Catelyn wasn't that bad to Jon

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Easy, Bud.  As a mother and step mother I believe I am in a position to judge Catelyn and her actions.  I wanted to like Catelyn because she's obviously written as a sympathetic character.  The deal breaker is in her leaving Bran and Rickon.   Her treatment of Jon was very bad as weighed in my experience with step children.  It isn't as though Jon was a bad or even a disrespectful boy.   Her missteps and judgements are all quite human in a particularly selfish way.   You ask what state of grief I am unable to understand.  While shock and fear and worry and horror at the unknown are certainly at play with Cat during Bran's unconsciousness this is not grief.   Grief is put aside for your dead, not living.    Another saying my mother was fond of saying is "where there is life there is hope."  You may consider comatose and paralyzed reasons for grief.   I would cling to whatever hope I could find in this.  I do not understand the singular focus on one sick child when there is a baby to care for.   Robb's pleading for his mother to look after Rickon is heartbreaking.  While worry for Bran may have been all Cat could muster she left him on a fool's mission that someone else could have seen to.  She thinks about returning yet stays in the midst of Robb's military intrigue.  There is the disconnect.  

Cat's destiny is sealed whether she stays or goes and she meets a horrific end that far outweighs her actions.  While it seems a futile thing to have stayed, at the very least her 2 youngest children would have had the comfort of their mother.  In my understanding Catelyn is a selfish woman who prefers the excitement of politics to her children.    

In that I am normally pretty good natured about most things in this place, I will remind you that I have already stated my error regarding Cat wanting Jon to go to the Wall.  I have been appropriately corrected and offered quotes closely related.  She did not want Jon to stay at Winterfell not go to the Wall.  You are 100% correct in stating that northerners did not see the Wall as a penal colony.   It seems this is a thing we know as readers better than characters in story.  It is no doubt my disgust and bafflement with the manner in which Catelyn treats a child she believes to be her husband's son that blurs the lines of precise recall in this.   

She might have been screwed either way. If she went back north to Winterfell to be with Bran and Rickon she'd still have to contend with Theon and later Ramsay. *shudder*

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

She might have been screwed either way. If she went back north to Winterfell to be with Bran and Rickon she'd still have to contend with Theon and later Ramsay. *shudder*

Maybe I did a bad job explaining that.  She was likely screwed either way.  I cannot help but wonder if Cat's presence at Winterfell when Theon arrives might have curtailed Theon's plan.   Would she have allowed men to leave Winterfell depleting the defense of her home?  Somehow I think not, but we can't know because this wasn't written for us.  Cat dying at the Red Wedding was not Martin's original idea.  Still, in the end as written, her death was quite bad enough.   I don't know that Theon and/or Ramsay would have been worse to read.   What we have as well as possibilities are all pretty shudder worthy.  

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Maybe I did a bad job explaining that.  She was likely screwed either way.  I cannot help but wonder if Cat's presence at Winterfell when Theon arrives might have curtailed Theon's plan.   Would she have allowed men to leave Winterfell depleting the defense of her home?  Somehow I think not, but we can't know because this wasn't written for us.  Cat dying at the Red Wedding was not Martin's original idea.  Still, in the end as written, her death was quite bad enough.   I don't know that Theon and/or Ramsay would have been worse to read.   What we have as well as possibilities are all pretty shudder worthy.  

When did Martin decide to kill off Catelyn? To this day I'm not really sure what Lady Stoneheart's purpose is other than a He Who Fights Monsters-character, to show how far someone can fall for the sake of vengeance.

As to whether or not Theon and/or Ramsay would be worse, still not sure on that, though it would most likely be bad whatever happens, given Ramsay's reputation for needless torture.

[Curled Finger]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

When did Martin decide to kill off Catelyn? To this day I'm not really sure what Lady Stoneheart's purpose is other than a He Who Fights Monsters-character, to show how far someone can fall for the sake of vengeance.

As to whether or not Theon and/or Ramsay would be worse, still not sure on that, though it would most likely be bad whatever happens, given Ramsay's reputation for needless torture.

Somewhere in the composition of AGOT.  That outline Martin submitted in proposal for the series had Cat going either to the Wall or farther north.  That alone makes it obvious that Catelyn was most definitely screwed.   Theon and Ramsay actually crossed my mind as I composed my reply to @frenin.  That's when it occurred to me that perhaps Cat would not have been so magnanimous in sending forces away from Winterfell.  Lady Stoneheart as a monster fighter is an interesting concept though I see her as much more a monster herself.  Your "to show how far someone can fall for the sake of vengeance" may be exactly what purpose she serves.  I am hoping that her final death will explain her existence in some way.   That's LSH, not Cat for they are not the same creature.  

