Weirdest crackpot about Jon's parentage

[Buried Treasure]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Baloney.  It became the most "popular" theory because of fan fiction that borders on high harlequin romance.

Really not the case. 

Fan fiction is a much bigger part of the fandom now, but way back in the day the community was much smaller. Before the explosion in popularity that comes with being a hit TV show, George's wishes not to have fanfic of his work was taken much more seriously; because he had spent so long as only a moderately successful author, and such writers have historically had serious concerns about  unauthorised fic losing them rights to the characters that are their livelihood.

As for fan-fiction masquerading as theories, that is a phenomenon I have noticed on the forums in the past few years, but was not always the case. There used to be a much clearer distinction between text-based speculation & theories (people would actually reread the books and quote examples!) versus wild speculation - which was acknowledged as crackpot because it would clearly hold no water! 

When I joined the community (way back on the old boards) R+L=J was already the most preferred theory, but it only had a slight edge. There were still many years of genuine good-faith discussions, based on what's in the text of the books, before it became almost universally accepted as most likely correct.

On 11/23/2020 at 8:11 PM, HerblYY said:

That is the only version I would be fine with along with RLJ. However, I (personally) am 100% about RL being J(yaknow, foreshadowing of 5 books). But then there's the question of Ashara's stillborn baby. Ugh, it would be nice to already have TWOW.

If you want an explanation for Ashara's stillborn you can join me in my pet crackpot: Ashara didn't have a stillborn, sickly Elia did, and they swapped babies.

 

It is admittedly weak sauce, held together only by our uncertainty of the timing of Ashara's supposed pregnancy, and the fact both Targs and Daynes run to the silver-haired / purple-eyed look. The true beauty though, is that opens the possiblity that Varys might think he has a real Targaryen in Aegon, whereas actually he has a fake. And that's just fun.

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

When I joined the community (way back on the old boards) R+L=J was already the most preferred theory, but it only had a slight edge. There were still many years of genuine good-faith discussions, based on what's in the text of the books, before it became almost universally accepted as most likely correct.

There is very little in the text that supports RLJ.   There is a narrative that has been  built up around the Tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna's disappearance, the Tower of Joy and the prophecy.  A highly romantic narrative that appeals to a large part of the population.  Because something is preferred doesn't make it correct.  I remember those discussions and they were anything but good faith.  The forum was a war zone. People left the forum in droves because they were fed up with the militancy and arrogance of RLJ supporters.

It is still their theory to defend and the militant still don't like it when you poke holes in their sacred cow. The argument put forward in defense is always that this is the most popular theory so it must be so.  It is a waste of time to talk to anyone who does not question their own assumptions, whose mind is already closed and will remain that way.

From where I"m standing, the sacred cow is missing four of it's legs.  I will continue to have an honest discussion with anyone who keeps an open mind.

If people don't want to have this discussion; then stop throwing out the bait in the OP's.

 

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Thank you Professor X for saving us all from those heavy arguments and proofs we couldn't handle.

Hope the hatchet is buried.  

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Guys, please stop the catfight. Discuss as much as you want about the topic at hand, crackpot regarding Jon's parentage, but for whatever this is please use the chat. Thanks!

YES SIR! But this has happened to most of the active forum members since I joined incl. you and it's nothing serious. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

YES SIR! But this has happened to most of the active forum members since I joined incl. you and it's nothing serious. 

Yes, I know, but this particular one has gone on a bit too long, don't you think?

[TheLastWolf]

Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, I know, but this particular one has gone on a bit too long, don't you think?

Too long maybe. Not too far I hope 

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Yes, I know, but this particular one has gone on a bit too long, don't you think?

Look, I appreciate your efforts to keep discussion going on the forum on a variety of subjects.  OP's are a lot of work. If you don't want to have the discussion about XYZ, then don't put up OP's that baits people into that discussion and then tell them to go to Discord. That's the definition of a circle-jerk.  Anything I have to say about it will be in the public domain.

By all means, let this thread drop off the page.

[Azarial]

18 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

If you want an explanation for Ashara's stillborn you can join me in my pet crackpot: Ashara didn't have a stillborn, sickly Elia did, and they swapped babies.

 

It is admittedly weak sauce, held together only by our uncertainty of the timing of Ashara's supposed pregnancy, and the fact both Targs and Daynes run to the silver-haired / purple-eyed look. The true beauty though, is that opens the possiblity that Varys might think he has a real Targaryen in Aegon, whereas actually he has a fake. And that's just fun.

