Why did Rhaegar bring Lyanna to Dorne?

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, I don't think so. Aerys didn't know where Rhaegar was or he would have been retrieved earlier. Jon Connington would definitely have sent people to Rhaegar if he knew. Rhaegar was doing things secretly, which is also why Robert Baratheon didn't send a larger force there and instead Ned was able to handpick a smaller number of people. The ToJ is far from KL but near Starfall, and if Wylla had already been sent from Starfall to the ToJ (and perhaps they kept the tower supplied in other ways) people there would have known, and Ned knows at least one person in Starfall, who (as others here pointed out) might wind up feeling guilty enough about telling him to commit suicide.

Some believe that Rhaegar spent the beginning of Robert's Rebellion, also known as the War of the Usurper, with Lyanna Stark at the tower of joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne. King Aerys sent Ser Gerold Hightower, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, to retrieve Rhaegar. Leaving Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ser Oswell Whent at the tower, Rhaegar returned to the crownlands and took command of the Targaryen army after the defeat of his friend Jon Connington in the battle of the Bells.~A Wiki of Ice and Fire

You should read every comment next time.

[John Suburbs]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:03 AM, Angel Eyes said:

The initial absconding had Rhaegar, Arthur, and Oswell. Gerold Hightower didn't go to Dorne until Robert's Rebellion was underway, since he was present when Rickard and Brandon Stark were roasted.

Actually, Dayne and Whent are never mentioned by name. But the initial absconding story is full of holes. Why would Rhaegar and Co. kidnap Lyanna in such a public way? Why would noble knights like Dayne and Whent go along with this mad plan? Why would Aerys subsequently entrust Rhaegar with an army capable of overthrowing him after Rhaegar has done such a thing? Why would Rhaegar do this to the very lords that he was supposedly plotting with to overthrow Aerys?

And in the end, three KG decide to turn their cloaks? Including the Lord Commander? Even Aegon the Unworthy saw better loyalty than that, and he tried to kill his Lord Commander, aka his own brother, and executed a sworn brother for shagging his mistress. 

[FictionIsntReal]

18 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Some believe that Rhaegar spent

Some now believe in present-tense, I'm arguing people didn't know Rhaegar was at the ToJ at the time.

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would Rhaegar and Co. kidnap Lyanna in such a public way?

How public was it? Who witnessed it? We don't know.

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Why would Aerys subsequently entrust Rhaegar with an army capable of overthrowing him after Rhaegar has done such a thing?

Aerys' other commanders have failed, and Rhaegar at minimum has an incentive to defeat the houses he wronged into rebellion. Additionally, Aerys has Rhaegar's family as hostages in KL (this is also Aerys' leverage against Lewyn Martell during the same battle).

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Why would Rhaegar do this to the very lords that he was supposedly plotting with to overthrow Aerys?

Who says Rhaegar was plotting with lords Stark or Baratheon? Aerys may have mistakenly believed that, but he's also insane. At any rate, once Brandon Stark starts calling for Rhaegar to come out & die Aerys regards his house as a bigger threat than his own son.

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And in the end, three KG decide to turn their cloaks?

Not precisely, they were obeying the order of someone who was (at the time) the king's heir. That's very different from Jaime or Toyne more directly betraying their kings.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 11/22/2020 at 11:11 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Of all places to abscond with someone, why did Rhaegar Targaryen choose to bring Lyanna Stark to Dorne? He certainly had some nerve showing his face there after disgracing their princess twice over. 

Rhaegar is / was loony as a bedbug .Or it was Arthur Dayne who kidnapped Lyanna .

[Rose of Red Lake]

If he was willing to disrespect his wife to her face I think showing up in Dorne again is just more of the same type of behavior. Total nutter.

[John Suburbs]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:42 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

How public was it? Who witnessed it? We don't know.

Aerys' other commanders have failed, and Rhaegar at minimum has an incentive to defeat the houses he wronged into rebellion. Additionally, Aerys has Rhaegar's family as hostages in KL (this is also Aerys' leverage against Lewyn Martell during the same battle).

