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Mark O'Kane

Westerlands Army Numbers

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Following on from my post about the North, I'd like to clarify the Westerlands Army size. It is impossible to determine the exact size of each house as Tywin keeps sole command of his army and all the Westerland soldiers except the Generals wear Lanniater red armor. Tywin does this to show his complete control over his vassals. 

Jaime has an army of 30000 men to attack the Riverlands. He defeats the lords Piper and Vance, going through them like an axe through cheese. He then has twelve thousand foot surround and lay siege to Riverrun while he takes 2-3000 of his finest knights to defeat the remnants of the Piper Vance host. He lost around half his men as the riverlords vowed to water the soil with lannister blood, fighting to the last man. Once Jaime is captured, all his men are killed by Robb except 4000 who retreat to the Golden Tooth. These 4000 join with Stafford Lannister's 10000 but they are all killed agaim by Robb. Then Daven Lannister sieges Riverrun again with 1000 men who are survivors from all those battles. 

Tywin has 30000 men but then he loses 10000 in the quick march through the Riverlands as he has 20000 when he links up with Tyrion, who augments his force with 300 mountain men. He loses 1000 plus 150 mountain men in the battle of the Green Fork and a few hundred afterwards on the way to Harrenhal. He and Tyrion then claim to have 20000 to the Red Viper but this is a bluff as far less are left as he lost thousands against Stannis as he led the Vanguard with Garlan Tyrell. 2000 go to Dragonstone (1000 die) plus 800 with Jaime so roughly 15000-16000 died against Stannis (500 left with Tywin's body). 

In summary the Westerlands are completely spent, and overall are the weakest Kingdom left

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mark O'Kane said:

Following on from my post about the North, I'd like to clarify the Westerlands Army size. It is impossible to determine the exact size of each house as Tywin keeps sole command of his army and all the Westerland soldiers except the Generals wear Lanniater red armor. Tywin does this to show his complete control over his vassals. 

Jaime has an army of 30000 men to attack the Riverlands. He defeats the lords Piper and Vance, going through them like an axe through cheese. He then has twelve thousand foot surround and lay siege to Riverrun while he takes 2-3000 of his finest knights to defeat the remnants of the Piper Vance host. He lost around half his men as the riverlords vowed to water the soil with lannister blood, fighting to the last man. Once Jaime is captured, all his men are killed by Robb except 4000 who retreat to the Golden Tooth. These 4000 join with Stafford Lannister's 10000 but they are all killed agaim by Robb. Then Daven Lannister sieges Riverrun again with 1000 men who are survivors from all those battles. 

Tywin has 30000 men but then he loses 10000 in the quick march through the Riverlands as he has 20000 when he links up with Tyrion, who augments his force with 300 mountain men. He loses 1000 plus 150 mountain men in the battle of the Green Fork and a few hundred afterwards on the way to Harrenhal. He and Tyrion then claim to have 20000 to the Red Viper but this is a bluff as far less are left as he lost thousands against Stannis as he led the Vanguard with Garlan Tyrell. 2000 go to Dragonstone (1000 die) plus 800 with Jaime so roughly 15000-16000 died against Stannis (500 left with Tywin's body). 

In summary the Westerlands are completely spent, and overall are the weakest Kingdom left

 

 

Wrong. You’re using numbers from the abomination. Jaime had 15,000, while Tywin had 20,000.
Jaime’s army is mostly destroyed after the Battle of the Camps, with just 4000 retreating in good order. We can assume that they joined Tywin’s force eventually, and since Tywin lost men in the Riverlands, but Tyrion says that his father commands 20,000 in ASOS, we can assume that he lost around 4000 before liberating King’s Landing from Stannis.

There’s also around 10,000 men at Oxcross, with most of them killed, plus who knows how many others killed throughout Robb’s Westerlands campaign. 

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The Lannister army gets sent home at one point in ASOS as well, as the Tyrells are the ones fielding the armies. The only parts left are small forces.

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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

Jaime’s army is mostly destroyed after the Battle of the Camps, with just 4000 retreating in good order. We can assume that they joined Tywin’s force eventually, and since Tywin lost men in the Riverlands, but Tyrion says that his father commands 20,000 in ASOS, we can assume that he lost around 4000 before liberating King’s Landing from Stannis.

I wouldn't. Prester retreated to the Golden Tooth, and George expects he sent men to Stafford. Later he shows up at Riverrun.

