US Politics - The Liar in Winter

[DireWolfSpirit]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

Pompeo's moves in Israel is part of his religious-right apocalypse-obsessed beliefs that by manipulating events in Israel and the Middle East, he can bring about the end times.

As if I didn't have enough reasons to think this guy was a asshole. This is over the top assholery!!

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

As if I didn't have enough reasons to think this guy was a asshole. This is over the top assholery!!

At this point, I'm inclined to think these sorts are just opportunistic anarchists who have a preferred flavor for rationalizing it.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Student debt forgiveness needs to be paired with reform to make college/job training more affordable. Need to avoid the whole "we'll forgive the debt of the current lot, but for the rest of you in college now or in the future, you're just screwed."

Also talk about correcting predatory lending to college students who don't have the financial background to know what they're getting into and correcting that.

Except that can't get done. So you do what you can now when you have the power. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Well, I am no lawyer, but the Supreme Court has ruled (unanimously, this year) that states can bind presidential electors to back their states’ popular vote winner in the EC. I'm not sure if this is actually the case in Michigan or not, but the precedent from the SC ruling makes me think they would throw out an alternate set of electors.

Does the Michigan law bind electors “to the popular vote of the State of Michigan” or “to the properly certified vote of Michigan as accepted by the Michigan State Legislature”?  It matters because what the SCOTUS held was that States, under State law and State legal sanction, can bind the votes of electors to the State’s popular vote outcome.  It is simply saying that is within the State’s power to do that.

Art. II and Amendment XII say the State Legislature may appoint electors there is no US Constitutional provision directly related to how State Legislatures appoint electors.  It simply delgates the power to do so to State Legislatures.

Therefore, I am troubled by current developments in Michigan.

@Fez

Can you answer my questions about the Michigan Republican caucus?

[Rippounet]

6 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Well, I am no lawyer, but the Supreme Court has ruled (unanimously, this year) that states can bind presidential electors to back their states’ popular vote winner in the EC. I'm not sure if this is actually the case in Michigan or not, but the precedent from the SC ruling makes me think they would throw out an alternate set of electors.

I'm not sure I like Michigan's law on the subject:

Quote

 

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2lruagtldvt1hxbfh5tjnua0))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-168-47

The electors of president and vice-president shall convene in the senate chamber at the capitol of the state at 2 p.m., eastern standard time, on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December following their election. At any time before receipt of the certificate of the governor or within 48 hours thereafter, an elector may resign by submitting his written and verified resignation to the governor. Failure to so resign signifies consent to serve and to cast his vote for the candidates for president and vice-president appearing on the Michigan ballot of the political party which nominated him. Refusal or failure to vote for the candidates for president and vice-president appearing on the Michigan ballot of the political party which nominated the elector constitutes a resignation from the office of elector, his vote shall not be recorded and the remaining electors shall forthwith fill the vacancy.

 

I'm exhausted, but I don't see any reference to the popular vote here.

[Mindwalker]

I didn't think it was even possible, but I think Giuliani is even moe insane and unhinged than 45.

 

[Lollygag]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Except that can't get done. So you do what you can now when you have the power. 

I know but you have to tie the two messages together to avoid the backlash and also build support for the later. Phase 1, phase 2,...

Maybe paint those opposed as rich elitists who don't want average people to drink at their water fountain. Lots of opportunities here.

[Kalbear]

Michigan's system was one of the things I was talking about a few weeks ago - that states have some real stupid laws around these things, and while it's unlikely to result in a win, it can result in some really stupid delays and possible chaos and violence. Telling all of Detroit that their votes are invalid is not a great way to maintain order.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

That is hardly a surprise. What's interesting there is Schumer was pushing this. He was also behind the unemployment on steroids. It sounds like he is not afraid of being branded a radical socialist.

It's definitely interesting. I've never known much about Schumer, but I definitely appreciate his willingness to come out strong on this kind of issue. 