Who says Rhaegar was plotting with lords Stark or Baratheon? Aerys may have mistakenly believed that, but he's also insane. At any rate, once Brandon Stark starts calling for Rhaegar to come out & die Aerys regards his house as a bigger threat than his own son.

Not precisely, they were obeying the order of someone who was (at the time) the king's heir. That's very different from Jaime or Toyne more directly betraying their kings.

Exactly. Why would Rhaegar do this where anyone would see? Why would he do it in a way that people would recognize him? And if all of this was an elopement and not a kidnapping, then how could anyone mistake a man and a woman riding off together as a kidnapping? So how did this story get out, and how did it spread so quickly?

These are the very same houses that he was plotting with to overthrow Aerys no half-a-year ago. I can think of dozens of others who Aerys would trust more that Rhaegar at this point: Lewyn Martell, Hightower, Darry, Whent, Tyrell, even Tywin. All of this is Rhaegar's fault to begin with, and he went off to enjoy himself while Aerys had to deal with the fallout. Rhaegar should be the very last person in the world Aerys would trust at this point.

Whether Rhaegar was truly plotting or not is irrelevant. Aerys believes he was; that's why he went to Harrenhal. He may be insane, but he's not stupid. When Brandon showed up calling for Rhaegar, this would have been the perfect opportunity to get rid of them both: Rhaegar for his mad act and Brandon for threatening a prince of the blood. Instead, he protects Rhaegar, who still has done nothing to warrant Aerys' trust or affection. Why?

If they are there on Rhaegar's orders and abandon their king to die at the hands of rebels, they are oathbreakers plain and simple. All three, all at once. Unheard of.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 11/30/2020 at 10:20 AM, John Suburbs said:

Exactly. Why would Rhaegar do this where anyone would see? Why would he do it in a way that people would recognize him?

As I said, we don't know where Rhaegar did this or how visible it was or how recognizable he was.

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And if all of this was an elopement and not a kidnapping, then how could anyone mistake a man and a woman riding off together as a kidnapping?

We don't actually know that it wasn't a kidnapping, and at any rate the Starks would regard it as such since they had already arranged otherwise for Lyanna.

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These are the very same houses that he was plotting with to overthrow Aerys no half-a-year ago

No, we don't know that he was doing any plotting with any members of the STAB bloc. He was implied to be in cahoots with House Whent, who are bannermen of the Tullies but were not at that time linked to the Starks.

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I can think of dozens of others who Aerys would trust more that Rhaegar at this point: Lewyn Martell, Hightower, Darry, Whent, Tyrell, even Tywin.

What is "this point"? Rhaegar was absent between then and the Trident. And Lewyn Martell WAS sent with Rhaegar to lead an army there, with Elia serving as a hostage to motivate him. Whent was absent the whole time (due to being in cahoots with Rhaegar alongside Arthur Dayne), and Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and never came back. Tyrell was busy besieging Storm's End, and Tywin wasn't responding until after the Trident.

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Rhaegar should be the very last person in the world Aerys would trust at this point.

I would think the people whose deaths Aerys ordered would actually be the last people :)

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When Brandon showed up calling for Rhaegar, this would have been the perfect opportunity to get rid of them both: Rhaegar for his mad act and Brandon for threatening a prince of the blood. Instead, he protects Rhaegar, who still has done nothing to warrant Aerys' trust or affection. Why?

Are you expecting the Mad King to be like Tywin? He was mad!

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If they are there on Rhaegar's orders and abandon their king to die at the hands of rebels, they are oathbreakers plain and simple. All three, all at once. Unheard of.

Rhaegar was expecting to win the battle, and I expect that's what he told the KG when he ordered them to stay at the ToJ. Once he lost (and we don't know how long it took for them to hear about that), they were too far from KL to get there in time.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As I said, we don't know where Rhaegar did this or how visible it was or how recognizable he was.