ACoK, Catelyn III.

Quote

Stannis clenched his jaw, his face taut. "I swore I would never treat with you while you wore your traitor's crown. Would that I had kept to that vow."

"This is folly," Catelyn said sharply. "Lord Tywin sits at Harrenhal with twenty thousand swords. The remnants of the Kingslayer's army have regrouped at the Golden Tooth, another Lannister host gathers beneath the shadow of Casterly Rock, and Cersei and her son hold King's Landing and your precious Iron Throne. You each name yourself king, yet the kingdom bleeds, and no one lifts a sword to defend it but my son."

SSM, The Tooth and the Tyroshi.

Quote

First; did Ser Forley Prester send any part of his 4000 men at the Golden Tooth to Ser Stafford Lannister at Oxcross, in order to augment his host? Or were they all kept at the Tooth by Prester?

That's much too big a garrison for a small castle like the Tooth, so I expect that he sent many of them down to Ser Stafford. Blooded veterans to help train the raw green levies... of course, that didn't work out too well...

ASoS, Tyrion III.

Quote

"What do we know of Stark's plans and movements?" asked Mathis Rowan, ever blunt and to the point.

"He has run back to Riverrun with his plunder, abandoning the castles he took in the west," announced Lord Tywin. "Our cousin Ser Daven is reforming the remnants of his late father's army at Lannisport. When they are ready he shall join Ser Forley Prester at the Golden Tooth. As soon as the Stark boy starts north, Ser Forley and Ser Daven will descend on Riverrun."

 

Edited by TsarGrey

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20.000 men under Tywin

15.000 under Jaime

10.000 under Stafford

results in 45.000 men all in all, with the Westerlands pretty dried up at this poing

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On 11/22/2020 at 11:49 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

20.000 men under Tywin

15.000 under Jaime

10.000 under Stafford

results in 45.000 men all in all, with the Westerlands pretty dried up at this poing

Dried up? Howso? At least 20,000 of those men are still alive.

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It is useless to try to figure out army numbers. They will be precisely what the story needs them to be. No more, no less. If GRRM wishes so, he can retcon the shit out of army numbers anywhere. He can conjure up armies or he can reduce them as he did with Dorne and the North.

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1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:
On 11/22/2020 at 6:49 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

20.000 men under Tywin

15.000 under Jaime

10.000 under Stafford

results in 45.000 men all in all, with the Westerlands pretty dried up at this poing

Dried up? Howso? At least 20,000 of those men are still alive.

Dried up in that there doesn't seem to be anything in the way of reserves. The roughly 20+ k still left to the Lannisters are pretty much it. Remember Stafford was kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel, that was why his army was so ill prepared

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On 11/24/2020 at 11:31 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Dried up in that there doesn't seem to be anything in the way of reserves. The roughly 20+ k still left to the Lannisters are pretty much it. Remember Stafford was kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel, that was why his army was so ill prepared

He was scraping the bottom of the Lannisport area reserves.

"We have some time yet before we must face them. This lot will be sellswords, freeriders, and green boys from the stews of Lannisport. Ser Stafford must see that they are armed and drilled before he dare risk battle"

And given how untrained they are and how Robb still won't risk facing Lannisport, we can expect that Stafford did not take the Lannisport Watch with him

GRRM: "Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined, and the City Watch of Lannisport is well trained as well... much better than their counterparts in Oldtown and King's Landing."

 

As for the Westerlands, it is hard to say what kind of reserves they have left. The Westerlings, an incredibly poor House by the standards of the Westerlands

"The Westerling mines had failed years ago, their best lands had been sold off or lost, and the Crag was more ruin than stronghold."

Still had men that died in the defence of the Crag, likely some who chose to stay with their families and the Westerlings still managed to bring 50 men to Robb.

I doubt we are looking at the West as being left with fewer men than the North was.

On 11/22/2020 at 4:49 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

20.000 men under Tywin

Likely a couple of thousand more. Tywin had 20k with him when Tyrion came upon his camp, but he still had Harrenhal and other regions of the Riverlands. While the vast majority of his men would have been with him, it does not seem that all of them would have been.

After the battles of the Green Fork, Fords, Blackwater, leaving (skeleton) garrisons at Harrenhal Tywin has still almost 20k left. So I'd guess that he started off with a higher number than 20k

On 11/22/2020 at 4:49 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

15.000 under Jaime

Seems about right.