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

As a mother and step mother I believe I am in a position to judge Catelyn and her actions. 

Everyone is in a position to judge Catelyn and her actions, being mother yourselt doesn't mean you know better of the actions of a fictional person.

No, i don't like special pleadings.

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The deal breaker is in her leaving Bran and Rickon. 

That's completely fine,  it's not a deal breaker as she did  not go on a vacation.

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 Her treatment of Jon was very bad as weighed in my experience with step children. 

Because... The very fact that you believe Jon her stepson already makes a couple of things clear.

Cat had no obligation towards Jon.

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It isn't as though Jon was a bad or even a disrespectful boy.

It isn't as though any of that mattered or was the problem.

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 You ask what state of grief I am unable to understand.  While shock and fear and worry and horror at the unknown are certainly at play with Cat during Bran's unconsciousness this is not grief. 

I'm not english, but as  far as i can tell you can still feel grief for the living,  i don't know how you use the word.

 

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Another saying my mother was fond of saying is "where there is life there is hope."  You may consider comatose and paralyzed reasons for grief.   I would cling to whatever hope I could find in this.  I do not understand the singular focus on one sick child when there is a baby to care for.   Robb's pleading for his mother to look after Rickon is heartbreaking. 

That's the point?? You're not trying to judge Cat by her merits, you're saying that you wouldn't do that... therefore it's bad.

That you woulld cling to whatever hope you could find it's certainly encouraging... yet inmaterial to the topic at hand,  your psyche is not the standard for humanity, or fiction.

 

 

Quote

While worry for Bran may have been all Cat could muster she left him on a fool's mission that someone else could have seen to.  She thinks about returning yet stays in the midst of Robb's military intrigue.  There is the disconnect.  

I would certainly not say that a plot against your family is a fool's mission, certainly not if it involves the King's in laws ... nor something you trust anyone,  there is areason Cat travels incognito.

She stays with Robb because... well, Robb is fighting a war that would and decide the fate of their House. There is no disconnect, the context has changed and so have the stakes.

 

 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Cat's destiny is sealed whether she stays or goes and she meets a horrific end that far outweighs her actions.  While it seems a futile thing to have stayed, at the very least her 2 youngest children would have had the comfort of their mother.  In my understanding Catelyn is a selfish woman who prefers the excitement of politics to her children.    

Or... she simply believes that Robb is the key for their family to get out of that mess, 

 

Quote

Fate drives me south and south again, Catelyn thought as she sipped the astringent tea, when it is north I should be going, north to home. She had written to Bran and Rickon, that last night at Riverrun. I do not forget you, my sweet ones, you must believe that. It is only that your brother needs me more.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

Everyone is in a position to judge Catelyn and her actions, being mother yourselt doesn't mean you know better of the actions of a fictional person.

No, i don't like special pleadings.

That's completely fine,  it's not a deal breaker as she did  not go on a vacation.

Because... The very fact that you believe Jon her stepson already makes a couple of things clear.

Cat had no obligation towards Jon.

It isn't as though any of that mattered or was the problem.

I'm not english, but as  far as i can tell you can still feel grief for the living,  i don't know how you use the word.

That's the point?? You're not trying to judge Cat by her merits, you're saying that you wouldn't do that... therefore it's bad.

That you woulld cling to whatever hope you could find it's certainly encouraging... yet inmaterial to the topic at hand,  your psyche is not the standard for humanity, or fiction.

I would not certainly not say that a plot against your family is a fool's mission, certainly not if it involves the King's in laws ... nor something you trust anyone,  there is areason Cat travels incognito.

She stays with Robb because... well, Robb is fighting a war that would and decide the fate of their House. There is no disconnect, the context has changed and so have the stakes.

Or... she simply believes that Robb is the key for their family to get out of that mess, 

If not to weigh the topic against one's own values I see no point in further discussion.   I appreciate if not understand your position in this and respect your right to your opinions.        

[Hugorfonics]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Bran wasn't dying then. 

 

Fuck all mothering because every mother would want to marry their daughters to the crown prince. Or are you implying that Ca shoud know that Joffrey was a piece of shit after just knowing him??

 

 

Yea he was lol. 

Ned implied that they knew. And not all mothers pimp out their 11 year old

.

Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. "I like it no more than you do," Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept."

"Coin?" her mother had screamed. "He is your son. What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?"

.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady Stoneheart as a monster fighter is an interesting concept though I see her as much more a monster herself.  Your "to show how far someone can fall for the sake of vengeance" may be exactly what purpose she serves.  I am hoping that her final death will explain her existence in some way.   That's LSH, not Cat for they are not the same creature.  

I really disagree here. The hooded outlaw of the Riverlands is our little Cat. (So I am a Cat fan, despite her poor parental skills). 

So, first, I dont think shes a monster. Shes running an orphanage and spreading her religion and welfare to the RL, so thats all good stuff.

But she does look like a monster, but not in the way Ani or Palpatine became one. Their hate and vengeance made em ugly, Cats face was already ripped before she tied her first knot.

[SeanF]

What’s being overlooked is that a noble upbringing in a medieval society is very different to a modern upbringing in nuclear family.

Children are mostly brought up by tutors, servants, masters at arms.  The odd thing about the Stark children is that they have not been sent out as squires, pages, ladies’ companions to other noble families.

Until very recently, upper class English children were sent off to boarding schools, and developed far closer bonds with other boys and girls than with their parents.

Catelyn’s chilliness towards Jon is nothing strange in an upper class family.

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea he was lol. 

No, he wasn't.

 

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ned implied that they knew.

We know for a fact he didn't. Even after the Lady incident, Ned merely dislikes the kid.

Quote

[...] My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?” “He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?”

Nor Joffrey behaved like he would during the trip. 

 

39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And not all mothers pimp out their 11 year old

.

Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. "I like it no more than you do," Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept."

"Coin?" her mother had screamed. "He is your son. What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?"

 

"The princely sort," Doran Martell had answered.

Westerosi mothers and fathers do pimp out their 11 year old if needed be, I very much doubt the Norvoshi are that different on that regard. btw.

This a medieval world, pimp out your children was norm. I don't really understand the outrage, it's not as if Sansa was expected to be married right away.

[Hugorfonics]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, he wasn't.

"Bran," he said, "I'm sorry I didn't come before. I was afraid." He could feel the tears rolling down his cheeks. Jon no longer cared. "Don't die, Bran. Please. We're all waiting for you to wake up. Me and Robb and the girls, everyone …"

.

Sounds like hes dying.

And fucks the difference? What kinda person keeps a child away from his brother who wants to say good bye?

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Even after the Lady incident, Ned merely dislikes the kid.

Lies to himself. Another bad parent

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

This a medieval world, pimp out your children was norm

So was bad parenting

 .

"We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo's army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will." He smiled at her. "I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army.

.

Bad guardians too

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bran," he said, "I'm sorry I didn't come before. I was afraid." He could feel the tears rolling down his cheeks. Jon no longer cared. "Don't die, Bran. Please. We're all waiting for you to wake up. Me and Robb and the girls, everyone …"

.

Sounds like hes dying.

Sounds like he's in a coma and they don't know when or if he's going to wake up.

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And fucks the difference? What kinda person keeps a child away from his brother who wants to say good bye?

I think you want me say... Lucifer??

 

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lies to himself. Another bad parent

Why would he lie to himself??

 

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So was bad parenting

Are we arguing whether they are good or bad parents for our standards??

Martin has said that Ned's a great parent in the books but no modern parent would take his 7yo to an execution. This a medieval world. Bethrothals are norm.

 

9 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo's army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will." He smiled at her. "I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army.

.

Bad guardians too

Well, that's indeed fucked up. But that's simply because Viserys was crazy. I think there's a gap between bethrothing, NOT MARRYING, a kid with stating that you would let them being raped by horses as long as it gets you to power.

 

[The Wolves]

On 11/22/2020 at 1:04 PM, Daena the Defiant said:

Indeed, she didn't object to or prevent him from being housed with his half-siblings in the family apartments, or given the same lordly education as Robb or Bran, and he was allowed to normally eat at the high table with the rest of them.   She just let her cadre of servitors and retainers care for his material needs. 

She only couldn’t do that because Ned wouldn’t have allowed it. 

[Hugorfonics]

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sounds like he's in a coma and they don't know when or if he's going to wake up.

Dude almost died, most thought he would. Thats dying

.

“Bran,” Jon breathed, scrambling to his feet. “Something’s happened to Bran.”

Tyrion Lannister laid a hand on his arm. “Jon,” he said. “I am truly sorry.”