We don't actually know that it wasn't a kidnapping, and at any rate the Starks would regard it as such since they had already arranged otherwise for Lyanna.

No, we don't know that he was doing any plotting with any members of the STAB bloc. He was implied to be in cahoots with House Whent, who are bannermen of the Tullies but were not at that time linked to the Starks.

What is "this point"? Rhaegar was absent between then and the Trident. And Lewyn Martell WAS sent with Rhaegar to lead an army there, with Elia serving as a hostage to motivate him. Whent was absent the whole time (due to being in cahoots with Rhaegar alongside Arthur Dayne), and Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar and never came back. Tyrell was busy besieging Storm's End, and Tywin wasn't responding until after the Trident.

I would think the people whose deaths Aerys ordered would actually be the last people

Are you expecting the Mad King to be like Tywin? He was mad!

Rhaegar was expecting to win the battle, and I expect that's what he told the KG when he ordered them to stay at the ToJ. Once he lost (and we don't know how long it took for them to hear about that), they were too far from KL to get there in time.

Well, we know that the tale of the kidnapping got out before anyone realized that Lyanna was missing. Otherwise, that would have been the first word that anything was wrong. So if either the kidnapping or elopement is true, then someone must have seen this encounter and known it was Rhaegar and Lyanna. So my question is why Rhaegar would make himself recognizable at all? Why would he want anyone to know that he is with Lyanna?

Correct, we don't know who Rhaegar was or was not plotting with. But Aerys believes this to be the case. It's why he went to Harrenhal. And since then, Rhaegar has done nothing to earn his father's trust and is in fact the author of events that have now placed the entire Targ dynasty in jeopardy. So why on earth would Aerys, even mad as he is, suddenly trust Rhaegar with an army capable of dethroning him?

"This point" is when Aerys calls Rhaegar back to the capital to give him command of the army. Besides being untrustworthy, Rhaeger has never even fought in a battle, let alone led a host. Aerys has plenty of seasoned men to do this. Whent, Hightower, Dayne are all available under the theory that they are at the ToJ with Aerys' blessing. Lewyn was sent to the Trident with Rhaegar as his commander, so command could easily have gone to him. Tyrell, Tarley, Redwyne, any of the Reach lords are available, even Thorne. All of these men are far more qualified than Rhaegar. I don't recall Aerys ordering any of their deaths.

The Mad King was still aware enough to set up wildfire throughout the capital, to compel Lewyn and Rhaegar to lead his army, to remove Hands when they displeased him. He would certainly be aware of an opportunity to rid himself of his troublesome son when it arose.

They are KG. Their first responsibility is to protect the king and give their lives for him if necessary. They obey commands from the crown prince as a courtesy, not to the point where it interferes with their avowed duty -- and certainly not to stand guard over his kidnap/rape victim. If Ned's fever dream is accurate, then they already knew about the Trident by the time he got there, already knew about Aerys and Aegon and would therefore be honor-bound to give their swords to Viserys, not to Jon who can in no way, shape or form be considered legitimate by the faith that they all follow. Nor would he be the new king if Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident -- Aegon would be. So here we have these three sworn KG, regarded as the most noble, honorable knights in the land, foreswearing their duty to three kings all to protect the victim of Rhaegar's brutal defilement. Sorry, but no. Not even Maegor or Aegon the Unworthy saw such a mass defection of KG.

 

[LynnS]

On 11/24/2020 at 11:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

And in the end, three KG decide to turn their cloaks? Including the Lord Commander? Even Aegon the Unworthy saw better loyalty than that, and he tried to kill his Lord Commander, aka his own brother, and executed a sworn brother for shagging his mistress. 

I just figure they were waiting there to take command of the 10,000 troops that never showed up.  And that they decided to fulfill their oath to fight for Aerys to their death.   Brienne says that a promise made to the dead must be kept.

[FictionIsntReal]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, we know that the tale of the kidnapping got out before anyone realized that Lyanna was missing. Otherwise, that would have been the first word that anything was wrong.

