Catelyn wasn't that bad to Jon

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So a lot of people on this forum seem to consider Catelyn to be some evil step mom trope, but really think about it, she only lashes out to or about Jon 2 times, both being very special cases

- First after Bran's fall when she tells his it should have been him. Now that's awful, not making any excuses, but given the context it just seems as the worst Catelyn has in her coming out. And if that's the worst, well things look good for Cat

- The second time is about Robb's will, and there Catelyn actually has a point. Robb doesn't want to just free him of his vows, but also legitimize him. And if legitimized, she's right it would be a threat, bastard lines aren't that big a threat to anyone, cadet lines usually result in civil wars. She failed to see how precarious Robb's position was and she was probably wrong, but she did have a point about the dangers of creating a Stark cadet line.

Other then that there really isn't anything. So yeah, she clearly didn't love Jon, can't blame her of that, but she doesn't seem to have done anything about it, just leave him be. So how come the multitudes screaming bloody murder and child abuse?

[Daena the Defiant]

Indeed, she didn't object to or prevent him from being housed with his half-siblings in the family apartments, or given the same lordly education as Robb or Bran, and he was allowed to normally eat at the high table with the rest of them.   She just let her cadre of servitors and retainers care for his material needs. 

[Back in Black-Snow]

I wanted to say, "Shut the fuck up" here, but you are right. A lot of people's perception of Catlyn has been tainted by the Show.

Although... Plenty of threads about this, too.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So a lot of people on this forum seem to consider Catelyn to be some evil step mom trope, but really think about it, she only lashes out to or about Jon 2 times, both being very special cases

- First after Bran's fall when she tells his it should have been him. Now that's awful, not making any excuses, but given the context it just seems as the worst Catelyn has in her coming out. And if that's the worst, well things look good for Cat

- The second time is about Robb's will, and there Catelyn actually has a point. Robb doesn't want to just free him of his vows, but also legitimize him. And if legitimized, she's right it would be a threat, bastard lines aren't that big a threat to anyone, cadet lines usually result in civil wars. She failed to see how precarious Robb's position was and she was probably wrong, but she did have a point about the dangers of creating a Stark cadet line.

Other then that there really isn't anything. So yeah, she clearly didn't love Jon, can't blame her of that, but she doesn't seem to have done anything about it, just leave him be. So how come the multitudes screaming bloody murder and child abuse?

My own mother had a saying that a man was never so tall as when he stooped to touch a child's head.  Certainly by measure of the time Catelyn was almost innocuous in her treatment of Jon.   You dredged up 2 of the examples we read but ignored Jon's never ending feelings of otherness and inadequacy and not belonging instilled by the treatment he endured.  Jon's living arrangements were uncomfortable and Cat most certainly did take all of her feelings out on Jon.   Wonder if she would have been so bold to Ashara's face had she the opportunity?  

All you have to do is read Cat leaving her 6 year-old son in a coma after ignoring all her other children so she could pose by his bed.    Then a shiny thing comes along that is more interesting and requires only her to leave.  Even the self involved teenager begged his mother to pay attention to her 3 or 4 year old baby.  She goes and attempts to return to her paralyzed but finally awake 6 year-old and baby but finds the teenager in a much more exciting place. 

You forgot her insistence that a 15 year-old boy be sent to the Wall which is widely known as a penal order.  

Cat wasn't just a terrible step mother.   She was a terrible mother to all the children in her care.   With the possible exception of Sansa, whom she seemed genuinely fond of.   Shades of Cersei.  

[Makk]

This is what you see on page. There are 14 years of things you don't see on page, but it is strongly implied that there were many more times when Catelyn actively interfered with the children's relationships.

Quote

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

 

Quote

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

The person most aware of it would be Jon. Above are some examples. Also consider why he was so nervous to even go and see Bran in the first place.

Quote

 

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

"Mother." There was a sharpness in Robb's tone. "You forget. My father had four sons."

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

 

Quote

"Precedent," she said bitterly. "Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe."

"Jon would never harm a son of mine."

"No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?"

 

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared. Robb's own face was cold. "That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon."

Robb was aware of it and is sick of it. He had heard it many times while growing up but is older now. I imagine he would be embarrassed about some of the things he said or the way he treated Jon as they grew up despite being best friends.