.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think you want me say... Lucifer??

Yea that works. Or Catelyn

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would he lie to himself??

Because hes giving his fucking baby to Joffrey

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Are we arguing whether they are good or bad parents for our standards??

Of course

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

Martin has said that Ned's a great parent in the books

I dont care what GRRMs standards area

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

This a medieval world.

A fake medieval world

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, that's indeed fucked up. But that's simply because Viserys was crazy. I think there's a gap between bethrothing, NOT MARRYING, a kid with stating that you would let them being raped by horses as long as it gets you to power.

Nah, shits all relatively the same. Might as well leave em at Crasters 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude almost died, most thought he would. Thats dying

.

“Bran,” Jon breathed, scrambling to his feet. “Something’s happened to Bran.”

Tyrion Lannister laid a hand on his arm. “Jon,” he said. “I am truly sorry.”

You're arguing in so much bad faith...

Something's (very bad) happened to Bran=/ Bran's dying. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea that works. Or Catelyn

I see, what are the Great Masters in comparison, kittens the lot of them. But okey, it's fine if you believe that, agree to disagree.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because hes giving his fucking baby to Joffrey

He doesn't think nor knows what Joffrey is. Do you always use presentism when arguing??  

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course

But that's simply presentism, there's little to nothing good by our standards in ASOIAF.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont care what GRRMs standards area

Well, i feel like you should at least have then in consideration.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude almost died, most thought he would. Thats dying

.

“Bran,” Jon breathed, scrambling to his feet. “Something’s happened to Bran.”

Tyrion Lannister laid a hand on his arm. “Jon,” he said. “I am truly sorry.”

Sure, it has dragons and zombies, it's inspired in the real medieval world however.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nah, shits all relatively the same. Might as well leave em at Crasters 

It's not relatively  the same, it's simply stupid to argue than bethrothing your childen is the same as wanting horses to rape them.

There's something very disturbing and arrogant with that believe.

 

@sifth

 

Quote

 treating someone like an outsider and constantly reminding them that their life will never amount to anything, is a pretty shitty thing to do.

Cat did not treat him like an outsider, she avoided him, was distant and was cold with him. 

When did Cat remind Jon that his life would never amount to nothing?? 

 

Quote

Let's also be real, the whole "there is great honor in serving the Night's Watch" is just done for good PR. Most of the people on The Wall are former criminals and pretty shitty people all around; even Maester Aemon admitted, there are too many criminals in the watch and not enough honorable men. 

Yet, there are still nobles who believe it, Ned among them. Yohn Royce took his son there too.

 

 

Quote

 Cat wanted Jon on The Wall, because it would essentially make him a slave to the realm and pretty much out of her life for good, not because she in anyway cared about his well being; you don't hear about any members of the Tully's "thinking there is great honor in the Night's Watch", do you, lol

You do  hear northeners saying it, not Cat even pronounced herself in that.

 

 

Quote

We're also told that Cat was pretty shitty to Theon as well, but in much fewer details. We're told that Ned at least tried, even though Theon was never able to fully trust him as a father figure. Robb however was said to be awesome and loved both Jon and Theon as brothers; you can sort of see why the guys men loved him so much they made him a king.

Yes, she was cold and distant with Theon. And yes, he was awesome to Theon and he betrayed him regardless.

 

Quote

They were marrying their daughter to the family they suspected murdered the former hand of the king.

They didn't suspect the Baratheons had murdered the former hand of the King. The Lannisters are not the royal house, the Baratheons are. Joffrey is not officially a Lannister, he died a Baratheon.

Sansa's bethrothal has little to do with it.

 

Quote

They basically put her in mortal danger by bringing her to Kings landing. Ned should have insisted Sansa stay at home until her flowering or something like that. 

Why?? They did not expect Ned to be beheaded for treason.

 

Quote

Marrying out your daughter is one thing, marrying her to a potential murderer is a whole other can of worms.

Did they think Joffrey had killed Jon Arryn??

[sifth]

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're arguing in so much bad faith...

Something's (very bad) happened to Bran=/ Bran's dying. 

 

 

 

I see, what are the Great Masters in comparison, kittens the lot of them.

 

 

 

He doesn't think nor knows what Joffrey is. Do you always use presentism when arguing??  

 

 

But that's simply presentism, there's little to nothing good by our standards in ASOIAF.

 

 

Well, i feel like you should at least have then in consideration.