None of the main books take place while this was occurring, so we don't know what information got to who at what time. We've got accounts from afterward, in which Brandon's response is salient because of what happened afterward.

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So if either the kidnapping or elopement is true, then someone must have seen this encounter and known it was Rhaegar and Lyanna. So my question is why Rhaegar would make himself recognizable at all? Why would he want anyone to know that he is with Lyanna?

Just because someone is caught/observed doesn't mean they deliberately "made themselves known" or "wanted anyone to know". Perhaps he incorrectly thought nobody would know until later!

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Correct, we don't know who Rhaegar was or was not plotting with. But Aerys believes this to be the case. It's why he went to Harrenhal. And since then, Rhaegar has done nothing to earn his father's trust and is in fact the author of events that have now placed the entire Targ dynasty in jeopardy.

He hasn't acted in a trustworthy fashion, but by setting himself at odds with various Lords Paramount, he has proven himself not to be on the same page as them!

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So why on earth would Aerys, even mad as he is, suddenly trust Rhaegar with an army capable of dethroning him?

Aerys needs to throw enough troops at Robert to defeat him at the Trident, and he can afford to have a smaller number in KL because defenders have an advantage behind walls. He can trust Rhaegar to fight Robert because Rhaegar has made himself Robert's enemy. Also, Aerys has Rhaegar's family as hostages in KL.

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"This point" is when Aerys calls Rhaegar back to the capital to give him command of the army. Besides being untrustworthy, Rhaeger has never even fought in a battle, let alone led a host. Aerys has plenty of seasoned men to do this. Whent, Hightower, Dayne are all available under the theory that they are at the ToJ with Aerys' blessing.

Who accepts that theory? The text gives no indication Aerys ever heard of the ToJ.

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Lewyn was sent to the Trident with Rhaegar as his commander, so command could easily have gone to him.

Rhaegar had been a very popular prince, and by birth he outranks everyone else at the Trident. Lewyn is Dornish, and many Westerosi still don't like the Dornish.

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Tyrell, Tarley, Redwyne, any of the Reach lords are available, even Thorne. All of these men are far more qualified than Rhaegar. I don't recall Aerys ordering any of their deaths.

Mace Tyrell's host from the Reach was besieging Storm's End. Perhaps he could have spared more troops for the Trident while still keeping up that siege. That's a calculation someone would have to make, and not an area where you can just assume the Mad King would do what you think is most sensible.

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The Mad King was still aware enough to set up wildfire throughout the capital, to compel Lewyn and Rhaegar to lead his army, to remove Hands when they displeased him. He would certainly be aware of an opportunity to rid himself of his troublesome son when it arose.

Getting rid of Robert was taking priority at that point.

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If Ned's fever dream is accurate, then they already knew about the Trident by the time he got there, already knew about Aerys and Aegon and would therefore be honor-bound to give their swords to Viserys, not to Jon who can in no way, shape or form be considered legitimate by the faith that they all follow. Nor would he be the new king if Rhaegar expected to win at the Trident -- Aegon would be.

Viserys already had someone looking after him across the Narrow Sea, and didn't really need extra swords immediately. Rhaegar had given them orders for the ToJ, and Jon was helpless without them. The KG aren't proclaiming Jon to be heir, but they still feel obligated to protect him with their lives.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

I just figure they were waiting there to take command of the 10,000 troops that never showed up.  And that they decided to fulfill their oath to fight for Aerys to their death.   Brienne says that a promise made to the dead must be kept.

What 10,000 troops? Why would Aerys send 10,000 troops that are badly needed on the Trident out to the middle of nowhere?

And these 3 KG made a vow to Aerys to guard Lyanna and her baby to the death? Why would Aerys care what happens to them more than what happens to himself?

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

None of the main books take place while this was occurring, so we don't know what information got to who at what time. We've got accounts from afterward, in which Brandon's response is salient because of what happened afterward.