 

I thought I was one of the only ones that had this suspicion. Nice to see someone else got the same impression. The true beauty part is what made me wonder if it was possible given Vary's seeming to think Aegon was the real deal when talking with Kevin. Well, that and Ashara's death, there are hints in the wording around that as well, especially if her baby was with Brandon. Actually I've found a few clues to it being true. I don't think it's a strong theory yet, but I don't think it's weak sauce  it just hasn't been fleshed out yet. 

[Reekazoid]

On 11/23/2020 at 1:04 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Ned in AGOT thinks about his children but  rules out Jon from the count, not to mention given Jon's and Robb's similar ages , Jon was conceived around the time Ned was at Riverrun, so for Ned to be the father, the mother must have been near Riverrun at the time and end up in Dorne for the birth. That simply doesn't make sense. Like what would Ashara been doing near Riverrun?

She would be doing Ned, obviously.  

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

She would be doing Ned, obviously.  

How far was their relationship anyway? And I don't mean tinfoil. The text only hints at it but posters take it to different levels. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:48 PM, LynnS said:

Does it explain the letter that sent Brandon rushing off to KL in a huff?

No, it does not.  Although it doesn’t matter who got her pregnant.  Brandon would still do what he did.  

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

No, it does not.  Although it doesn’t matter who got her pregnant.  Brandon would still do what he did.  

I wasn't sure if you serious about Mance.  If you are convinced it's Mance; then sure I'd like to hear why.

[lehutin]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

How far was their relationship anyway? And I don't mean tinfoil. The text only hints at it but posters take it to different levels. 

There's no evidence there ever was a relationship between Ned and Ashara. The only semi-reliable source (Meera telling a story she heard from her dad, who was at the tourney) says that they danced once. Ned Dayne heard a story from his Aunt Allyria, who wasn't there (and believes that Wylla is Jon's mother); and everyone else (Cat, Cersei, Harwin) is just repeating some rumor they heard from someone who heard it from someone who...

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:21 PM, LynnS said:

Sure, and I don't hold anything against you for it.  Or any other X+L=J combination for that matter.  For myself, Ned isn't X and that rules out Ashera and Wylla for me as well.  I'm pretty certain Lyanna is Jon's mother.  

I'm also not certain that the romance the singers tell isn't a foma.  A harmless untruth told to the small folk to soothe their souls. Or that Robert isn't engaged in his own foma about Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna.  I'm also not certain that Lyanna was the woman Rhaegar fell in love with at the tourney.  I think it was Ashera and not Lyanna.  I'm not sure what lies Ned told Robert about Lyanna and why Ned feels he betrayed Robert.

I'm fairly certain that Rhaegar did not give Lyanna the crown of roses because he loved her.  If he was lovestruck with her, he would have gotten down from his horse and placed the crown on her head.  Instead he drops the crown from the end of his jousting lance into her lap from atop his horse.  That's when all the smiles died.  He investigated the mystery knight and incident between Howland and squires.  I'm fairly convinced that Howland was the mystery knight and Rhaegar outed him by giving Lyanna the crown.  Everyone there will have known what happened to Howland and how Lyanna intervened.

The song that Rhaegar played to make the girls cry was possibly Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.   She was also said to be wild and possibly a witch.  So if Rhaegar is making a comparison between Lyanna and Jenny; it's an insult.  He is saying that like Jenny, her prince will be a dragonfly. But in Lyanna's case a dragonfly from the bogs and swamps.

How and when Lyanna disappeared and who hid her and where is still a mystery to me.  I don't think she was ever at the tower of joy.

But that's just me. 

I know this topic is a couple weeks old, haven’t visited the forum in a while and have been looking through some threads from the past few weeks. I hope you don’t mind discussing.

In light of the fighting later in the thread, I’ll be clear up front that I think RLJ is pretty rock solid theory - I think it’s by far the theory most supported by the text, and it happened in the show, which may not mean much on some things, but D&D won the rights to it by correctly guessing who Jon’s mother is and confirmed that the mom in the show is the same as the books, so I think the presumption should be that the father is the same as well.

