Why the Sealord chose Syrio to guard him

CamiloRP · November 24, 2020

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Read Ned's chapters there, it's called the Black Cells because it's pitch black.

He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference.

Yeah, still tho.

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Black cells being plural tells me they were not in the same cell.

Not really strange at all, they've been a cage together for a while at this point.

Yeah, but he might refer to 'cell companions' as they are his companions in Yaqen's cell. But, unless they where all together in one cell, they wouldn't be his Black Cells companions, as he shouldn't have noticed them there.

Let's say for example we both went to the same hotel at the same time, but never saw eachother, we wouldn't call ourselves "hotel companions".

Nevertheless, it doesn't matter, as I think you might be right because of this:

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I would point to this quote as a pretty clear indication that the black cells are isolation cells:

"On the upper level, there are large cells where common criminals may be confined together. They have narrow windows set high in the walls. The second level has the smaller cells where highborn captives are held. They have no windows, but torches in the halls cast light through the bars. On the third level the cells are smaller and the doors are wood. The black cells, men call them.

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Not if Rugen is in on it... or you knew your way around the secret passages yourself.

A passage to the black cells had been found, and a stone well that seemed to have no bottom. They had found a chamber full of skulls and yellowed bones, and four sacks of tarnished silver coins from the reign of the first King Viserys. They had found a thousand rats as well . . . but neither Tyrion nor Varys had been amongst them, and Jaime had finally insisted on putting an end to the search. One boy had gotten stuck in a narrow passage and had to be pulled out by his feet, shrieking. Another fell down a shaft and broke his legs. And two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel. Some of the other guards swore they could hear them calling faintly through the stone, but when Jaime's men tore down the wall they found only earth and rubble on the far side.

They even lost living people down there! (or they found something they were not supposed to!)

Yep, that's what I said.

Rondo · November 24, 2020

There must have been a Second Sword and a Third Sword. The Sealord will be surrounded by many guards. Syrio had dedication. He was willing to die to protect the people in his care. A mercenary would not do that. Nor would a vassal.

The Lord of the Crossing · November 25, 2020

On 11/23/2020 at 11:21 PM, Unit A2 said:

The reason has been covered here before by more than one poster. I have my own theory and am presenting it here for the benefit of the new people.

The Sealord was guarding against the faceless men. He was looking for somebody who cannot be fooled by the disguise. The effectiveness of the disguise is dependent on suggestion and the susceptibility of the receiver. Syrio doesn't fall for the BS. He can see right through the faceless men's tricks. The faceless men have been around for a long time. Important people like the Sealord and wealthy merchants will have found a way to counter their tricks. A formal method for training Anti-Assassination personnel would have been created and those with strong minds were taught to develop methodologies for countering the faceless men. Syrio can see through the mental fog and recognized a common cat.

Syrio may have had such skills in addition to an older man's sensibilities. He would die to safeguard his protectee if the situation turns sour. Which is what you want in your security man. Arya was privileged to be there to see Syrio's selfless act. Syrio would be disappointed if he saw how the life he saved turned out. Here's to hoping Arya sacrifices her own life to save a worthy person in the next book.

Megorova · November 25, 2020

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

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FM stole all those riches that were used to create Braavos and Iron Bank.

Is there evidence for this?

From the World book - "Braavos is also home to one of the most powerful banks in the world, whose roots stretch back to the beginnings of the city, when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had in an abandoned iron mine to keep them safe from thieves and pirates. As the city grew and prospered, the shafts and chambers of the mine began to fill. Rather than let their treasure sit idle in the earth, the wealthier Braavosi began to make loans to their less fortunate brethren."

"Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to “the far ends of the earth” to escape their erstwhile masters."

"Even so, Uthero had sent envoys from the Iron Bank to Valyria several years prior, to clear the way for what became known as the Uncloaking or the Unmasking of Uthero. The dragonlords proved to have little interest in the descendants of slaves who had escaped a century before, and the Iron Bank paid handsome settlements to the grandchildren of the men whose ships the founders had seized and sailed away (whilst refusing to pay for the value of the slaves themselves)."