 

 

 

Sure, it has dragons and zombies, it's inspired in the real medieval world however.

 

It's not relatively  the same, it's simply stupid to argue than bethrothing your childen is the same as wanting horses to rape them.

There's something very disturbing and arrogant with that believe.

They were marrying their daughter to the family they suspected murdered the former hand of the king. They basically put her in mortal danger by bringing her to Kings Landing. Ned should have insisted Sansa stay at home until her flowering or something like that. 
 

Marrying out your daughter is one thing, marrying her to  potential murderers is a whole other can of worms. 

[Hugorfonics]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're arguing in so much bad faith..

We're discussing semantics. Never fun. 

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

I see, what are the Great Masters in comparison, kittens the lot of them.

No theyre fucking evil ass slavers lol. That doesnt excuse Cats behavior

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

He doesn't think nor knows what Joffrey is.

Yea he does

.

"Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

"I hate them," Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. "The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied, it wasn't the way he said. I hate Sansa too. She did remember, she just lied so Joffrey would like her."

"We all lie," her father said.

.

Or he should if he didnt turn his blind eye to Sansas future

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

But that's simply presentism

Its the only way to dissect fiction

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

there's little to nothing good by our standards in ASOIAF.

Its a sad story. But nah theres nice parts. Ned hugging Arya, Jon reading Brans awake, normal human stuff.

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, i feel like you should at least have then in consideration.

If GRRM wants to convince me Sansa had good parents he should edit his work

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sure, it has dragons and zombies, it's inspired in the real medieval world however

I mean its got knights and stuff, but its not our world

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not relatively  the same, it's simply stupid to argue than bethrothing your childen is the same as wanting horses to rape them.

There's something very disturbing and arrogant with that believe.

Viserys didnt want horses to rape Dany, like Craster probably didnt want to send out his sons. But they really didnt want the alternative 

[frenin]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No theyre fucking evil ass slavers lol. That doesnt excuse Cats behavior

It doesn't make her the worst either, but again, agree to disagree.

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea he does

.

"Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

"I hate them," Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. "The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied, it wasn't the way he said. I hate Sansa too. She did remember, she just lied so Joffrey would like her."

"We all lie," her father said.

.

Or he should if he didnt turn his blind eye to Sansas future

... Can you tell me where it's pointed that he knew?? 

You're using hindsight to get your way, it's not working.

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its the only way to dissect fiction

It really isn't. 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its a sad story. But nah theres nice parts. Ned hugging Arya, Jon reading Brans awake, normal human stuff.

Reread what i said. Little to no...

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If GRRM wants to convince me Sansa had good parents he should edit his work

Maybe you should not expect medieval parents to be like your average occidental one?? 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea he does

.

"Grieve for your friend, but never blame yourself. You did not kill the butcher's boy. That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

"I hate them," Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. "The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied, it wasn't the way he said. I hate Sansa too. She did remember, she just lied so Joffrey would like her."

"We all lie," her father said.

.

Or he should if he didnt turn his blind eye to Sansas future

At this point your arguing with yoursef...

 

 

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Viserys didnt want horses to rape Dany, like Craster probably didnt want to send out his sons. But they really didnt want the alternative 

Aha, and you can tell how it's different or...

 

@sifth

Quote

When she told Robb to say to Jon that he could never have Winterfell.

She did not do that.

She told Robb that Jon was a bastard and thus he'd never have Winterfell. At no point she told Robb to say that to Jon.

 

Quote

When she helped get Jon sent to The Wall,

She did not do that.

 

 

Quote

she constantly reminded Sansa that he was only her half brother.

Never happened.

 

 

Quote

I mean heck we have both Jon and Theon stating that Cat pretty much treated the both of them as outsiders and not very kindly at all.

Sure, she certainly was cold and did not treat them as sons. 

 

Quote

Heck Robb was able to pick on this right away when Jon last met him and again when Robb wanted to make Jon his heir.

That she did not like nor trust Jon?? Hardly a secret, that's not what you're saying however.

 

Quote

 She always hated and feared the threat that Jon having kids would be to her own family, despite the fact that Jon showed her sons and daughters nothing, but kindness and love.

And the fact that Jon secretly coveted Winterfell.

 

Quote

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.
He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

Westeros's history is full with bad blood between rival brothers, the Blackfyre died out some 40 years ago.  Saying that Jon would never ever be a threat is a toast to the sun and even then, there's no say on how Jon's children would turn out.

