Am I the only one rooting for Aegon?

[Nathan Stark]

7 minutes ago, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

I´ll ship Myrcella, but if it´s going to be Bran, I´m going to riot.

Oh come on! Broken things need love too! 

 

On the question of cheating, I would argue that the lie of Aegon's heritage does matter regardless of whether Aegon or Jon Con know the truth or not. Varys knows the truth. Illyrio knows the truth. If Aegon is a Blackfyre and he gets put on the Iron Throne, it doesn't matter that he believes he's genuine. Varys and Illyrio have created a situation where Aegon and Jon Con will be motivated to protect the lie refardless of whether they know the truth or not. Either way, if Aegon ever sits the Iron Throne, he's probably dead if he ever loses it. So the lie and the cheating matters.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

On 11/23/2020 at 10:09 PM, PrettyLittlePsycho said:

Well, there is a good chance Aegon is a fake, but if he is, I´m sure he doesn´t know. He believes to be Aegon, and thus he isn´t deliberatly cheating. And it´s highly unlikely he´ll ever learn the truth. So the big philosophical question is "Is it cheating if you don´t know you´re cheating ?"

If he doesn't know, that simply is a good reason to not hold it against him (or Connington) as long as that ignorance continues. For the philosophical question you threw, I'll just be short: of course, in my opinion. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears, there's still noise.

Also, what Nathan Stark said. Even if Aegon and Jon are unaware of the ploy, it's still in effect. And should Aegon learn it, he'd have motive to become part of it himself. Should he learn of it and then come out with the truth, however... that'd be commendable.

On 11/23/2020 at 10:31 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Even if he is a Blackfyre he still has right of blood, and more importantly conquest.

If he indeed is a Blackfyre, he'd have claim to the Throne. And I'd say it would be better than the claims of Cersei's children. And were he to assert the right of conquest, that at least would be honest. So yeah, if these conditions were to be met, my objection would vanish. I might still object, but not on these grounds.

But these are not the justifications he will use, no? Even if he were to claim the right of conquest, as long as he doesn't do it in his own name, he's still subject to this criticism.

On 11/23/2020 at 11:03 PM, Nathan Stark said:

On the question of cheating, I would argue that the lie of Aegon's heritage does matter regardless of whether Aegon or Jon Con know the truth or not. Varys knows the truth. Illyrio knows the truth. If Aegon is a Blackfyre and he gets put on the Iron Throne, it doesn't matter that he believes he's genuine. Varys and Illyrio have created a situation where Aegon and Jon Con will be motivated to protect the lie refardless of whether they know the truth or not. Either way, if Aegon ever sits the Iron Throne, he's probably dead if he ever loses it. So the lie and the cheating matters.

Agreed.

[nyser1]

How is Tommen, an eight year old boy, fated to be a poor King? He's young enough (whikle lacking the psycho incest gene) to learn. As is Myrcellla, but there is so indication she is exceptionally wise,

 

As for Aegon - I am not against him personally. I am against his allies though, and the notion that the Targaryens have a right to rule Westeros.

[Tyrion1991]

14 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Call me crazy, but with the alternatives being Cersei, a paranoid mad narcissists, Dany, the soon to be literal embodiment of fire and blood, Euron, Cthulhu's personal minion, Stannis, a man with a history of burning people alive and Jon, a dead, brooding, miserable sod, Aegon looks pretty good. Sure he is pretty hot headed, but other then that, there isn't any cruelty or general shittyness around him, and he doesn't treat literal A-bomb as "my children". So am I the only one rooting for him?

 

And yes, I know he's probably a fake, but why should that matter?

 

Well, ostensibly we the readers are supposed to think he’s just one of Danys allies and paving the way for her. George thinks he’s been really subtle with this Dance with Dragons 2.0. So shhhh, spoilers. They’re all on the same team.

But against Dany? Lots of readers support him. The issue is that the characters they would root for like Stannis and Jon are too far away and removed from this plot. So there isn’t too much discussion about what may never happen. A bit like Stannis vs Dany. They’re so far removed I don’t think there’s going to be a conflict in the limited scope of the books.

Really? What’s the blast radius of a dragon breath attack? Real convenient those Direwolves have never caused any bother and are so easy to control. 

It doesn’t at all. Any more than Dany having always been illegitimate on grounds of being a woman. 

Personally I don’t root for him because he’s very obviously a contrived excuse to make things difficult for Dany and push her into another impossible situation. On top of Dance this has crossed the line into the author actively writing against the character and having no regard for how things would play out in believable circumstances. Oh, Dany has to go Fire and Blood because fake Targaryen drops out the sky and takes Westeros in a day. Who’d have thought. All without Dany having had any decision making or agency going into it. Basically Aegon is a pawn in George’s game and I just roll my eyes at it. How can anyone make grand pronouncements on human nature and politics if you’re pulling out dumb scenarios like that? 

 

[TedBear]

spoiled kid, but I don't dislike him. 