Braavos was founded by slaves that were supposed to populate new Valyrian colony in Sothoryos. Among them were - "They were a diverse people, whose numbers included Andals, Summer Islanders, Ghiscari, Naathi, Rhoynar, Ibbenese, Sarnori, even debtors and criminals of pure Valyrian blood. Some had been trained in arms to serve as guardsmen and slave soldiers; others were bedslaves, whose art was the giving of pleasure. There were many sorts of household slaves amongst them: tutors, nursemaids, cooks, grooms, and stewards. Others were skilled craftsmen: carpenters, armorers, masons, and weavers. Some were fishermen, some field hands, some galley slaves, many common laborers."

Those Valyrians were planning to build mansions and pleasure houses in Sothoryos. They were bringing slave-guardsmen, tutors, nursemaids, cooks, grooms, and stewards to work in those mansions, and bedslaves to work at pleasure/pillow houses. All "inventory" and materials to create new inventory, they were also bringing with them to the new colony. They brought gold, silver, gemstones, jewellery, marble and other stones, all sorts of precious wood (like sandalwood and ebony), all sorts of fabrics/textiles, to use them for interior design of all those mansions and palaces. All that baggage was (supposed to be) brought to Sothoryos, and used for building, decorating and furnishing future housing for Valyrian masters, that were supposed to arrive to the colony on later ships, already after first wave of slaves would have established there a colony, and build and settled there and prepared everything for their masters' arrival. Or did you thought that it was Valyrian masters and not their slaves, who traveled in ships clattered with all that excess luggage?

"when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had" - those people were slaves. Slaves don't own anything, they have no posessions of their own, because they themselves are a property. Thus whatever those fugitives were hiding in those mines in Braavos was what they took from "large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos" - everything that they had was a property of their Valyrian masters, people that owned those ships and everything else that those ships were bringing to Sothoryos to create a new colony. And Valyrian colonies were nothing like early American, they were opulent and grandiose, more like luxury resorts or 5-star hotels. And when the Sealord Uthero paid back to Valyrians for the ships that were stolen, he didn't compensated the price of anything else, only for the ships, not for slaves and not for all those riches that those ships were supposed to bring to Sothoryos.

Then in Arya's chapters there's information about first Faceless Men, that originally they were slaves working in the mines owned by Valyrian slavers. How they became assassins, learned to change their appearances, and passed this knowledge to others who also became FM. It's logical that after those assassins from Valyrian mines killed their masters, they didn't remained there, instead they escaped and eventually ended up in Braavos, and joined their forces with those escaped slave-colonists from Sothoryos-convoy. And when FM were escaping from those mines, where they were enslaved, isn't it logical that before they left they robed their masters? Those were gold and silver mines. Because to travel from there and to Braavos they needed money/other resources. They killed their masters, so their masters didn't needed all that gold and silver that was mined by slaves/FM. They mined it. So they took it.

I'm not saying that everything owned by IB is stolen goods, I'm just saying that the original capital, those riches that were used in the beginning of Braavos' founding, were stolen by slaves from their Valyrian masters. They used what they stole as a starting capital, and then increased their riches by other means, like loaning money to outsiders, trading, etc.

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

He tells her to never loose her sword, that it's a part of her. The Faceless force her to get rid of the sword.

The sword is part of "Arya Stark", and they tried to teach her to be more than Arya Stark, to be able to become many different people.

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If that was the case, why didn't Varys or "Ruguen" realised Jaqen was missing for all the time he was teaching Arya? The logistics of it also make little sense, did he have a secret hideout, a Batcave, where he left Syrio's clothes and face?

Rugen wasn't in the cells often, he went there ocassionally. Because he wasn't really a gaoler. Most of his time he was spending as Varys, in the castle above cells. Varys wasn't aware of who was in those cells, because he neglected his duties as a gaoler. He just used this persona to get access to secret passages that were leading from Black cells to various chambers in the castle. The starting point of those passages was in the dungeon. Thus Varys needed some sort of excuse to have unrestricted access to the dungeons. And the best excuse for him to be there, and for Cersei, Tywin and others to be unaware of it, is for Varys to impersonate a gaoler.