50 minutes ago, Altherion said:

It's not clear that he has this authority to unilaterally cancel student debt, but even if the courts let him do such a thing, it's almost guaranteed to do significant damage to the Democrats. Not only is it a handout to people who are already voting for Democrats without it, but it is a handout to people who are, for the most part, not actually that poor. Also, the cancelled debt would be government debt so no rich allies of the Democrats get a cut. There's nothing in that plan for Biden or most Democrats.

The way Biden and the House want to do it is much more in line with how legislation works. Most importantly, all of the money will ultimately go to private lenders which will make them more likely to support the Democrats. As an added bonus, much less money is required and the spending will be restricted to people who actually need it (hence that "economically distressed" requirement). Biden can claim that he helped people with student loans in either case, but this way, the Democrats get much more out of this with much less spending and less backlash.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but I just don't get this line of thought: because other people paid off student loans, it's not fair to them. Sure, it sucks that they paid off an unfair debt, but that shouldn't stop us from dealing with the problem. It's not fair that my parents went to college for a fraction of the cost and were able to come out of school with little debt. What about that? They had it better, so it's not fair we have it worse.

This is not a handout. This country absolutely gives a ton of unfair handouts to people--that'd be the millionaire and billionaire class. Regular Americans being given relief from massive debt is not a handout. Discharging these loans through bankruptcy is incredibly difficult. Hell, bankruptcy for the average American is incredibly difficult because you need to hire a lawyer. Rich people get so many benefits that the rest of us don't. This notion that "oh, it's not fair" or "oh, it'd hurt the Democrats" is nonsense. UNLESS, the Democrats actually are trying to continue to move to the right. Then, yeah, maybe they won't get those mythical centrist Republicans who turned out 93 percent for Trump.

Also, the notion that this would reward people not actually poor is a myth. So many people graduate college into low paying jobs--teachers, for example. I suppose it could be targeted, but why? Why does it matter? To say other people need it more is fine--but I haven't seen any movement on helping poor people either. This is a solution that would have instant, positive ramifications for the U.S. economy. Except it'd be one of those things where when we hear, "Hey, the economy's great," people who aren't rich would be able to say, "Yeah, it actually is."

 

[Rippounet]

Trump seems to be going all in on Michigan:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1329233502139715586

Edit: trying to get the link to the photo and failing... Need sleep...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1329233502139715586/photo/1

 

[IheartIheartTesla]

26 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'm not sure I like Michigan's law on the subject:

I'm exhausted, but I don't see any reference to the popular vote here.

Yes, I read that too, and I didnt see popular vote mentioned there either. Still, I feel confident about the Michigan results (eventually), since the SoS, AG and governor of Michigan are all Democrats which helps a lot (not to mention extremely competent women). Trump will need more than Michigan to flip, however.

[SFDanny]

35 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I'm not sure I like Michigan's law on the subject:

I'm exhausted, but I don't see any reference to the popular vote here.

Each state has the power to decide how they will select their electoral college delegates. That being said, no state has the right to change the rules after the election and select electors in a way that is against the state mandated method in effect during the election. It is too late for State Legislatures to decide they can change the rules after the election.

Also, when the Congress sits in session to accept the results, they have to give preference to electoral votes certified by the Governor of each state. To change any votes requires a vote by each chamber of Congress. There is no way the House will overturn Biden's election. The fantasies of all the Trumpists out there rely on throwing out enough state's entire votes to deny anyone to have the 270 electoral votes necessary to win the election. It's not going to happen. Which leaves Trump with the only real option to stay in power by the use of force over the legal process that will put Biden in office. I don't underestimate Trump's willingness to do anything to stay in power, but he has an extremely small chance of staging a coup d' etat.

All of which is to say: be vigilant, but don't panic over the state of things.

This is a reference for everyone on the procedures governing Congress's joint meeting to accept the votes of the Electoral College votes.

My own paranoia centers on attempts to forcibly disrupt the voting of the electoral college votes in critical states. I'm afraid the right wing "militias" are going to do something, with Trump's encouragement, to stop the vote. The attempt to kill the Governor in Michigan is likely not the only crimes these fascist groups will attempt to commit.