[Destiny Arrives]

Yea Team Aegon here rooting for him all the way. I hope he beat Euron meets jon and tries to fix the realm. I for one did not take him slapping over a stupid game to be detriment. Its Tyrion even Robb and Jon wanted to slap him for his sardonic wit. Jon down right set his wolf on him. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

I wish he wouldn’t have kicked over the game board. Immediate turn off.

[TheLastWolf]

20 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wish he wouldn’t have kicked over the game board. Immediate turn off.

That doesn't make him Joff. Board not a pregnant cat. Willful teen thats all. We all might've have done something similar at least once. And power resides where men believe it to be, what if Aegon is fake when he could possibly be a better ruler than most (not all) claimants@TsarGrey

[Rose of Red Lake]

33 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

That doesn't make him Joff. Board not a pregnant cat. Willful teen thats all. We all might've have done something similar at least once. And power resides where men believe it to be, what if Aegon is fake when he could possibly be a better ruler than most (not all) claimants@TsarGrey

Ha, no, not a cat. But you could flip it and say, well it’s just a game so why did he act that way? Isn’t he older than a six year old?

Anything that smacks of sore loser is not a good look especially as big orange baby Trump is throwing a tantrum and flipping the table after losing.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

33 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

That doesn't make him Joff. Board not a pregnant cat. Willful teen thats all. We all might've have done something similar at least once. And power resides where men believe it to be, what if Aegon is fake when he could possibly be a better ruler than most (not all) claimants@TsarGrey

I'll treat this as a suggestion that Aegon could offer more wellbeing and happiness in relation to these other claimants. I'd say that the utilitarian argument for the greater good has it's flaws, and there is more to the morality and ethics than just the Care/harm foundation. From there:

Quote

Utilitarianism also has trouble accounting for values such as justice and individual rights.  For example, assume a hospital has four people whose lives depend upon receiving organ transplants: a heart, lungs, a kidney, and a liver. If a healthy person wanders into the hospital, his organs could be harvested to save four lives at the expense of one life. This would arguably produce the greatest good for the greatest number. But few would consider it an acceptable course of action, let alone the most ethical one.

So, although utilitarianism is arguably the most reason-based approach to determining right and wrong, it has obvious limitations.

I see justice as a value contained by the Fairness/proportionality foundation. Aegon's ascension by deceit would be dishonest and unjust. And even if one were to argue that those values do not matter or should be overlooked for the greater good, one should consider the other people who may not agree. Besides myself, I'd point two examples from the books: Eddard and Robb. Both warlords, with the power to command armies.

AGoT, Eddard XIII.

Spoiler

Ned gave him a stony stare. "Have you no shred of honor?"

"Oh, a shred, surely," Littlefinger replied negligently. "Hear me out. Stannis is no friend of yours, nor of mine. Even his brothers can scarcely stomach him. The man is iron, hard and unyielding. He'll give us a new Hand and a new council, for a certainty. No doubt he'll thank you for handing him the crown, but he won't love you for it. And his ascent will mean war. Stannis cannot rest easy on the throne until Cersei and her bastards are dead. Do you think Lord Tywin will sit idly while his daughter's head is measured for a spike? Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

"Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well … four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."

"We?" Ned repeated.

Littlefinger gave a shrug. "You'll need someone to share your burdens. I assure you, my price would be modest."

"Your price." Ned's voice was ice. "Lord Baelish, what you suggest is treason."

"Only if we lose."

"You forget," Ned told him. "You forget Jon Arryn. You forget Jory Cassel. And you forget this." He drew the dagger and laid it on the table between them; a length of dragonbone and Valyrian steel, as sharp as the difference between right and wrong, between true and false, between life and death. "They sent a man to cut my son's throat, Lord Baelish."

Littlefinger sighed. "I fear I did forget, my lord. Pray forgive me. For a moment I did not remember that I was talking to a Stark." His mouth quirked. "So it will be Stannis, and war?"

"It is not a choice. Stannis is the heir."

AGoT, Catelyn XI.

Spoiler

"Renly is not the king," Robb said. It was the first time her son had spoken. Like his father, he knew how to listen.

"You cannot mean to hold to Joffrey, my lord," Galbart Glover said. "He put your father to death."

"That makes him evil," Robb replied. "I do not know that it makes Renly king. Joffrey is still Robert's eldest trueborn son, so the throne is rightfully his by all the laws of the realm. Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey."

"Tommen is no less a Lannister," Ser Marq Piper snapped.

"As you say," said Robb, troubled. "Yet if neither one is king, still, how could it be Lord Renly? He's Robert's younger brother. Bran can't be Lord of Winterfell before me, and Renly can't be king before Lord Stannis."

Lady Mormont agreed. "Lord Stannis has the better claim."

"Renly is crowned," said Marq Piper. "Highgarden and Storm's End support his claim, and the Dornishmen will not be laggardly. If Winterfell and Riverrun add their strength to his, he will have five of the seven great houses behind him. Six, if the Arryns bestir themselves! Six against the Rock! My lords, within the year, we will have all their heads on pikes, the queen and the boy king, Lord Tywin, the Imp, the Kingslayer, Ser Kevan, all of them! That is what we shall win if we join with King Renly. What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?"