On 11/22/2020 at 4:49 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

10.000 under Stafford

We don't know how many men were with Stafford. We do know that a portion of those men were some survivors of Jaime's army, as 4k of his men escaped without battle at Riverrun under the leadership of Forley Prester.

Forley Prester does not seem to have been with Stafford when he was defeated, but he will has sent off a decent amount of his forces to him.

On 11/22/2020 at 4:49 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

results in 45.000 men all in all, with the Westerlands pretty dried up at this poing

It is hard to say how dried up they are, or if we simply have different understandings of the term dried up.

I'd bet, like the North's capital region, the West's capital region was dried up, though obviously with more men left behind to defend its capital and major city. The rest of Westeros is hard to say. I can't imagine Fair Isle or Banefort will have been tapped out considering their proximity to the Iron Islands. Nor the border regions such as the Crakehalls against the Reach or the regions that guard the Westerlands from the Riverlands.

I'd also guess that not all Lords supplied the same. That the closely related Marbrands, with their lands not close to any borders, may have overstretched their resources in comparison to other Lords in more precarious positions. There would also be Westerland equivalents to Bolton and Dustin, cautious and not ready to weaken themselves to help the Lannisters.

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2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There would also be Westerland equivalents to Bolton and Dustin, cautious and not ready to weaken themselves to help the Lannisters.

Given Tywin's past I think they'd be scared shitless of what would happen if they didn't go all in with him

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1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Given Tywin's past I think they'd be scared shitless of what would happen if they didn't go all in with him

Both Lady Dustin and Bolton speak about their fear of House Stark, they were still cautious.

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Just now, Bernie Mac said:

Both Lady Dustin and Bolton speak about their fear of House Stark, they were still cautious.

Neither Ned or Robb exterminated the last houses to rebel. I think the Farman incident shows the dynamic in the Westerlands quite well.

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20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Neither Ned or Robb exterminated the last houses to rebel. I think the Farman incident shows the dynamic in the Westerlands quite well.

Jorah Mormont fleeing the North for his life is a more recent incident than one that happened 40 years ago.

Though we seem to be going in circles. There is no evidence that Tywin demanded all of his Lords overstretch themself and actual evidence that he did do what Robb did, and leave himself vulnerable in important strategic positions.

  • Unlike Winterfell, it appears, at least according to Robb, that Casterly Rock and Lannisport were still well defended
  • Despite the royal Navy being destroyed or in the hands of Stannis, Tywin does not order the Westerlands navy to Kings Landing, instead keeps them were they are needed for potential attack
  • Despite the news of Stafford's defeat Tywin does not call upon support of the Kings Landing soldiers, but prefers to leave them were they are potentially needed unlike former Hands of the King like Criston Cole who marched away from the capital with an army of Gold Cloaks during the Dance.
  • The Crag actually having more soldiers left behind than the North's capital

 

The idea that some regions of the Westerlands, the ones close to the borders of their enemies, are not 'dried up' is pretty sound.

 

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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Once again the Op mixes up show and book numbers horribly despite being both completely incompatible.

Jamie likely had more than 15,000. We know he had roughly that many when Robb arrived. Jamie probably lost men fighting Edmure and his bannermen. Might not have been many but surely Edmure is reasonable enough that one could assume perhaps 5,000 between the two battles and small skirmishes that took place before the Whispering wood. We know Jamie rode out to storm nearby holdfasts and was facing raids by surviving Rivermen he could have taken further losses in these actions.

Tywin had 20,000 or so when Tyrion arrived. He likely had brought more but lost men in storming castles and in garrisoning them. He likely got some of these back as he was able to make up his losses from both the Green fork and the Fords and the Blackwater as I think he's mentioned to have 20,000 after the later.

Stafford's army's size is uncertain. It was clearly large enough that a pincer between it and Tywin was a significant threat. Some of it's ranks are part of the 4,000 who escaped Riverrun while the rest are fresh recruits and mercenaries. At least 10,000 seems reasonable but ti could easily have grown as large as 20,000.

All these plus the garrisons holding Westerland castles. You could easily assume the Westerlands could perhaps muster 65,000 thousand men or more. The Lannisters have been bled but reasonably they still have roughly maybe 30,000 men they could organize. (Survivors of Stafford's army and Most of Tywin's army plus garrisons that could be call upon to suplement their army if they get that desperate against someone.)

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