That said, I am willing to set that aside and consider alternatives in good faith. I do, however, want to be clear that position is absolutely not informed by any sort of fan fiction desire. I generally dislike Rhaegar (though he is definitely a gray character with positive qualities) and I hate people making him and Lyanna out to be some perfect romance. I also don’t think that would be the implication if RLJ if true in the books, given how it ended in absolute disaster.

What I want to ask about is your opinion that Lyanna was never at the ToJ. If that’s true, then where was she during the war. Where did the ToJ story come from? Why did Ned fight the kingsguard? Why does he have an old dream of fighting the KG outside the tower along with Lyanna in her bed of blood?

The other thing is that if you set aside Rhaegar, I don’t see where there’s any evidence pointing to another father. There’s no indication Lyanna ever met mance. There’s no evidence she had any sort of incestuous relationship with one of her brothers. There’s no reason Howland wouldn’t have raised Jon if he was his father. There’s no connection between Lyanna and Arthur besides Arthur being with Rhaegar when he supposedly kidnapped her and being at the ToJ with the other KG. And for anyone who wasn’t with her after she disappeared, I don’t see how the timing works out. I know you’ve said you don’t have any firm belief in who Jon’s father is, but I’m genuinely curious if you can answer at least some of these questions to make a case for why one of these characters or someone else is a viable candidate for being Jon’s father, because I just don’t see how any of them add up.

[lehutin]

19 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I hate people making him and Lyanna out to be some perfect romance. I also don’t think that would be the implication if RLJ if true in the books, given how it ended in absolute disaster.

You said it perfectly: "absolute disaster." I don't understand why many contrarians (to be clear, not referring to you) like to dismiss RLJ as being some sort of preteen "perfect romance." As a result of that "perfect romance," Rhaegar was killed in action, his wife was brutally raped and murdered, his eldest child was stabbed half a hundred times, his eldest son was (presumably) smashed against a wall, his father was killed by one of his own Kingsguard, his mother died in childbirth, and his surviving siblings grew up in exile; while Lyanna died shortly after childbirth, joining her deceased brother and father.

 

If anything, RLJ is a clear subversion of "happily ever after," but the contrarians seem to totally miss that.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

13 minutes ago, lehutin said:

You said it perfectly: "absolute disaster." I don't understand why many contrarians (to be clear, not referring to you) like to dismiss RLJ as being some sort of preteen "perfect romance." As a result of that "perfect romance," Rhaegar was killed in action, his wife was brutally raped and murdered, his eldest child was stabbed half a hundred times, his eldest son was (presumably) smashed against a wall, his father was killed by one of his own Kingsguard, his mother died in childbirth, and his surviving siblings grew up in exile; while Lyanna died shortly after childbirth, joining her deceased brother and father.

 

If anything, RLJ is a clear subversion of "happily ever after," but the contrarians seem to totally miss that.

Edit: Nvm, didn't catch a line in your post and thought you left out the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, so I made a post adding that to the pile

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:09 PM, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

Wasnt Danny warned against a mummers Dragon and/or paper Prince? Paper puppet dragon? 

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

That's fAegon.

On 11/23/2020 at 2:27 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

• Rhaegar and Lyanna = Jon
• Mance and Lyanna = Jon
• Ned and Ashara = Jon
• Brandon and Ashara = Jon
• Arthur and Lyanna = Jon

Mance + Lyanna = Jon no contextual clues and Lyanna was missing or more than a year.

Ned and Ashara = Jon timeline is off, Harrenhal tourney was in 281, Jon was orn in 283. Ithink that pregnancy lasts 9 months not 24.

Brandon and Ashara = Jon timeline is off, Brandon was killed more than a full year before Jon's birth.

Arthur and Lyanna = Jon  no contextual clues.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

On 11/23/2020 at 4:27 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

• Rhaegar and Lyanna = Jon
• Mance and Lyanna = Jon
• Ned and Ashara = Jon
• Brandon and Ashara = Jon
• Arthur and Lyanna = Jon

Mance + Lyanna = Jon no contextual clues and Lyanna was missing or more than a year.

Ned and Ashara = Jon timeline is off, Harrenhal tourney was in 281, Jon was orn in 283. Ithink that pregnancy lasts 9 months not 24.

Brandon and Ashara = Jon timeline is off, Brandon was killed more than a full year before Jon's birth.

Arthur and Lyanna = Jon  no contextual clues.

I mean the thread did ask for the weirdest crackpot. Pointing out holes is basically praise  given what was asked.