Ned and Barbrey

[CamiloRP]

In ADWD's chapter "The Turncloak" Barbrey Dustin says the following:

Quote

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me."

 

And the wiki says:

Quote

Six months after their wedding, Lord Willam followed his liege Lord Eddard Stark in Robert's Rebellion against King Aerys II Targaryen.^[17][18] Lord Dustin was one of the six companions that fought alongside Lord Eddard at the tower of joy against the remaining members of the Mad King's Kingsguard, where he was slain.^[17] His bones were buried beneath the red mountains of Dorne. While Lord Eddard returned Willam's stead, he did not return his bones. Taking it as a slight, Lady Dustin held a grudge on the Starks and grew bitter with her overlords.^[19]

 

Based on this it seems that Barbrey was married to Willam before Brandon's death aand therefore before Ned's wedding with Cat, so why wasn't Barbrey accepted as a wife for Ned?

[Darth Sidious]

Be careful with the time line.  Barbrey was not going to marry the Stark boys.  It won't serve Richard's plan to marry a son to a family who already was in his pocket.  

[Lord Lannister]

Yeah, Rickard Stark was keen on marrying his children off to rich families outside the north. Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn Tully and Lyanna was to Robert Baratheon. It only stands to reason that he would've found Ned and Benjen southern brides as well.

As a random aside, I know the timeline wouldn't be right post rebellion, but that would almost make sense as a reason for Benjen to join the Watch if he didn't want a southern marriage.

[CamiloRP]

7 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Be careful with the time line.  Barbrey was not going to marry the Stark boys.  It won't serve Richard's plan to marry a son to a family who already was in his pocket.  

 

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Yeah, Rickard Stark was keen on marrying his children off to rich families outside the north. Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn Tully and Lyanna was to Robert Baratheon. It only stands to reason that he would've found Ned and Benjen southern brides as well.

As a random aside, I know the timeline wouldn't be right post rebellion, but that would almost make sense as a reason for Benjen to join the Watch if he didn't want a southern marriage.

 

That's the point, was there an already planned marriage for Ned? who was her?

[Lord Lannister]

Just now, CamiloRP said:

 

 

That's the point, was there an already planned marriage for Ned? who was her?

Rickard probably had some ideas in his head, but nothing formally. It would make sense to keep Ned's options open in case anything happened to Brandon. Which it did. That way the marriage alliance with the Tullys is preserved. Had Brandon married Catelyn, then would be the time to seek a formal engagement for Ned.

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, Lord Lannister said:

Rickard probably had some ideas in his head, but nothing formally. It would make sense to keep Ned's options open in case anything happened to Brandon. Which it did. That way the marriage alliance with the Tullys is preserved. Had Brandon married Catelyn, then would be the time to seek a formal engagement for Ned.

Makes sense, guess this should have gone in the small questions thread, huh?

[Leonardo]

Ned would have been a great match for any of the lesser-but-nearly-as-important houses like say, House Dayne. I don't think Rickard could have hoped for yet another direct lord paramount alliance.

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

That's the point, was there an already planned marriage for Ned? who was her?

She, not her 

And its probably a Mormont 

[CamiloRP]

7 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Ned would have been a great match for any of the lesser-but-nearly-as-important houses like say, House Dayne. I don't think Rickard could have hoped for yet another direct lord paramount alliance.

Yes, that too

 

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

She, not her 

:/

 

Quote

And its probably a Mormont 

How come?

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, that too

 

:/

 

How come?

Take all the Northern houses. Assuming Rickard didn't include southron ambitions in Ned's marriage, the Mormonts are the only house with enough badass females to be worthy of a great house like Stark. Or at least Rickard's ego. 

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Take all the Northern houses. Assuming Rickard didn't include southron ambitions in Ned's marriage, the Mormonts are the only house with enough badass females to be worthy of a great house like Stark. Or at least Rickard's ego. 

I don't think that's Rickard's thinking, House Mormont is a relatively poor minor house, he aimed for Tullys and Bratheons, he refused a Rysewell, he has nothing to gain for a Mormont marriage.

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

In ADWD's chapter "The Turncloak" Barbrey Dustin says the following:

 

And the wiki says:

 

Based on this it seems that Barbrey was married to Willam before Brandon's death aand therefore before Ned's wedding with Cat, so why wasn't Barbrey accepted as a wife for Ned?

Actually, this is a pretty good catch. If Will and Barb were married six months before Will marched off to war, then this had to have been before Brandon died and Ned was promised to Cat. The war itself lasted "nearly a year" and we need a good nine months between the wedding at Riverrun, where Robb was conceived, and the sack of KL about when Jon was born (Robb is supposedly a few weeks older than Jon). So Brandon would have died approximately three months after Barb and Will got married, and in all likelihood, Ned would not have been betrothed until he linked up with Hoster before the Battle of the Bells. So why would Lord Rodrick hand her off to a Dustin when there is still a Stark in the offing?

My personal answer is that this whole story from Barbrey is BS. She does not hate the Starks, is not looking for Ned's bones, harbors no grudge. This was just the cover story she used to get Theon to bring her to the crypts. There is a secret passage into Winterfell that runs through the crypts, but it's useless because the door is covered with debris and there is virgin snow all around the lichyard. So this little trip was merely an excuse to open the door and leave a trail of disturbed snow that would hide the entrance of whomever came into the castle soon after.

It was right after this that the murders started.

[CamiloRP]

18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Actually, this is a pretty good catch. If Will and Barb were married six months before Will marched off to war, then this had to have been before Brandon died and Ned was promised to Cat. The war itself lasted "nearly a year" and we need a good nine months between the wedding at Riverrun, where Robb was conceived, and the sack of KL about when Jon was born (Robb is supposedly a few weeks older than Jon). So Brandon would have died approximately three months after Barb and Will got married, and in all likelihood, Ned would not have been betrothed until he linked up with Hoster before the Battle of the Bells. So why would Lord Rodrick hand her off to a Dustin when there is still a Stark in the offing?

