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US Politics - The Liar in Winter


Larry of the Lawn

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15 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Harris performance put her at the top of the VP list in a lot of ways. It might not have been the only thing, but it certainly helped her. It also helped that she had a strong set of followers that stayed pretty loyal too.

Obviously not the only thing, but it helped. 

Yeah. I wouldn't say no to a Harris presidency.

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I suspect you don't need to drive to NO to find that type of party.  I expected more from you.

:dunno:.. I don't like bars, and parties usually annoy me.

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29 minutes ago, DMC said:

I suspect you don't need to drive to NO to find that type of party.  I expected more from you.

Her debate performance(s)?  LOL, no.  Her having the best campaign rollout?  Yes.  And then of course her ability to demonstrate her fundraising capabilities, handling of the media, maintain loyal backers.  On top of her qualifications/desirable qualities before her campaign.  But to say one of the significant reasons Joe Biden chose her as his running mate is because of the debate where she implied Joe Biden was a racist - to his face - is quite hilarious.

Harris was always going to be a strong contender for VP even if during the primary debates she tripped over herself, called Joe Biden a cracker, punched Pete in the face, pantsed Beto, shoved Warren in a locker, lit up a joint, and threw up on the moderator. Come to think about it though if she had done that, I'd probably have voted for her over Sanders, because that would have been bad ass.

Harris's very existence made her the obvious VP pick, she is a strong, back woman from a safe seat that has some level of national name recognition. Beyond that, to my knowledge there is zero evidence that anyone decided their vote based on what she did at any point in the campaign. Clyburn already brought the African American vote, women were already voting Dem for the most part, and California was just a question of how big Biden's win would be.

Also she was super mid in all her debates and the only thing that ever stood out was when she called Biden a racist.

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11 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Clyburn already brought the African American vote, women were already voting Dem for the most part, and California was just a question of how big Biden's win would be.

To be clear, I'm not discounting Harris' potential role in securing the African American and/or women vote.  Just discounting the role her debate performance had to do with any of that.  Anyway, the whole point is getting far away from the current discussion.  Which was that debates almost always have no discernible influence on election outcomes, and that is especially the case with the current shitshow that comprises the GOP primary electorate.

28 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Heh, I live in western NY and I get people that assume NYC is like at most an hour drive away. (It’s like 6-8)

Yeah I grew up in Rochester.

44 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Listen to your friend Kalbear. He's a cool dude. He's trying to help you out.

I think it's generally a bad idea to listen to Owen Wilson for advice - in or out of character.

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Ok, let’s be honest. The US is a very flawed democratic system. To flawed to be called democratic at all in the 21st Century. This goes for the House, Senate and presidency. Then there comes the money issue. Sole Private financing of parties via donors is always dangerous and considering how much money is in the US political system, that’s a whole different level. 

unless massive changes are undertaken, nothing will get better. Trump was just the beginning. The US system is ripe to be overtaken by a smart, intelligent demagogue. Fortunately Trump was too much of a narcissist to be really smart. And still he got 74 million votes. Next time, fine tune a little bit more. Pander to the Latinos a little bit more. Many of them are socially conservative. It’s really easy actually, especially as the average education level in the US is not very high. Take someone of the intelligence and calmness of Putin and put him into the US. 

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6 hours ago, DMC said:

 

Yeah I grew up in Rochester.

 

I've been to Rochester. That's practically Canadian!  Explains so much...

 

Anyway, anyone else loving the MAGA Morons who moved over to Parler who are now calling for all true Georgia Republicans to boycott the run off elections because they're just gonna be rigged anyway...

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6 hours ago, Arakan said:

Ok, let’s be honest. The US is a very flawed democratic system. To flawed to be called democratic at all in the 21st Century. This goes for the House, Senate and presidency. Then there comes the money issue. Sole Private financing of parties via donors is always dangerous and considering how much money is in the US political system, that’s a whole different level. 

unless massive changes are undertaken, nothing will get better. Trump was just the beginning. The US system is ripe to be overtaken by a smart, intelligent demagogue. Fortunately Trump was too much of a narcissist to be really smart. And still he got 74 million votes. Next time, fine tune a little bit more. Pander to the Latinos a little bit more. Many of them are socially conservative. It’s really easy actually, especially as the average education level in the US is not very high. Take someone of the intelligence and calmness of Putin and put him into the US. 

I've heard this before. And I think it is probably accurate. But its not guaranteed. Someone who is a bit smarter, who panders a bit better to Latinos, easily might not have the WWE-style charisma that Trump used to inspire such loyalty among usually non-voting whites.

Voter turnout was incredibly high this year and we really don't know to what extent it will fall back on either side. But remember, if Trump got the same number of votes as he got in 2016 and Biden got what he got, Biden really would've hit over 400+ EVs. 

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6 hours ago, Arakan said:

Ok, let’s be honest. The US is a very flawed democratic system. To flawed to be called democratic at all in the 21st Century.

Keep in mind, our government wasn't designed to be a democracy, and we've only been a democratic system for 55 years. People conflate being the oldest constitutional republic with begin the oldest democracy. This is a mistake.

5 minutes ago, Fez said:

I've heard this before. And I think it is probably accurate. But its not guaranteed. Someone who is a bit smarter, who panders a bit better to Latinos, easily might not have the WWE-style charisma that Trump used to inspire such loyalty among usually non-voting whites.

