Can you help Bowen Marsh clean up Jon's mess?

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/1/2021 at 12:08 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This is true.  But they would not approve of what he did.  Those men may be young but even they will agree that Jon was wrong to interfere with Ramsay's business with his sister. 

Any decent man would object to that ****ing creep Ramsay's business with his sister if they know half of what that animal does.

[BlackLightning]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:59 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Tyrion is nowhere near the level of Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Ramsay, maybe Roose whose definitely has done bad stuff, Mero, Hugh Hammer, Ulf the Sot, etc.  

Oh that's right.

Because Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin have never raped anyone.

I should've put Tyrion in the same category as Mero, Hugh Hammer, Roose and Ramsay because they have raped people.

On 3/29/2021 at 11:49 PM, James West said:

Resisting Roose when the man they followed is already dead is a bad idea.  Stannis is dead.  They have no reason to continue fighting a war they cannot win. 

The last people who submitted to House Bolton were the Ironborn.

Shortly after their surrender, they were flayed and crucified with their corpses displayed along the Kingsroad.

But sure...let's surrender to Roose Bolton

23 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Any decent man would object to that ****ing creep Ramsay's business with his sister if they know half of what that thing does.

Although I am inclined to agree with @Aline de Gavrillac, you make an excellent point.

It's a untenable situation that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Because if a man will treat his legally-wedded trueborn wife in such a disgusting way, how will he treat strangers? How will he treat those who are truly inferior to him?

And we are still operating under the presumption that this is a trueborn Stark of Winterfell! House Poole is not exactly prestigious or highborn but it's a very good match for a legitimized bastard. But again...people think that this is a Stark. To treat a highborn female heir to an ancient, storied House like this in medieval times is unconscionably horrific.

Look at Dorne? Elia has been dead for nearly 20 years and they are still outraged by that. Poor "Arya Stark" was being treated and had been treated much worst than Elia. At least Elia found some sort of release in death.

 

But yeah. Having someone like Ramsay Bolton as the Warden of the North is the Night King situation all over again.

Except this time around, the Watch and the other northern lords won't be able to rely on the strength of Winterfell or the Free Folk

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

Although I am inclined to agree with @Aline de Gavrillac, you make an excellent point.

 

Thanks.

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Because Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin have never raped anyone.

 

I'm pretty sure Joffrey, as much of a turd as he was, didn't do that. Cersei, IDK does Taena count? Tywin has probably done that.

 

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I'm pretty sure Joffrey, as much of a turd as he was, didn't do that. Cersei, IDK does Taena count? Tywin has probably done that.

The thing with Taena is kinda sketchy. She was willing but...could she refuse?

I don't know: that's a really gray area. Worst come to worst, I consider what Cersei did to be sexual assault not rape.

Tywin? Meh, I've never gotten an idea that that's something he would do. We have no confirmation about Mero being a rapist but it's not a stretch to come to the conclusion that he did rape people.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Mero is all but confirmed. 

[Pontius Pilate]

On 4/1/2021 at 1:31 PM, BlackLightning said:

Oh that's right.

Because Joffrey, Cersei and Tywin have never raped anyone.

I should've put Tyrion in the same category as Mero, Hugh Hammer, Roose and Ramsay because they have raped people.

The last people who submitted to House Bolton were the Ironborn.

Shortly after their surrender, they were flayed and crucified with their corpses displayed along the Kingsroad.

But sure...let's surrender to Roose Bolton

Although I am inclined to agree with @Aline de Gavrillac, you make an excellent point.

It's a untenable situation that needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. Because if a man will treat his legally-wedded trueborn wife in such a disgusting way, how will he treat strangers? How will he treat those who are truly inferior to him?

And we are still operating under the presumption that this is a trueborn Stark of Winterfell! House Poole is not exactly prestigious or highborn but it's a very good match for a legitimized bastard. But again...people think that this is a Stark. To treat a highborn female heir to an ancient, storied House like this in medieval times is unconscionably horrific.