Thanks! I was considering two options, either Rickard had a 'better' choice for Ned or he didn't like the Ryswells. But I think @Lord Lannister has it right, tho I do wonder if that's the case why didn't Lord Rickard answered Lord Ryswell with a 'Let's see' and wait till the Cat-Brandon wedding to shoot him down or accept his proposal.

 

Quote

My personal answer is that this whole story from Barbrey is BS. She does not hate the Starks, is not looking for Ned's bones, harbors no grudge. This was just the cover story she used to get Theon to bring her to the crypts. There is a secret passage into Winterfell that runs through the crypts, but it's useless because the door is covered with debris and there is virgin snow all around the lichyard. So this little trip was merely an excuse to open the door and leave a trail of disturbed snow that would hide the entrance of whomever came into the castle soon after.

It was right after this that the murders started.

To me Barbrey seems sincere in her hatred of Starks, and I think the crypts have only one access point, rather than two. Also, the Spearwives partially confessed to the murders.

[Curled Finger]

We never actually read that Ned was promised or betrothed to anyone and that may have been the case.   I believe the Starks have always given a son to the NW, so Benjen was never on the table for marriage, but with Brandon off to marry the lady of Riverrun and Lyanna scheduled to marry the Lord of Storms End Rickard would almost have to marry Ned to a local Northern woman.  The politics don't make any sense if not.   Starks only add to their wealth investing in a northern marriage.   I would think they would have to, particularly in light of all the southron marriages.   There was no one left to sacrifice to the politics of the south.    We know Lysa was shopped by the Lannisters for Jamie so why wasn't Ned introduced here, too?   

[RedDragon]

I think I agree with the sentiment that all of the stark siblings were intended to marry into southern houses outside of the north. 
 

it could also be possible that Barbrey’s father didn’t want her to marry a stark that wasn’t the heir so he turned his attention to more immediate matches. After all it was far from certain at the time that Brandon would go on to get himself killed 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Thanks! I was considering two options, either Rickard had a 'better' choice for Ned or he didn't like the Ryswells. But I think @Lord Lannister has it right, tho I do wonder if that's the case why didn't Lord Rickard answered Lord Ryswell with a 'Let's see' and wait till the Cat-Brandon wedding to shoot him down or accept his proposal.

 

To me Barbrey seems sincere in her hatred of Starks, and I think the crypts have only one access point, rather than two. Also, the Spearwives partially confessed to the murders.

Right on the above. The question isn't why Rickard didn't betroth Ned to someone else, but why Rhyswell chose to marry Barb to a Dustin while there is still a viable Stark in play.

Barbrey also has no love for the Freys, who form the basis for the Lannister-backed Bolton dominance of the north. So if she hates the Starks too, then whose side is she really on here? Plus, the hooded man got into the castle somehow.

Yes, the spearwives did the first murders. I wasn't suggesting they were done by whomever came in through the crypts, just that opening that access into the castle was necessary before they started the murder-phase of the plan. This leads to the other part of the Winterfell theory that I subscribe to that the first victim with its face chewed off was actually Roger Rhyswell, and the Roger we see later is someone else glamored with the rubies that Mel gave to Mance, and that this person, in the guise of Roger, is the hooded man. But as you can see, it takes a bit of 'splainin'.

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Right on the above. The question isn't why Rickard didn't betroth Ned to someone else, but why Rhyswell chose to marry Barb to a Dustin while there is still a viable Stark in play.

I took it to mean that Rickard shut him down, don't know why.

 

Quote

Barbrey also has no love for the Freys, who form the basis for the Lannister-backed Bolton dominance of the north. So if she hates the Starks too, then whose side is she really on here? Plus, the hooded man got into the castle somehow.

I think she's on her own side. The Dustins/Ryswells where likely kings before the Starks (which is pointed at by the crown in the banner, and the fact that the barrow is believed to be the tomb of an old king). She ants control of the Barrow, which is pointed by her not re marring in sixteen years. She might want to take the Ryswell/Dustin to their former glory.

 

Quote

Yes, the spearwives did the first murders. I wasn't suggesting they were done by whomever came in through the crypts, just that opening that access into the castle was necessary before they started the murder-phase of the plan. This leads to the other part of the Winterfell theory that I subscribe to that the first victim with its face chewed off was actually Roger Rhyswell, and the Roger we see later is someone else glamored with the rubies that Mel gave to Mance, and that this person, in the guise of Roger, is the hooded man. But as you can see, it takes a bit of 'splainin'.

I'd like to read that theory! Tho I think that the crypts have only one door, so they're of no use to get into Winterfell. I think she wanted to go to the crypts to check the veracity of Wex's story.

[Angel Eyes]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:03 AM, CamiloRP said:

I don't think that's Rickard's thinking, House Mormont is a relatively poor minor house, he aimed for Tullys and Bratheons, he refused a Rysewell, he has nothing to gain for a Mormont marriage.

Which makes Lord Hightower's decision to allow Jorah to marry Lynesse even more baffling. The Hightowers control a city while House Mormont only has a small island with 62 fighting men.

[Angel Eyes]

On the Barbrey question: why did Ned leave the bones of his companions in Dorne? How hard could it be to transport eight sets of bones? It's certainly done him no favors with her.

[The Young Maester]

18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the Barbrey question: why did Ned leave the bones of his companions in Dorne? How hard could it be to transport eight sets of bones? It's certainly done him no favors with her.

Plot convenience. A spiteful barbrey is needed for the story.