 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Patrek was not the only one looking for a reward.  The defeat and death of Stannis will force them to make peace with Roose because they don't want to die in the north.  

They won't die for Jon, Shireen, and Mel.  These guys will look for a way to the coast and sail back home.  Some will bend their knees to Roose.  

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, James West said:

Some will bend their knees to Roose.  

That'd be a very bad idea.

On 3/5/2021 at 4:24 PM, Lord of Blackhaven said:

I'm glad you mentioned Tyrion in your list of villains. For my money he's one of the worst and most despicable people in all of Westeros. He's an agent of chaos with a chip on his shoulder because he was born a dwarf. I can never understand why people find him at all sympathetic or likeable. He's heinous.

Yep.

Tyrion is sympathetic to a degree because he born with a disability and mistreated for that. He's also likeable because he is clever and snarky and his chapters are usually the most political/informative/insightful however. In the first three books, Tyrion and Ned are the only POV characters who are positioned in King's Landing with almost all the information. Ned dies in the first book whereas Tyrion is "in the know" for the first three books. I also think that people appreciated the contrast being Ned Stark the Hand in A Game of Thrones and Tyrion Lannister the Hand in A Clash of Kings and Tyrion benefits from that because he did a better job. If you didn't notice it already, there was a massive shift in regards to people's feelings towards Tyrion when Dance came out and Tyrion became a "fringe" POV.

A lot of readers don't really like Tyrion that much, they just like his chapters.

I think another reason why a lot of people like him is because a lot of fantasy readers are "nerds," "nice guys" or "freaks" (that's changing though) who can relate to either the marginalization Tyrion experiences, the curiosity/intelligence Tyrion possesses, the anger and entitlement Tyrion feels or any combation of the above.

But yeah: Tyrion is clearly a villain who is getting worse and worse. Not does he actively work against the interests of the heroes, but he advances the causes of the villains in the story. Soon, he will be using another hero (Dany) as a smokescreen to antagonize both the heroes and the villains.

I forgot to mention the likes of Lysa, Roose, Pycelle and Ramsay in my list btw

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

That'd be a very bad idea.

Yep.

Tyrion is sympathetic to a degree because he born with a disability and mistreated for that. He's also likeable because he is clever and snarky and his chapters are usually the most political/informative/insightful however. In the first three books, Tyrion and Ned are the only POV characters who are positioned in King's Landing with almost all the information. Ned dies in the first book whereas Tyrion is "in the know" for the first three books. I also think that people appreciated the contrast being Ned Stark the Hand in A Game of Thrones and Tyrion Lannister the Hand in A Clash of Kings and Tyrion benefits from that because he did a better job. If you didn't notice it already, there was a massive shift in regards to people's feelings towards Tyrion when Dance came out and Tyrion became a "fringe" POV.

A lot of readers don't really like Tyrion that much, they just like his chapters.

I think another reason why a lot of people like him is because a lot of fantasy readers are "nerds," "nice guys" or "freaks" (that's changing though) who can relate to either the marginalization Tyrion experiences, the curiosity/intelligence Tyrion possesses, the anger and entitlement Tyrion feels or any combation of the above.

But yeah: Tyrion is clearly a villain who is getting worse and worse. Not does he actively work against the interests of the heroes, but he advances the causes of the villains in the story. Soon, he will be using another hero (Dany) as a smokescreen to antagonize both the heroes and the villains.

I forgot to mention the likes of Lysa, Roose, Pycelle and Ramsay in my list btw

I view Tyrion very much as Shakespeare’s Richard III or Iago in this tale.  And right from the start, Martin described him as “the villain”.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Heck no. Bowen should jump off the Wall, because he is majorly screwed. Mel will be ticked off, the new and younger men with a few exceptions will be ticked off, Jon's friends that are still there will be ticked off. God knows what Selyse and the queen's men will make of it. 

Tyrion is nowhere near the level of Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Ramsay, maybe Roose whose definitely has done bad stuff, Mero, Hugh Hammer, Ulf the Sot, etc.  

 

[Jaenara Belarys]

Tyrion is nowhere near the level of Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Ramsay, maybe Roose whose definitely has done bad stuff, Mero, Hugh Hammer, Ulf the Sot, etc.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:57 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Heck no. Bowen should jump off the Wall, because he is majorly screwed. Mel will be ticked off, the new and younger men with a few exceptions will be ticked off, Jon's friends that are still there will be ticked off. God knows what Selyse and the queen's men will make of it. 