Just because someone is caught/observed doesn't mean they deliberately "made themselves known" or "wanted anyone to know". Perhaps he incorrectly thought nobody would know until later!

He hasn't acted in a trustworthy fashion, but by setting himself at odds with various Lords Paramount, he has proven himself not to be on the same page as them!

Aerys needs to throw enough troops at Robert to defeat him at the Trident, and he can afford to have a smaller number in KL because defenders have an advantage behind walls. He can trust Rhaegar to fight Robert because Rhaegar has made himself Robert's enemy. Also, Aerys has Rhaegar's family as hostages in KL.

Who accepts that theory? The text gives no indication Aerys ever heard of the ToJ.

Rhaegar had been a very popular prince, and by birth he outranks everyone else at the Trident. Lewyn is Dornish, and many Westerosi still don't like the Dornish.

Mace Tyrell's host from the Reach was besieging Storm's End. Perhaps he could have spared more troops for the Trident while still keeping up that siege. That's a calculation someone would have to make, and not an area where you can just assume the Mad King would do what you think is most sensible.

Getting rid of Robert was taking priority at that point.

Viserys already had someone looking after him across the Narrow Sea, and didn't really need extra swords immediately. Rhaegar had given them orders for the ToJ, and Jon was helpless without them. The KG aren't proclaiming Jon to be heir, but they still feel obligated to protect him with their lives.

Nowhere do we hear any story other than Rhaegar taking Lyanna by force, and this is the first thing that reaches Brandon. If Rhaegar either kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna in cognito, then the first word would be that Lyanna was missing, and this would be the story for days until Rhaegar announced it himself or one of his companions betrayed him and spilled the beans. If not, then he must have done it openly, identifying himself and her right then and there for all to see. Why would he do this?

The odds of someone on the kingsroad or anywhere else knowing Rhaegar or Lyanna on sight are infinitesimally small. Only a tiny handful or high lords and ladies have ever seen them up close. So unless Rhaegar was wearing his trademark armor and colors, no one should know who this is. Even his blond hair can be easily covered by a hood. And this would happen in broad daylight in a place with lots of witnesses. So why is Rhaegar taking such great pains to make it so obvious that this is what he is doing? Why does he want the entire world to know that he is a kidnapper and a rapist?

Rhaegar is also setting himself at odds with Aerys by stirring up this shitstorm and than spending months blissfully enjoying the delights of his captive while Aerys has to deal with the fallout. And yes, Rhaegar was supposed to have been plotting with these very lords just a few short weeks ago because he needs their support to take the crown. Don't you think it's odd that he would suddenly betray them in such a brutal, depsicable fashion?

The question isn't why Rhaegar fought for Aerys, but why Aerys would want Rhaegar to fight for him. Rhaegar has done nothing to earn this level of trust, and everything he has done since Harrenhal should destroy whatever lingering doubt Aerys might have had about his disloyalty. So sure, Aerys can trust Rhaegar to fight Robert because Aerys is holding his family. But then what happens afterward when Rhaegar returns to the capital as the conquering hero with an army at his back? Is he going to lock the gates to him? Keep his family in captivity? Aerys will be utterly powerless to prevent Rhaegar from clapping him in irons and taking his crown. And as a side note: Rhaegar has just abandoned his wife and children to slake his lust on Lyanna, so how valuable would they be as hostages?

The history is that Aerys sent Hightower to recall Rhaegar wherever he was. Whether he knew Rhaegar was at the ToJ is debatable. But for some reason, Hightower did not bring Rhaegar back himself but stayed at the ToJ, and Aerys seemingly had no problem with this.

Birth and rank have nothing to do with commanding an army. By this logic, Joffrey should have been in charge at the Blackwater. Experience and trust are the two most important factors, and Rhaegar has neither of these.

No, a portion of the Reach army was gathered up by Selmy and Darry and brought to the Trident. And if Mace Tyrell needs to sit at Storm's End, he doesn't need Tarley or Fossoway or Florent or all his other lords. But the fact is that Aerys does not trust any of them either. Hightower would be the most obvious choice, but Lewyn, Selmy, Darry or any number of crownland lords would have been just as good. Rhaegar is completely antithetical to what Aerys should have been thinking.