Imagine Trump with an ounce of cunning. This hypothetical could have easily been reelected in a landside sans the pandemic.

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9 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Heh, I live in western NY and I get people that assume NYC is like at most an hour drive away. (It’s like 6-8)

Can't resist telling my own story about this--

I spent the years between ages 6 and 16 living in North Tonawanda, New York, which is inbetween Buffalo and Niagara Falls. My parents were from Virginia originally. They had another couple from Virginia living in Buffalo they were friends with. That couple had relatives in Virginia who wanted to know if their daughter could come live with them while she was attending dance school in New York City. :)

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Imagine Trump with an ounce of cunning. This hypothetical could have easily been reelected in a landside sans the pandemic.

And my point is that there's no reason to think a "Trump with cunning" is still Trump-like. 

I don't think Tom Cotton inspires the Trump-like loyalty and devotion; and instead gets the more standard GOP level of turnout.

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Keep in mind, our government wasn't designed to be a democracy, and we've only been a democratic system for 55 years.

It has been and always was a democracy. The limiting of the franchise is something all democracies do, ancient and modern, sometimes for good reasons (5-year-olds are not really capable of making informed decisions) and sometimes for bad (gender, skin color, property ownership, etc.). 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Fez said:

And my point is that there's no reason to think a "Trump with cunning" is still Trump-like. 

I don't think Tom Cotton inspires the Trump-like loyalty and devotion; and instead gets the more standard GOP level of turnout.

Tom Cotton and cunning don't belong in the same sentence.

Right now the issue is we don't know who is going to try and fill those shoes, but the devotion is there if one can do it well. And we can never forget that Trump is a moron. He's a D- student. Imagine what could happen if someone who was intelligent and charismatic came in to fill the void.

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

It has been and always was a democracy. The limiting of the franchise is something all democracies do, ancient and modern, sometimes for good reasons (5-year-olds are not really capable of making informed decisions) and sometimes for bad (gender, skin color, property ownership, etc.). 

 Sure, and all men are created equal except those that aren't. It's not really a democracy if those who are legally eligible to vote are still denied their vote. And it's not a democracy if the overwhelming majority of people have literally no say in their governance. 

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16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's not really a democracy if those who are legally eligible to vote are still denied their vote.

Who are you thinking of here? Again, limiting of the franchise is in itself not a reason to say a place is not a democracy.

16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And it's not a democracy if the overwhelming majority of people have literally no say in their governance. 

I mean, I guess, but that's a very ahistorical and particular definition of democracy you have there.

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9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Who are you thinking of here? Again, limiting of the franchise is in itself not a reason to say a place is not a democracy.

The Jim Crow South. People technically had the right to vote, but functionally couldn't vote. That's not democracy. We truly became one once the VRA was passed.

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I mean, I guess, but that's a very ahistorical and particular definition of democracy you have there.

You mean an egalitarian one? History is littered with mistakes, and we should learn from them, not be chained to them. 

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27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The Jim Crow South. People technically had the right to vote, but functionally couldn't vote. That's not democracy. We truly became one once the VRA was passed.

You mean an egalitarian one? History is littered with mistakes, and we should learn from them, not be chained to them. 

But our system is obviously different than Putin's Russia, despite our flaws and despite votes being cast in Russia.

If you were in America at the time of the Revolution would you support the rich white land-owner rebels or King George?

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14 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

But our system is obviously different than Putin's Russia, despite our flaws and despite votes being cast in Russia.

I mean, sure, but that's not really a good or valid comparison. 

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If you were in America at the time of the Revolution would you support the rich white land-owner rebels or King George?

If I was poor, landless and white or a black slave, would it really matter who I supported? Would my life change? 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

It has been and always was a democracy. 

Nope. Madison was very clear about that  (n°10). It's right there on the page.

The Founding Fathers were more honest about the fact that electing representatives limits the power of the people, pretty much by definition.

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17 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Nope. Madison was very clear about that  (n°10). It's right there on the page.

The Founding Fathers were more honest about the fact that electing representatives limits the power of the people, pretty much by definition.

It really depends on where you set the limits. I could take an extreme stand that there is no Democracy if the people are not allowed to vote on issues every single day of the year and recall representatives at any time.

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1 minute ago, Martell Spy said:

It really depends on where you set the limits. I could take an extreme stand that there is no Democracy if the people are not allowed to vote on issues every single day of the year and recall representatives at any time.

Well, if the people voted on issues every single day, they wouldn't need representatives because they would function as the legislature.

They could still recall executive positions like governor, I guess. 

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2 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

It really depends on where you set the limits. I could take an extreme stand that there is no Democracy if the people are not allowed to vote on issues every single day of the year and recall representatives at any time.

Flipside is a king is a democracy of one. 

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3 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Well, if the people voted on issues every single day, they wouldn't need representatives because they would function as the legislature.

They could still recall executive positions like governor, I guess. 

Well, you could have symbolic representatives who are mainly there to be media celebrities. And yes, recall judges and executive positions.

Or instead of being able to vote on every issue every day, just simply have the power to vote out a rep every day if they are not voting the way the people want. Perhaps there could be 2 factions proposing both these methods as the True Democracy.

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