I like all three characters involved, Robb, Catelyn, and Jon. I think they have a very, very interesting family dynamic and that is why I think Catelyn will be the one to resurrect Jon. Their story arc is not complete yet. Some of Catelyn's behavior, if not fully justified, is certainly understandable. But he behavior really did have an impact on Jon and his relationship with his siblings/cousins. I think she will be redeemed.

[Curled Finger]

18 minutes ago, Makk said:

I think like all three characters involved, Robb, Catelyn, and Jon. I think they have a very, very interesting family dynamic and that is why I think Catelyn will be the one to resurrect Jon. Their story arc is not complete yet. Some of Catelyn's behavior, if not fully justified, is certainly understandable. But he behavior really did have an impact on Jon and his relationship with his siblings/cousins. I think she will be redeemed.

What Catelyn does with that possible ressurection kiss and/or Robb's crown is much debated.  Jon is exiled to a life of hardship.  She cannot come back from that much less all the ugliness that led her to demand he go.  Fortunately, Jon is nowhere in her thoughts as she died.  All this wraith is concerned with is having her children alive and the Freys and Boltons dead.   Yes, I will eat your hat if LSH does end up having some sort of redemption in her dealings with Jon, but I really don't think he's on her radar anymore.   She swore and took oaths with Brienne, a truly loyal sword.   Doesn't seem to have made anything easier for her (Brienne) now, does it?   

[Daena the Defiant]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

You forgot her insistence that a 15 year-old boy be sent to the Wall which is widely known as a penal order.  

 

You invent her insistence that a 15 year-old boy be sent to the Wall which is widely known as a penal order.  

Didn't happen. Not in the text. 

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

 

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

 

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So a lot of people on this forum seem to consider Catelyn to be some evil step mom trope, but really think about it, she only lashes out to or about Jon 2 times, both being very special cases

- First after Bran's fall when she tells his it should have been him. Now that's awful, not making any excuses, but given the context it just seems as the worst Catelyn has in her coming out. And if that's the worst, well things look good for Cat

- The second time is about Robb's will, and there Catelyn actually has a point. Robb doesn't want to just free him of his vows, but also legitimize him. And if legitimized, she's right it would be a threat, bastard lines aren't that big a threat to anyone, cadet lines usually result in civil wars. She failed to see how precarious Robb's position was and she was probably wrong, but she did have a point about the dangers of creating a Stark cadet line.

Other then that there really isn't anything. So yeah, she clearly didn't love Jon, can't blame her of that, but she doesn't seem to have done anything about it, just leave him be. So how come the multitudes screaming bloody murder and child abuse?

" You will be doing him no favors leaving him here ." Catelyn's quote from a Game of Thrones . Catelyn intended to either drive him out which was her want or she was going to turn him into a servant . She poisoned the Tully's opinion about Jon . 

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

You invent her insistence that a 15 year-old boy be sent to the Wall which is widely known as a penal order.  

Didn't happen. Not in the text. 

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

 

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

 

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

 

"He and Robb are close," Ned said. "I had hoped …"

"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.   AGOT Catelyn 2

Ok, I went a little sideways with the memory.   The point was she would not grant Jon a home if Ned was not there.   The Wall comes later I know.  Both quotes make me wonder exactly where she thought Jon would go, not that it mattered to her. 

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

You invent her insistence that a 15 year-old boy be sent to the Wall which is widely known as a penal order.  

Didn't happen. Not in the text. 

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

 

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

 

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

Jon was also a foolish little boy and if I'm not mistake drunk at the time he made that request. Ned only sent Jon to the wall, because Cat insisted that Jon could not stay.

 

edit: @Curled Finger

Found the exact quote.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

" You will be doing him no favors leaving him here ." Catelyn's quote from a Game of Thrones . Catelyn intended to either drive him out which was her want or she was going to turn him into a servant . She poisoned the Tully's opinion about Jon . 

Let's hope she only thinks she poisoned the Tullys against Jon.   I have a feeling he will soon need all the support he can get.  

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

First after Bran's fall when she tells his it should have been him.

See, that doesnt faze me much. Cruel bitches are cruel. But words are wind, let the psycho rant. 

But trying to stop a child saying goodbye to his dying brother is beyond unforgivable 

.

“I came to see Bran,” Jon said. “To say good-bye.”