Getting rid of Robert was not the priority. That is one-dimensional thinking, and if Aerys was doing that he would not have been setting up the wildfire. Also, Rhaegar as commander in no way guarantees victory over Robert, but a more seasoned leader and warrior like Hightower might. Surviving the war with his power intact was the priority, and giving Rhaegar command of an army that can depose him is in complete 180-degree conflict with this goal.

Viserys was not across the Narrow Sea, he was on Dragonstone -- a relatively short trip from Storm's End where the loyalist army is encamped with a navy that could take them to their new king in short order. If they stayed to protect Jon on Rhaegar's orders and left their king and his two heirs to die then they are oathbreakers, plain and simple. And nowhere in the history of Westeros do you find three KG suddenly deciding to break their vows and shame themselves before gods and men (except in the DoD when the rightful king was in dispute) -- not even for utterly horrible, sadistic kings like Maegor and Aegon IV.

 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Maybe he went to Dorne because he was expecting Elia to join him there with the children as soon as she recovered from Aegon's birth.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What 10,000 troops? Why would Aerys send 10,000 troops that are badly needed on the Trident out to the middle of nowhere?

Werern't they waiting for troops from Dorne?

[TheLastWolf]

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Where else could he have taken her to, Winterfell? 

It was Arthur Dayne alright 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Werern't they waiting for troops from Dorne?

Not that I'm aware of. They were just three of Aerys top defenders, men who would certainly have made a difference on the Trident or in the Red Keep, wiling away the days guarding Rhaegar's victim way out in the middle of nowhere, and only a handful of people even know they are there.

Lewyn brought about 10k Dornishmen to Kings Landing as part of the army that marched to the Trident, but no one was dispatched to the ToJ. It's deep in the heart of royalist-controlled territory, so why would they need to send an army there?  

[nyser1]

Possible reasons:

 

• a big FU to his wife, House Martell.
• Because he could.
• To keep her as far away from the looming white walker threat as possible (in addition to their child).
• To keep her as far away as possible from the fighting, the rebels.
• Scattering loved ones in case the capital fell.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 12/3/2020 at 11:13 AM, John Suburbs said:

And these 3 KG made a vow to Aerys to guard Lyanna and her baby to the death?

I doubt Aerys knew about that at all, instead the vow was to Rhaegar.

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Nowhere do we hear any story other than Rhaegar taking Lyanna by force

What force do we hear was used? Was she traveling with anyone that was overpowered?

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and this is the first thing that reaches Brandon

We actually don't know if he heard anything before that. If he'd just heard she didn't show up, he wouldn't have reason to go to KL, but going to KL is the important part of the story.

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Rhaegar either kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna in cognito, then the first word would be that Lyanna was missing, and this would be the story for days until Rhaegar announced it himself or one of his companions betrayed him and spilled the beans

We don't know whether he planned to do so without being noticed and failed, and we don't know if anyone spilled the beans.

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The odds of someone on the kingsroad or anywhere else knowing Rhaegar or Lyanna on sight are infinitesimally small

Rhaegar is extremely famous, and Arthur Dayne is quite famous as well. They were at a giant tourney in the Riverlands not so long ago, so if Lyanna disappeared from near there it wouldn't be that odd for him to be recognized (Lyanna being crowned by him makes her more recognizable than she would have been otherwise).

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Only a tiny handful or high lords and ladies have ever seen them up close.

Lots of people attend tourneys, which are the sports events of their time. Many people would have seen Rhaegar. Royalty are supposed to be viewed, hence traditions like a royal progress. There was even a tradition of the king touching people to heal them.

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So unless Rhaegar was wearing his trademark armor and colors, no one should know who this is

He's got silver hair and purple eyes, unlike nearly every other Westerosi.

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Even his blond hair can be easily covered by a hood

Not blond, silver.