Also Syrio didn't needed a place where to leave his face. Because it's his real face, not a mask like Jaqen's face or Alchemist's face. Apparently when he came to King's Landing, he brought with him from Braavos several "faces" and other props, to be able to impersonate various people. He had a house or hideout somewhere in King's Landing, or simply rented a room at an inn, and when he was impersonating Jaqen, even though he was supposedly locked in his cell, he was able to get out of there whenever he wanted. Could be that other prisoners saw him going out of his supposedly locked cell, and they saw him changing his face, that's why they were afraid of him. He went from his cell into the secret passage, from there came out on the other side, and went out thru the door of one of those chambers in the castle above, that were connected with that passage. It's not like guards and servants in the castle know everyone who is supposed to be there or not supposed to be there. If someone met him in the castle, they just assumed that he had a right to be there, that he was let inside by the guards thru the gates. They couldn't have realised that he isn't supposed to be there, because they didn't knew about those secret passages. No one could have thought that someone who is in the castle got there not thru the gates, without being allowed to go inside by the guards.

He was using Jaqen's persona in the cells, and some other face/faces in the castle. Apparently he approached someone in the castle and applied for a job, as himself, as Syrion Forel, a sword-master. As Jaqen he intentionally got imprisoned and sent to the Black cells. That way he got himself an access to both entry and exit points of those secret passages.

17 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

But when did Penny get a dragon's egg?!?!? did I miss something?

ADWD, Tyrion VIII - "Penny did not seem to hear that. "It was Father's idea to do the tilts. He even trained the first pig, but by then he was too sick to ride her, so Oppo took his place. I always rode the dog. We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a … a grand gift."

Why did she paused? Because she was forbidden by her father to reveal to other people that the Sealord gave them dragon eggs. She's a bit simple minded, and she's not a convincing liar. Thus, that pause, before she remembered what she's supposed to say instead of "afterward he gave each of us a dragon egg".

17 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And then the leap from Whitewalls to Illyrio? sorry you lost me there.

In The Mystery Knight GRRM used mummer-dwarfs as "curriers" that returned the egg to it's rightful owners - Targaryens. In the main series he also used mummer-dwarfs as a medium thru which Targaryen dragon eggs were returned to their rightful owners:

Targaryens - Alissa Farman - the Sealord who ruled prior the Dance of the Dragons - his descendants or sucessors/other Sealords - Ferrego Antarion/the current Sealord - mummer-dwarfs - Illyrio - Dany.

Aegon IV - Butterwell senior - Aegon's bastard-son Ambrose Butterwell - mummer-dwarfs - Bloodraven - Targaryens.

17 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I find it nearly impossible to believe the Sealord of Braavos gave away dragon eggs to dwarf jesters.

Though he did. He had some sort of hidden motive why he did it. It was a part of some long winded conspiracy. It seems that the first Sealord, who got those eggs from Alissa, was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys, and he intentionally introduced her to Aegon IV, when Aegon was sent to Braavos as an envoy. He had three dragon eggs, and Bellegere was remaing with Aegon as his mistress for 10 years, until she gave birth to three of Aegon's children. Apparently the Sealord was intending to use his dragonseed great-grandchildren to try and hatch those eggs. Also it was known that dragonseeds sometimes have a gift of foresight, like Daenys the Dreamer, Daemon II Blackfyre, Daeron the Drunken, (Shiera, Rhaegar, Dany). Could be that one of Bellegere's children, or their descendants, for the example the current Black Pearl of Braavos, were seers, and the Sealords were using information that was gained from those visions. Could be that Ferrego intentionally gave away his dragon eggs to Hop-Bean and his children, because he knew that by this method those eggs will eventually hatch, and it did happened, when Illyrio gave those eggs to Dany as her wedding gift. And whatever Jaqen/Syrio/fPate was doing in King's Landing and now at the Citadel is all connected to Targaryens/dragonseeds and their dragons.

Mourning Star · November 25, 2020

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Though he did. He had some sort of hidden motive why he did it. It was a part of some long winded conspiracy. It seems that the first Sealord, who got those eggs from Alissa, was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys, and he intentionally introduced her to Aegon IV, when Aegon was sent to Braavos as an envoy. He had three dragon eggs, and Bellegere was remaing with Aegon as his mistress for 10 years, until she gave birth to three of Aegon's children. Apparently the Sealord was intending to use his dragonseed great-grandchildren to try and hatch those eggs. Also it was known that dragonseeds sometimes have a gift of foresight, like Daenys the Dreamer, Daemon II Blackfyre, Daeron the Drunken, (Shiera, Rhaegar, Dany). Could be that one of Bellegere's children, or their ancestors, for the example the current Black Pearl of Braavos, were seers, and the Sealords were using information that was gained from those visions. Could be that Ferrego intentionally gave away his dragon eggs to Hop-Bean and his children, because he knew that by this method those eggs will eventually hatch, and it did happened, when Illyrio gave those eggs to Dany as her wedding gift. And whatever Jaqen/Syrio/fPate was doing in King's Landing and now at the Citadel is all connected to Targaryens/dragonseeds and their dragons.