Her face did not change. Her long auburn hair was dull and tangled. She looked as though she had aged twenty years. “You’ve said it. Now go away.”

Part of him wanted only to flee, but he knew that if he did he might never see Bran again. He took a nervous step into the room. “Please,” he said.

Something cold moved in her eyes. “I told you to leave,” she said. “We don’t want you here.”

Once that would have sent him running. Once that might even have made him cry. Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark. “He’s my brother,” he said.

“Shall I call the guards?”

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

She was a terrible mother to all the children in her care.   With the possible exception of Sansa,

.

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey … Joffrey is …"

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne.

.

Fuck Catelyns mothering 

 

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

Currying Cat's favor 

[Lord Lannister]

As the facts were presented to her, Catelyn would have legitimate reason to take issue with her husband over Jon. Instead she's sappily affectionate towards him despite it and takes her anger out on a child. 

Catelyn Stark is a moral coward.

[frenin]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 You dredged up 2 of the examples we read but ignored Jon's never ending feelings of otherness and inadequacy and not belonging instilled by the treatment he endured. 

Sure, but Jon's feelings don't tell the whole story, at the end of the day Jon needed and longed a mother and Cat was the opposite of that,   that's going to sting.

 

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

All you have to do is read Cat leaving her 6 year-old son in a coma after ignoring all her other children so she could pose by his bed.

What part of state of grief you don't understand??

 

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Then a shiny thing comes along that is more interesting and requires only her to leave. 

That's a nice way to put it.

 

 

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You forgot her insistence that a 15 year-old boy be sent to the Wall which is widely known as a penal order.  

What?? Seriously what??

 

Quote

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.” Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?” Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell. Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.”

 

That and the fact that northeners do not see the Wall as a penal colony.

 

 

15 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Cat wasn't just a terrible step mother.   She was a terrible mother to all the children in her care.   With the possible exception of Sansa, whom she seemed genuinely fond of.   Shades of Cersei.  

... Anyway.

 

 

14 hours ago, Makk said:

This is what you see on page. There are 14 years of things you don't see on page, but it is strongly implied that there were many more times when Catelyn actively interfered with the children's relationships.

It's not implied, in fact logic should tell you otherwise,  Jon and his siblings would simply not have that bond they share if their mother was actively poisoning their relationship.

Even if Cat wanted to do it, she certainly could not do it. Ned would have never allowed it.

 

Quote

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

 

Quote

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

 

Tell me,  where's the "active interference"??

 

 

14 hours ago, Makk said:

Also consider why he was so nervous to even go and see Bran in the first place.

He is intimidated by Cat, i think that's made fairly clear in the books.

 

 

14 hours ago, Makk said:

I imagine he would be embarrassed about some of the things he said or the way he treated Jon as they grew up despite being best friends.

That's never mentioned or hinted?? Yep.

 

 

13 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Catelyn intended to either drive him out which was her want or she was going to turn him into a servant .

Those are the only options?? Or can't it be that Jon simply would not be at all confortable??

 

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The point was she would not grant Jon a home if Ned was not there.

In all the cases, Ned has the finall say, if Ned decides Jon to stay he would. Ned simply would not let him under Cat knowing she's completely opposed to the idea.

 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But trying to stop a child saying goodbye to his dying brother is beyond unforgivable 

Bran wasn't dying then. 

 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey … Joffrey is …"

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne.

.

Fuck Catelyns mothering 

Fuck all mothering because every mother would want to marry their daughters to the crown prince. Or are you implying that Ca shoud know that Joffrey was a piece of shit after just knowing him??

 

 

[sifth]

I honestly think Cat falls into the category of "do you consider less bad to be good", I personally don't consider it to be good and if your defense is "well at least she wasn't Cercie" then you've already lost me. There are other ways to be a shitty person, that don't involve either murdering a child or threatening to do so and yes, treating someone like an outsider and constantly reminding them that their life will never amount to anything, is a pretty shitty thing to do.