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So why is Rhaegar taking such great pains to make it so obvious that this is what he is doing?

Who knows what kind of pains he took?

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Why does he want the entire world to know that he is a kidnapper and a rapist?

How can you be so sure this was a desired outcome rather than a failure on his part to be discreet? People don't always succeed in whatever they set out to do! Just ask Arianne Martell.

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Rhaegar is also setting himself at odds with Aerys by stirring up this shitstorm and than spending months blissfully enjoying the delights of his captive while Aerys has to deal with the fallout.

If he cared about political fallout, he wouldn't have crowned Lyanna in the first place.

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And yes, Rhaegar was supposed to have been plotting with these very lords just a few short weeks ago because he needs their support to take the crown. Don't you think it's odd that he would suddenly betray them in such a brutal, depsicable fashion?

We know he crowned Lyanna despite that ruining any plotting that could occur at the tourney supposedly created for said plotting. So it seems perfectly in character for him.

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The question isn't why Rhaegar fought for Aerys, but why Aerys would want Rhaegar to fight for him.

Rhaegar fought Robert as hard as he could, to the death. Everyone failed to stop Robert, but Rhaegar at least wounded him and didn't retreat like Connington.

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Rhaegar has done nothing to earn this level of trust, and everything he has done since Harrenhal should destroy whatever lingering doubt Aerys might have had about his disloyalty.

No, as explained, Rhaegar screwing up any plotting at Harrenhal REDUCES Aerys' fears of him, and now Aerys views Robert as the much bigger threat.

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So sure, Aerys can trust Rhaegar to fight Robert because Aerys is holding his family. But then what happens afterward when Rhaegar returns to the capital as the conquering hero with an army at his back? Is he going to lock the gates to him? Keep his family in captivity?

He could, that would actually be more reasonable than many of the things Aerys did, like ordering Jaime to kill his own father while Aerys tried to burn the city.

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Aerys will be utterly powerless to prevent Rhaegar from clapping him in irons and taking his crown.

Not if he does what you just suggested.

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And as a side note: Rhaegar has just abandoned his wife and children to slake his lust on Lyanna, so how valuable would they be as hostages?

Lewyn Martell & the Dornish wouldn't sign on to any wacky hypothetical plan of Rhaegar's to sack KL while they were hostages.

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But for some reason, Hightower did not bring Rhaegar back himself but stayed at the ToJ, and Aerys seemingly had no problem with this.

We don't hear whether Aerys had a problem with it. But sending Rhaegar to fight Robert was more important than the whereabouts of the KG.

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Birth and rank have nothing to do with commanding an army.

Wrong, Stannis loses lots of ships at the Blackwater precisely because of commands resulting from birth & rank. And he's much more hostile to aristocrats relative to commoners than the typical noble! Medieval aristocrats are a warrior caste, and the officer corps of militaries has long been made up of the upper class. Loras Tyrell thinks he should have gotten command rather than Beric Dondarrion when going after the Mountain, and his expectations are normal (Beric wasn't chosen because he was known to be a better commander, but because it was less personal for him).

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By this logic, Joffrey should have been in charge at the Blackwater

Joffrey is young enough for a regency, so Cersei was Queen Regent.

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And if Mace Tyrell needs to sit at Storm's End, he doesn't need Tarley or Fossoway or Florent or all his other lords

Feudalism is decentralized. Mace tells his bannermen what to do.

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Getting rid of Robert was not the priority. That is one-dimensional thinking, and if Aerys was doing that he would not have been setting up the wildfire.

I don't understand this logic. Robert was the one who declared himself king and sent troops to seize KL. The wildfire plot was Aerys' final middle-finger as he lost everything.

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Also, Rhaegar as commander in no way guarantees victory over Robert, but a more seasoned leader and warrior like Hightower might

Neither guarantees anything, but Rhaegar had been a great knight and no one faulted how he fought at the Trident. Aerys had lost confidence in old men like his first Hand, which is why he decided put younger men like Connington in charge. It's not that much of a step to go from Rhaegar's most dedicated ally in KL to Rhaegar himself.