So just to be clear, this entire bit of speculation is based on the assumption that "a grand gift" was a dragon egg? And the logic is because there were dwarfs at Whitewalls?

This does not seem reasonable or probable to me. Sorry.

CamiloRP · November 25, 2020

26 minutes ago, Megorova said:

From the World book - "Braavos is also home to one of the most powerful banks in the world, whose roots stretch back to the beginnings of the city, when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had in an abandoned iron mine to keep them safe from thieves and pirates. As the city grew and prospered, the shafts and chambers of the mine began to fill. Rather than let their treasure sit idle in the earth, the wealthier Braavosi began to make loans to their less fortunate brethren."

"Braavos was founded by fugitives from a large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos, who rose in a bloody rebellion, seized control of the ships on which they were being transported, and fled to “the far ends of the earth” to escape their erstwhile masters."

"Even so, Uthero had sent envoys from the Iron Bank to Valyria several years prior, to clear the way for what became known as the Uncloaking or the Unmasking of Uthero. The dragonlords proved to have little interest in the descendants of slaves who had escaped a century before, and the Iron Bank paid handsome settlements to the grandchildren of the men whose ships the founders had seized and sailed away (whilst refusing to pay for the value of the slaves themselves)."

Braavos was founded by slaves that were supposed to populate new Valyrian colony in Sothoryos. Among them were - "They were a diverse people, whose numbers included Andals, Summer Islanders, Ghiscari, Naathi, Rhoynar, Ibbenese, Sarnori, even debtors and criminals of pure Valyrian blood. Some had been trained in arms to serve as guardsmen and slave soldiers; others were bedslaves, whose art was the giving of pleasure. There were many sorts of household slaves amongst them: tutors, nursemaids, cooks, grooms, and stewards. Others were skilled craftsmen: carpenters, armorers, masons, and weavers. Some were fishermen, some field hands, some galley slaves, many common laborers."

Those Valyrians were planning to build mansions and pleasure houses in Sothoryos. They were bringing slave-guardsmen, tutors, nursemaids, cooks, grooms, and stewards to work in those mansions, and bedslaves to work at pleasure/pillow houses. All "inventory" and materials to create new inventory, they were also bringing with them to the new colony. They brought gold, silver, gemstones, jewellery, marble and other stones, all sorts of precious wood (like sandalwood and ebony), all sorts of fabrics/textiles, to use them for interior design of all those mansions and palaces. All that baggage was (supposed to be) brought to Sothoryos, and used for building, decorating and furnishing future housing for Valyrian masters, that were supposed to arrive to the colony on later ships, already after first wave of slaves would have established there a colony, and build and settled there and prepared everything for their masters' arrival. Or did you thought that it was Valyrian masters and not their slaves, who traveled in ships clattered with all that excess luggage?

"when a few of the fugitives took to hiding such valuables as they had" - those people were slaves. Slaves don't own anything, they have no posessions of their own, because they themselves are a property. Thus whatever those fugitives were hiding in those mines in Braavos was what they took from "large convoy of slave ships on its way from Valyria to a newly established colony in Sothoryos" - everything that they had was a property of their Valyrian masters, people that owned those ships and everything else that those ships were bringing to Sothoryos to create a new colony. And Valyrian colonies were nothing like early American, they were opulent and grandiose, more like luxury resorts or 5-star hotels. And when the Sealord Uthero paid back to Valyrians for the ships that were stolen, he didn't compensated the price of anything else, only for the ships, not for slaves and not for all those riches that those ships were supposed to bring to Sothoryos.

Then in Arya's chapters there's information about first Faceless Men, that originally they were slaves working in the mines owned by Valyrian slavers. How they became assassins, learned to change their appearances, and passed this knowledge to others who also became FM. It's logical that after those assassins from Valyrian mines killed their masters, they didn't remained there, instead they escaped and eventually ended up in Braavos, and joined their forces with those escaped slave-colonists from Sothoryos-convoy. And when FM were escaping from those mines, where they were enslaved, isn't it logical that before they left they robed their masters? Those were gold and silver mines. Because to travel from there and to Braavos they needed money/other resources. They killed their masters, so their masters didn't needed all that gold and silver that was mined by slaves/FM. They mined it. So they took it.