Let's also be real, the whole "there is great honor in serving the Night's Watch" is just done for good PR. Most of the people on The Wall are former criminals and pretty shitty people all around; even Maester Aemon admitted, there are too many criminals in the watch and not enough honorable men. Cat wanted Jon on The Wall, because it would essentially make him a slave to the realm and pretty much out of her life for good, not because she in anyway cared about his well being; you don't hear about any members of the Tully's "thinking there is great honor in the Night's Watch", do you, lol

We're also told that Cat was pretty shitty to Theon as well, but in much fewer details. We're told that Ned at least tried, even though Theon was never able to fully trust him as a father figure. Robb however was said to be awesome and loved both Jon and Theon as brothers; you can sort of see why the guys men loved him so much they made him a king.

[Damsel in Distress]

Not for someone of her time.  She was not the evil stepmother.  We have seen instances of cruelty from Catelyn and that should place her in the grey category.  Verbal abuse of the boy was not necessary.  It was mean of her to abuse him so.  But all of that does not make Catelyn deserving of the hate from the readership.

[Nevets]

Why does everyone seem to think Catelyn should be some kind of saint?  From her standpoint, Jon is an interloper foisted upon her by an unfaithful husband.  So of course she isn't going to be particularly nice to him, nor do I think she is obliged to be.  But neither is she especially mean.  She basically ignores him.  She does snap at Jon when he visits Bran, but I attribute that to emotional stress,  and when Jon insisted on visiting, she didn't stop him.

While she was pleased with Jon's decision to join the Nights Watch, she had nothing to do with it.  And for nobility, the NW isn't all that bad, and is often regarded with respect.   

If the Nights Watch hadn't been available, I have no doubt Ned could have found Jon a place, even on short notice.  There would probably be vassals fighting for the opportunity to take in Ned's well-educated, well-known bastard son, so no likely problems there.

If the worst thing you can accuse Catelyn of is her treatment of Jon, then I would say that makes her a pretty good person, especially by ASOIAF standards.  I sometimes have trouble with her judgement (releasing Jaime?  Really?), but I think morally and ethically she is sound, and she has passed that on to her own children, who are all solid citizens, if a bit flawed at times, like everybody else in the series.

[SeanF]

I rather miss the threads we used to have about how Catelyn was a complete monster, for her treatment of Jon. 

I can remember reading posts that Catelyn tortured/molested Jon.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Sure, but Jon's feelings don't tell the whole story, at the end of the day Jon needed and longed a mother and Cat was the opposite of that,   that's going to sting.

What part of state of grief you don't understand??

That's a nice way to put it.

What?? Seriously what??

That and the fact that northeners do not see the Wall as a penal colony.

... Anyway.

 

Easy, Bud.  As a mother and step mother I believe I am in a position to judge Catelyn and her actions.  I wanted to like Catelyn because she's obviously written as a sympathetic character.  The deal breaker is in her leaving Bran and Rickon.   Her treatment of Jon was very bad as weighed in my experience with step children.  It isn't as though Jon was a bad or even a disrespectful boy.   Her missteps and judgements are all quite human in a particularly selfish way.   You ask what state of grief I am unable to understand.  While shock and fear and worry and horror at the unknown are certainly at play with Cat during Bran's unconsciousness this is not grief.   Grief is put aside for your dead, not living.    Another saying my mother was fond of saying is "where there is life there is hope."  You may consider comatose and paralyzed reasons for grief.   I would cling to whatever hope I could find in this.  I do not understand the singular focus on one sick child when there is a baby to care for.   Robb's pleading for his mother to look after Rickon is heartbreaking.  While worry for Bran may have been all Cat could muster she left him on a fool's mission that someone else could have seen to.  She thinks about returning yet stays in the midst of Robb's military intrigue.  There is the disconnect.  

Cat's destiny is sealed whether she stays or goes and she meets a horrific end that far outweighs her actions.  While it seems a futile thing to have stayed, at the very least her 2 youngest children would have had the comfort of their mother.  In my understanding Catelyn is a selfish woman who prefers the excitement of politics to her children.    

In that I am normally pretty good natured about most things in this place, I will remind you that I have already stated my error regarding Cat wanting Jon to go to the Wall.  I have been appropriately corrected and offered quotes closely related.  She did not want Jon to stay at Winterfell not go to the Wall.  You are 100% correct in stating that northerners did not see the Wall as a penal colony.   It seems this is a thing we know as readers better than characters in story.  It is no doubt my disgust and bafflement with the manner in which Catelyn treats a child she believes to be her husband's son that blurs the lines of precise recall in this.