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Surviving the war with his power intact was the priority

That doesn't sound like the guy who was going to burn KL.

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Viserys was not across the Narrow Sea, he was on Dragonstone

Fair point.

[SFDanny]

On 11/22/2020 at 8:11 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Of all places to abscond with someone, why did Rhaegar Targaryen choose to bring Lyanna Stark to Dorne? He certainly had some nerve showing his face there after disgracing their princess twice over. 

The simple answer is that he knew it was a place he could hide without being betrayed to his father, to the Martells, and to the Starks and their allies. A remote tower that seldom has people passing by would seem an ideal place to hide, but that is only so if the local lord is sympathetic to Rhaegar's cause. My guess is this is Manwoody territory, and that we will find out that they were supporters of Rhaegar in his political struggles before the rebellion. I would also hazard a guess the Manwoodys had relationships with both Ser Arthur and Ashara Dayne. We will have to wait and see if all this speculation is true, but I'm pretty confident the answer lies in the political battles pre-rebellion and the alliances Rhaegar formed to fight them.

[SFDanny]

On 12/3/2020 at 9:13 AM, John Suburbs said:

Nowhere do we hear any story other than Rhaegar taking Lyanna by force, and this is the first thing that reaches Brandon. If Rhaegar either kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna in cognito, then the first word would be that Lyanna was missing, and this would be the story for days until Rhaegar announced it himself or one of his companions betrayed him and spilled the beans. If not, then he must have done it openly, identifying himself and her right then and there for all to see. Why would he do this?

 

Not exactly. Kidnapping or elopement are not the only two choices here. We have a third choice that is alluded to in Daenerys's reference to Rhaegar's "rescue" of his northern girl from an unwanted marriage like Dany is just undertaking in Meereen. The implication is that Lyanna is on her way to her own wedding. Perhaps a dual wedding alongside her brother in Riverrun just like Ned and Lord Jon had with the two Tully sisters during the war.  Only this was the Stark response to Harrenhal. Instead of backing off Lord Stark's "southron ambitions" the Lords involved doubled down and were hurrying to make the betrothals into marriages. Rhaegar "rescues" Lyanna from her marriage to Robert. 

Why would he do this? A myriad of reasons. The politics of the time shout out for the Targaryens to stop the alliances growing between the High Lords fo the Realm. But if that was the only reason then we would expect Rhaegar would take Lyanna to King's Landing. Just as Brandon mistakenly thinks he does.

No, the reasons Rhaegar does what he does in hiding Lyanna away from everyone, including his father, are more personal. He is the lovestruck prince Martin alludes to. But it is more than that, I think. I think he feels he owes Lyanna for using her to make his grand gesture at Harrenhal. His naming her his Queen of Love and Beauty before the assembled lords of Westeros was both a political statement as well as a personal one. He committed himself publicly by proclaiming his interest in Lyanna. By using her there to make his statement, he feels he owes her.

My take on this is that when they meet, by chance I think, and Lyanna tells him of her resistance to the marriage to Robert, he feels honor bound to risk all to help her. That and he desperately needs to have a future with this young woman. It's Rhaegar's Rubicon moment without Ceasar's army. He has to roll the dice and chance everything.

Daenerys's story tells us that what Rhaegar does is at "sword point" and that should tell us that Lyanna was not traveling alone. Which also shouldn't surprise us. If Lyanna had somehow escaped on her own, then swords would hardly be necessary for Rhaegar, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to subdue her. But if she is traveling with the expected escort of a High Born Lady on her way to a marriage in Riverrun, then swords would likely be necessary to get Lyanna away from the likely Stark or Arryn guards. 

The point being the actions betray the motives. Kidnapping means taking Lyanna to King's Landing. Elopement means an early marriage and an announcement to the world that it is a done deal. Neither of these things happen. Which tells me Dany's story has the right of it.