[sifth]

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

@sifth

 

Cat did not treat him like an outsider, she avoided him, was distant and was cold with him. 

When did Cat remind Jon that his life would never amount to nothing?? 

 

 

When she told Robb to say to Jon that he could never have Winterfell. When she helped get Jon sent to The Wall, when she constantly reminded Sansa that he was only her half brother. I mean heck we have both Jon and Theon stating that Cat pretty much treated the both of them as outsiders and not very kindly at all. Heck Robb was able to pick on this right away when Jon last met him and again when Robb wanted to make Jon his heir. She always hated and feared the threat that Jon having kids would be to her own family, despite the fact that Jon showed her sons and daughters nothing, but kindness and love. The lady just couldn't get over the fact that her husband might have loved someone else and took it out on the boy, in place of her husband. Best thing I can say about her is she wasn't a crazy person like Cercie, but as said before, less bad doesn't make someone good.

I mean heck, the lady made a big deal over Jon just wanting to say "good bye" to his little brother, who could potentially be on deaths doorstep and then basically said "I wish it was you". If you want to use the whole "mothers grief" excuse, that's find, but I've been through similar shit that she has and never wished death on an innocent person while it was happening, so yea, I do view it as pretty f'd up.

[Mystical]

Catelyn, Catelyn, Catelyn.

Why is she the one getting all the shit thrown at her? How about the person who is at fault for putting both Cat and Jon in this position in the first place? His name is Ned Stark. Ned decided to wave off the way things are done by bringing Jon home. Cat is well aware of married men fathering bastards and she wouldn't care if Ned had any, so long as he didn't bring them home. But Cat has absolutely no power in this sexist society, so what Ned says or does, goes. Ned could have easily send Jon with Howland Reed. Not only would that have been in accordance with how things were done but Howland knows the story, so the secret is safe. On top of that, where else is safer than Howland's castle? No one can find the damn thing and if anyone tried the crannogmen would make quick corpses of them.

I also object to the constant mentions here of Cat being Jon's step-mom, she is not. Jon would have needed to be born by Ned's previous legal wife who died and then Ned remarried (to Cat) and brought his children from the first marriage into the new one for Cat to be considered Jon's step-mom.

I also can't help that gender tropes filter in here. There are abusive scumbag parents in this story but they hardly get any vitriol thrown at them for that reason the way Cat does. Is it because as a woman she is supposed to be a perfect saint of a maternal figure even to children who are not hers? Tywin's treatment of Cercei and especially Tyrion is a million times worse. And the less said about the likes of Randyll Tarly or Craster or any other abusive father the better. But you don't see them get raked over the coals for that as constantly and often as Cat. Because the expectations on fathers and how much they can screw up or abuse are different? Hell, I have major bones to pick with Ned Stark himself and all the ways he failed as a father but hardly anyone ever rakes him over the coals because the guy is practically untouchable in the fandom.

[Hugorfonics]

 

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

It doesn't make her the worst either, but again, agree to disagree.

I dont think that. I rather like Cat. 

She does come through for Sansa, its not like Jaime walked out.  Shes smart and brave and has a sense of sass to her that I find amusing. And I think shes just doing a bang up job now lol

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

... Can you tell me where it's pointed that he knew?? 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I hate them," Arya confided, red-faced, sniffling. "The Hound and the queen and the king and Prince Joffrey. I hate all of them. Joffrey lied

He knew

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

It really isn't. 

We going down the rabbit hole? Ok, watch your step.

So lets excuse noble westerosi parenting, even if we see the stress it causes poor Quentyn to an early grave, what else are we excusing? Ironborn thralldom? Ghiscari auctions?

The Starks of old skinchanged. As in literally adapting new skin and becoming a new life. The way Ramsay is able to pervert the cornerstones of asoiaf is frankly beautiful... Until you take a step back and realize its fucking not

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

Reread what i said. Little to no...

Yea but my point is the good parts are the good parts in every humans life, similarly I feel way sadder when Jons going through one of the hardest times of a humans life, child or not, and is ordered to "go away", then I do for some ice zombies

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

Maybe you should not expect medieval parents to be like your average occidental one?? 

Westerosi medieval parents. 

And no, theyre fucking parents. Theyre Theons mom crying herself to night theyre Dorans wife separating from the love of her life. Theyre Ned staring up at Sansa while Janos kicks him to the chopping block.

58 minutes ago, frenin said:

Aha, and you can tell how it's different or...

Yea, I can tell. Do you see the similarities?