Look at Dorne? Elia has been dead for nearly 20 years and they are still outraged by that. Poor "Arya Stark" was being treated and had been treated much worst than Elia. At least Elia found some sort of release in death.

 

But yeah. Having someone like Ramsay Bolton as the Warden of the North is the Night King situation all over again.

Except this time around, the Watch and the other northern lords won't be able to rely on the strength of Winterfell or the Free Folk

Jon is the Night King this time around.  Roose maybe willing to take him down, given all of the problems he had caused.  He really attacked House Bolton by sending Mance Rayder. 

[TheLastWolf]

15 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Jon is the Night King this time around.  Roose maybe willing to take him down, given all of the problems he had caused.  He really attacked House Bolton by sending Mance Rayder. 

Oh Boy! How I miss @Alyn Oakenfist...

 

 

 

(Sigh) 

[SeanF]

On 4/1/2021 at 6:00 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Any decent man would object to that ****ing creep Ramsay's business with his sister if they know half of what that thing does.

As I said upthread, it's like standing by while Aerys abused Rhaella and burned people in wildfire and considering yourself the most moral of men.

Ramsay Bolton is known throughout the North as an unhinged monster.  Taking him down is a moral imperative.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/3/2021 at 5:33 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Oh Boy! How I miss @Alyn Oakenfist...

 

What on earth does this mean??

On 4/5/2021 at 1:45 AM, SeanF said:

Ramsay Bolton is known throughout the North as an unhinged monster.  Taking him down is a moral imperative.

Yep. I hope he gets fed to his dogs...show style.

 

[TheLastWolf]

10 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What on earth does this mean??

You must be new. Or very old. In the forum. @Alyn Oakenfist was a fellow crusader against irrational hatred on the forum who is indefinitely unavailable 

[Rondo]

On 4/2/2021 at 5:12 PM, Pontius Pilate said:

Jon is the Night King this time around.  Roose maybe willing to take him down, given all of the problems he had caused.  He really attacked House Bolton by sending Mance Rayder. 

And Mance Rayder violated guest rights.  Jon Snow was his commanding officer and thus also guilty of violating guest rights because he sent Mance Rayder on that mission.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 3/29/2021 at 1:06 PM, Hippocras said:

Right, sure.

More like a handful of fellow myopics will appreciate what he did, but those who might appreciate it were already part of it.  The rest, who have seen what is coming, will declare him to be an idiot and leave him for the White Walkers by ejecting him North of the Wall. When he finally meets them he will realize what a complete mess he has made of everything and that he basically screwed all of humanity. He will not of course know that Jon has come back from the dead and the world might be saved after all.

Why are people do fixated on this notion that Bowen Marsh was acting out of principle? Does everyone forget that there were several men sent to the Wall with Janos Slynt, all of whom were paid off by Littlefinger to arrest Ned. Which means they are Littlefinger's men. Littlefinger wants any possible rival to Sansa's claim on the North dead, ie. Jon. This even BEFORE Tywin was manipulating Watch policy by refusing them the supplies and men needed unless they made themselves subservient to King's Landing, followed by Cersei demanding people kill those seen as her enemies, such as Davos, to prove their loyalty to the crown. We KNOW she was trying to send someone to kill Jon, and had enough of a window after the Kettleblack plan failed to think of someone else. 

Bowen Marsh is not a hero, he is a coward, simply doing what he did out of fear of the Iron Throne. That's it, that's all.

Jon was no longer serving the Watch.  He was no longer serving the interest of the realm.  He was serving the interest of saving his sister no matter what.  He deserved to get removed from power.  Bowen Marsh had no other choice because he was a man of duty and principle.  Jon's irrationality over rescuing his sister left the Night's Watch with a big problem.  They had to remove Jon.  I don't think a single man of the watch would disapprove of Bowen's decision to knife Jon.  

[Hippocras]

On 4/24/2021 at 2:43 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon was no longer serving the Watch.  He was no longer serving the interest of the realm.