"The right," said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it.

"So you mean us to declare for Stannis?" asked Edmure.

"I don't know," said Robb. "I prayed to know what to do, but the gods did not answer. The Lannisters killed my father for a traitor, and we know that was a lie, but if Joffrey is the lawful king and we fight against him, we will be traitors."

I'd say that pursuing the care in these instances would require one to violate the fairness/proportionality. It would cause strife with the other people who have different priorities, those who care about the rightful line of succession, thereby preventing the greater good from manifesting. The fact that one can blame that on the reactionary opposition can be countered by the consequentialist argument: it's the outcome that matters. If one doesn't want trouble, then one should not start it. By cheating, lying and taking what is not theirs, in the particular cases of Joffrey, Tommen, and Aegon. (Yes, it may be that none of them is aware of the deceit themselves.)

And even if the deceit were to be carried out with nobody knowing, I'd still say it would be wrong. But well, that's me.

[TheLastWolf]

On 11/24/2020 at 9:23 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wish he wouldn’t have kicked over the game board. Immediate turn off.

Rereading this, I got a dirty, no, naughty thought. We're you by any chance attracted to him? No offense. Please pardon if you do take umbrage. It's normal. I have been attracted to a few characters myself too

[Lord of Oldstones]

I am rooting for Aegon to make Westeros great again by removing the hated abdominations of Lannisters out of power and defending the Reach against the unredeemable theives of Ironborns. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I’ve considered the left field idea of Jon’s resurrection involving his soul being skinchanged into Aegon’s body, thereby having Rhaegar’s real son and heir ending up conquering Westeros in the body of a fake who is falsely claiming to be his heir.

Kind of an ironic GRRM type of twist.

But of course, that’s not the role George intends for Aegon in this plot.

[butterweedstrover]

He stole the real Aegon's identity. 

So yeah, he sucks.

[ShimShim]

He is bound to do something either horrible or stupid that will turn the realm against him when Dany comes so she can be seen as the savior the kingdom needs.

[dbergkvist]

I root for the smallfolk. I don't care who is the ruler as long as there is peace. Considering that Varys can apparently assassinate whoever he wants in King's Landing, it stands to reason that whoever Varys decides to leave in power will surrender King's Landing to Aegon, thereby avoiding an all-out war. But if Aegon decides to have a battle anyways, I'd be against him.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 hours ago, ShimShim said:

He is bound to do something either horrible or stupid that will turn the realm against him when Dany comes so she can be seen as the savior the kingdom needs.

What if she isn't? Dany is op, if she has all the power in the word, in the form of the Unsuallied, the Dothraki and the Dragons as well as the love of the people, then what would the point be?

I personally think that Aegon will be a good ruler, and when Dany dragons him to death she will be hated as an usurper and a kinslayer, ironically the thing she hates the most. It would be a great idea to see Dany dealing with it.

[Aldarion]

On 11/23/2020 at 10:23 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Call me crazy, but with the alternatives being Cersei, a paranoid mad narcissists, Dany, the soon to be literal embodiment of fire and blood, Euron, Cthulhu's personal minion, Stannis, a man with a history of burning people alive and Jon, a dead, brooding, miserable sod, Aegon looks pretty good. Sure he is pretty hot headed, but other then that, there isn't any cruelty or general shittyness around him, and he doesn't treat literal A-bomb as "my children". So am I the only one rooting for him?

 

And yes, I know he's probably a fake, but why should that matter?

You are definitely not the only one. And yeah, I very much agree with you on all of these.

[broken one]

On 11/23/2020 at 10:23 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Call me crazy, but with the alternatives being Cersei, a paranoid mad narcissists, Dany, the soon to be literal embodiment of fire and blood, Euron, Cthulhu's personal minion, Stannis, a man with a history of burning people alive and Jon, a dead, brooding, miserable sod, Aegon looks pretty good. Sure he is pretty hot headed, but other then that, there isn't any cruelty or general shittyness around him, and he doesn't treat literal A-bomb as "my children". So am I the only one rooting for him?

My opinion on Dany, Jon and Stan is far better than this, but I definitely root for Aegon. Even if he's fake (this is least important imo).  In Jon Con's chapters the boy shows charisma, guts and brains. 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

21 minutes ago, broken one said:

My opinion on Dany, Jon and Stan is far better than this

Yeah, mine too, I was just highlighting the major flaws in each of them that Aegon doesn't have.

21 minutes ago, broken one said:

In Jon Con's chapters the boy shows charisma, guts and brains. 

I think Aegon best shows Machiavelli's principles of virtu, a leader that draws people to himself through his personality and good traits, without becoming beholdent to them (like Ned does).

21 minutes ago, broken one said:

Even if he's fake (this is least important imo).

As Varys says, power resides where men believe it it resides, if everybody thinks him genuine, himself included, then there's no difference to him actually being genuine.