Tyrion is nowhere near the level of Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Ramsay, maybe Roose whose definitely has done bad stuff, Mero, Hugh Hammer, Ulf the Sot, etc.  

 

•  

Bowen  will not commit suicide.  He will do his duty.  He has a tough job to do to save the watch from Jon's bad decisions.  Mel might be ticked but the younger men of the watch will appreciate what Bowen had to do.  The queen's men will surrender to Roose.  Maybe they will offer Selyse, Shireen, Mel,and Val as a token of peace.

[Jaenara Belarys]

In my opinion, I think that the younger men like Jon more than most of the old guard of the NW.

[TheLastWolf]

I've taken a long break from the forum, going to complete a year here, wait, COMPLETED!... anyway, I return to find the only threads that I participated earlier still active now are anti Stark ones. Arya evil bitch and Jonsay Bolton. 

What a surprise! 

Figures 

[Hippocras]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:28 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bowen  will not commit suicide.  He will do his duty.  He has a tough job to do to save the watch from Jon's bad decisions.  Mel might be ticked but the younger men of the watch will appreciate what Bowen had to do.  The queen's men will surrender to Roose.  Maybe they will offer Selyse, Shireen, Mel,and Val as a token of peace.

Right, sure.

More like a handful of fellow myopics will appreciate what he did, but those who might appreciate it were already part of it.  The rest, who have seen what is coming, will declare him to be an idiot and leave him for the White Walkers by ejecting him North of the Wall. When he finally meets them he will realize what a complete mess he has made of everything and that he basically screwed all of humanity. He will not of course know that Jon has come back from the dead and the world might be saved after all.

Why are people do fixated on this notion that Bowen Marsh was acting out of principle? Does everyone forget that there were several men sent to the Wall with Janos Slynt, all of whom were paid off by Littlefinger to arrest Ned. Which means they are Littlefinger's men. Littlefinger wants any possible rival to Sansa's claim on the North dead, ie. Jon. This even BEFORE Tywin was manipulating Watch policy by refusing them the supplies and men needed unless they made themselves subservient to King's Landing, followed by Cersei demanding people kill those seen as her enemies, such as Davos, to prove their loyalty to the crown. We KNOW she was trying to send someone to kill Jon, and had enough of a window after the Kettleblack plan failed to think of someone else. 

Bowen Marsh is not a hero, he is a coward, simply doing what he did out of fear of the Iron Throne. That's it, that's all.

[James West]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:42 PM, BlackLightning said:

That'd be a very bad idea.

Resisting Roose when the man they followed is already dead is a bad idea.  Stannis is dead.  They have no reason to continue fighting a war they cannot win. 

[Buried Treasure]

The Boltons are several weeks travel from the Wall in Summer conditions.

They aren't an immediate consideration for what happens next at the Wall. The more immediate concern is that Marsh is pre-occupied with food stores and anti-wildling. He's going to want to cut them off, and is likely to loose control before anyone can arrive from Winterfell 

 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:58 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

In my opinion, I think that the younger men like Jon more than most of the old guard of the NW.

This is true.  But they would not approve of what he did.  Those men may be young but even they will agree that Jon was wrong to interfere with Ramsay's business with his sister. 

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This is true.  But they would not approve of what he did.  Those men may be young but even they will agree that Jon was wrong to interfere with Ramsay's business with his sister. 

Ramsay was also trying to interfere with the Watch, as were Tywin and Cersei. Watch independence was compromised by the South refusing their repeated requests for help. If KL HAD put the force of the Throne behind defense of the Wall, Stannis would not have come North, the Wall would be defended etc. 

As for the support of young versus old - not true. That is not the split. The split is between stewards and rangers. Many stewards support Marsh because they have never seen the WW threat and don't understand it or even fully believe it. But to the rangers and those who survived the Fist the threat of running out of food is basically a problem to be dealt with later while making sure the wight army is not overwhelmingly big and the Wall is properly defended are of existential concern. So no, not young versus old, rather it is those who understand (mostly rangers) versus those who do not (mostly stewards). 

The interpretation that Bowen Marsh acted on principle is blinkered IMO. Believing this requires willfully ignoring that there is clear evidence that Cersei has been trying to have Jon assassinated, and that others were already trying even before that through their catspaws Janos Slynt and his 6 companions. Jon's assassination was orchestrated from the South, and it is those acting subservient to King's Landing who most clearly broke their vows.