Highly debatable, but in any case the Watch vows are not about serving the Realm as in the Iron Throne, but about serving the Realm*S* (please note the emphasis on plural) of MEN. As in all of humanity. Give the vows a reread if you do not believe me, and then be honest with yourself about whether you think letting Ramsay do what he does to whoever he pleases is serving the Realms of Men. I think it takes a great deal of psychological gymnastics on your part to see it that way.

But, even if we do accept that Jon was about to break his vows, that doesn't make Bowen Marsh and cronies heroes. They were ALSO breaking their vows, in fact even more so, by corrupting the meaning of those vows to serve whoever holds the Iron Throne INSTEAD of serving the defense of humanity. They assassinated Jon, not because he broke his vows, but because that is what Tywin, Cersei, and the Boltons wanted, and FU humanity.

So I don't see the point of debating the line Jon was walking there regarding his vows, when you are clearly blind to the fact that Bowen Marsh was breaking his.

[Rondo]

The author created a situation where Jon had to make a choice.  A choice to stick his long chin into Ramsay's business would clearly compromise if not outright stop the Night's Watch from doing its job of stopping the Others from passing through the wall's defenses.  It is clearly better for the defense if Jon had kept to his own business.  It was not a free choice where he could do both.  He had to choose between protecting the people or protecting his sister.  One life versus the lives of many.  The moral choice was to forget Arya and keep his mind on defending the wall.  

[Darth Sidious]

On 4/24/2021 at 8:43 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon was no longer serving the Watch.  He was no longer serving the interest of the realm.  He was serving the interest of saving his sister no matter what.  He deserved to get removed from power.  Bowen Marsh had no other choice because he was a man of duty and principle.  Jon's irrationality over rescuing his sister left the Night's Watch with a big problem.  They had to remove Jon.  I don't think a single man of the watch would disapprove of Bowen's decision to knife Jon.  

Edd might disapprove of the assassination at first. But he will see the wisdom in it and participate.

[Roswell]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

What Bowen already did.  Kill Jon.  Jon can no longer cause further harm to the watch and the kingdom.  But the mess he left behind will be hard to sort out. 

I am expecting Jon to come back as a wight and do further harm but Bowen had no way of knowing that.  A pale wight Jon haunting Castle Black and killing the men is not an unlikely scenario. 

[TheLastWolf]

59 minutes ago, Roswell said:

What Bowen already did.  Kill Jon.  Jon can no longer cause further harm to the watch and the kingdom.  But the mess he left behind will be hard to sort out. 

I am expecting Jon to come back as a wight and do further harm but Bowen had no way of knowing that.  A pale wight Jon haunting Castle Black and killing the men is not an unlikely scenario. 

Isn't this bumping up dumpsterfire cluster fuck threads, honorable m(g)ods? 

[The Commentator]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:26 AM, Roswell said:

What Bowen already did.  Kill Jon.  Jon can no longer cause further harm to the watch and the kingdom.  But the mess he left behind will be hard to sort out. 

I am expecting Jon to come back as a wight and do further harm but Bowen had no way of knowing that.  A pale wight Jon haunting Castle Black and killing the men is not an unlikely scenario. 

Jon will have two things on his mind when he comes back. Find Arya and murder poor Bowen.  Imagine a ghost-white wight stalking the crows. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon will have two things on his mind when he comes back. Find Arya and murder poor Bowen.  Imagine a ghost-white wight stalking the crows. 

"You know nothing, Jon Snow." Winterfell Arya is not Arya and the real Arya is no one. 

[Rondo]

On 11/18/2020 at 7:38 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Put yourself in BM's shoes.  Jon created immeasurable damage at the wall.  How would you clean up Jon's mess? 

Stabbing Jon was right.  He can't be allowed to turn his feud with Ramsay into another war.  The last thing the kingdom needs right now is more war.  Jon was going to waste a lot of lives and a lot of supplies in a foolish war with Ramsay.