[Week]

Two worlds in the thread

1) Trump subverting elections in an attempted power grab. Seems incompetent and ineffectual but then those in power with no interest in democracy if it means a Dem wins.

2) Circular during squad on the Left flank.

Folks, can we get the duly elected power transfer complete before we start fracturing? I'm fully in support of dragging the Biden WH to the Left and demanding accountability ... We haven't fully won the first battle against the Nazi's yet. We're still in the Ardennes forest here.

[Week]

Also to add, all of the calculus may change depending on the Jan 5th run-off. We have more wins to spike before we can truly have a conversation about the next administration. Not that bit can't/shouldn't be discussed - just that the ... passion is wasted at the moment and it's fucking jarring.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Even without Michigan Biden has 290.  Without Michigan and Georgia Biden has 274.  Trump needs to flip three states. 

That is a very tall order at this stage of the game.

[GrimTuesday]

5 minutes ago, Week said:

Also to add, all of the calculus may change depending on the Jan 5th run-off. We have more wins to spike before we can truly have a conversation about the next administration. Not that bit can't/shouldn't be discussed - just that the ... passion is wasted at the moment and it's fucking jarring.

It is important to look at the people that Biden is surrounding himself with because that is our best indicator as to how Biden is going to orient himself. Biden has been elected, that is over and done with, and no amount of bellyaching on this website is going to change the outcome of Georgia one way or another (unless Chataya has way more power and influence than we think she does) so let's lay off the crying about circular firing squads and let's start looking to the future.

[Rippounet]

So just in case anyone is interested, this seems to be the user guide for Dominion machines:

https://www.oann.com/files/UG-RTR-UserGuide-5-11-CO.pdf

This is supposed to prove that it's "easy" to change the results if you know the software.

Which is probably true - I recall John Oliver doing a piece on this kind of thing.

The problem however is confusing what's possible and what's true. Can the results be changed through the voting machines? Sure. Was it done in this election? So far everyone says it's bullshit. For instance, this BBC article:

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54959962

Its going to be a loooong couple of months.

[Week]

15 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

It is important to look at the people that Biden is surrounding himself with because that is our best indicator as to how Biden is going to orient himself. Biden has been elected, that is over and done with, and no amount of bellyaching on this website is going to change the outcome of Georgia one way or another (unless Chataya has way more power and influence than we think she does) so let's lay off the crying about circular firing squads and let's start looking to the future.

I didn't say the board would change Georgia. I said the calculus of what *could* get done changes dramatically. To throw it back to you, no amount of belly aching on this website is going to change who Biden surrounds himself with. In fact, the former still requires votes and a democratic process - opportunity for change. The latter is generally up to the President-elect. Unless one of you can slide into Biden's DMs and convince him otherwise. You're creating an arbitrary bar - what the board can influence - that means fuck all other than it supports your argument because *reasons*.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

35 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Even without Michigan Biden has 290.  Without Michigan and Georgia Biden has 274.  Trump needs to flip three states. 

That is a very tall order at this stage of the game.

Not that I think this will happen, but my guess is the logical process works something like this:

One state's election has been seen as invalid ---> another state's results are invalid ---> the election was clearly rigged ---. I, Donald J. Trump, in an effort to stop a coup, declare a state of national emergency and will stay in office.

Again, there's like a .001% chance of it, but it's the only thing I can come up with because I can't see how he would flip three states.

[Week]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not that I think this will happen, but my guess is the logical process works something like this:

One state's election has been seen as invalid ---> another state's results are invalid ---> the election was clearly rigged ---. I, Donald J. Trump, in an effort to stop a coup, declare a state of national emergency and will stay in office.

Again, there's like a .001% chance of it, but it's the only thing I can come up with because I can't see how he would flip three states.

Certainly seems like the case - there, obviously, is still no evidence to suggest any significant changes. How do you think this games out? I don't seem him conceding and slinking out of the WH - nor do I see him getting dragged out. I still think that he's most likely heading to Mar-a-Lago by Christmas and staying there - never relinquishing power or conceding. The government will need to peel itself away from him. It's going to be very ugly.