I'm not saying that everything owned by IB is stolen goods, I'm just saying that the original capital, those riches that were used in the beginning of Braavos' founding, were stolen by slaves from their Valyrian masters. They used what they stole as a starting capital, and then increased their riches by other means, like loaning money to outsiders, trading, etc.

Yeah. The Braavosi stole the first goods from the Valiryans. That we know. But we have no indication that it was done by the Faceless Men, no indication that the SL is a FM, etc.

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The sword is part of "Arya Stark", and they tried to teach her to be more than Arya Stark, to be able to become many different people.

Syrio teaches her to embrace her identity. FM teach her the opposite.

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Rugen wasn't in the cells often, he went there ocassionally. Because he wasn't really a gaoler. Most of his time he was spending as Varys, in the castle above cells. Varys wasn't aware of who was in those cells, because he neglected his duties as a gaoler. He just used this persona to get access to secret passages that were leading from Black cells to various chambers in the castle. The starting point of those passages was in the dungeon. Thus Varys needed some sort of excuse to have unrestricted access to the dungeons. And the best excuse for him to be there, and for Cersei, Tywin and others to be unaware of it, is for Varys to impersonate a gaoler.

But any other gaoler would have noticed. And Varys, the spymaster whose tunnels often go through the cells, should have noticed.

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Also Syrio didn't needed a place where to leave his face. Because it's his real face

Evidence for this?

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, not a mask like Jaqen's face or Alchemist's face. Apparently when he came to King's Landing, he brought with him from Braavos several "faces" and other props, to be able to impersonate various people. He had a house or hideout somewhere in King's Landing, or simply rented a room at an inn, and when he was impersonating Jaqen, even though he was supposedly locked in his cell, he was able to get out of there whenever he wanted.

And thus, alerting the gaolers, inmates and Varys. Someone would have noticed.

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Could be that other prisoners saw him going out of his supposedly locked cell, and they saw him changing his face, that's why they were afraid of him.

Why didn't they kill him when they had the chance?

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ADWD, Tyrion VIII - "Penny did not seem to hear that. "It was Father's idea to do the tilts. He even trained the first pig, but by then he was too sick to ride her, so Oppo took his place. I always rode the dog. We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a … a grand gift."

Why did she paused? Because she was forbidden by her father to reveal to other people that the Sealord gave them dragon eggs. She's a bit simple minded, and she's not a convincing liar. Thus, that pause, before she remembered what she's supposed to say instead of "afterward he gave each of us a dragon egg".

Why a dragon egg? Why not a glass candle, a valiryan steel sword, an elephant, or one of his painted lissards? Why would anyone give away dragon eggs, one of the most rare things in the world, of tremendous value even if you aren't able to hatch them, as a gift to some mummers? Why would the Sealord of Braavos want loose dragon eggs in the world?

Megorova · November 25, 2020

2 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

So just to be clear, this entire bit of speculation is based on the assumption that "a grand gift" was a dragon egg?

Yes.

This assumption is not as unreasonable as it may seems at a first glance. The main reason why I consider this assumption to be reasonable, is because in those times (from after the Dance of the Dragons and until now) dragon eggs became a rarity. Thus, how likely is it that "Alissa's" three dragon eggs and "Illyrio's" three dragon eggs are not the same eggs?

But also based on some other subtle elements placed here and there by GRRM.

Bellegere's three dragonseed children. The previous history of Penny's family. Varys is, most likely, a secret dragonseed, in my opinion, a Blackfyre. And I think that Littlefinger is also a dragonseed. And the two of them know this info about each other. I think that Littlefinger knew from where Dany got her dragons, and that it was Illyrio who gave those dragon eggs to her, and also he knew that Illyrio got those eggs from those mummer-dwarfs, that performed a show for the Sealord, who was the original owner of those eggs. The reason why Littlefinger sent his agent to Essos, to specifically hire there Oppo and Penny, and to make them perform at the Purple Wedding the same show, was to show to Varys that he knows. I mean that Littlefinger wanted Varys to know that Littlefinger knows what Varys is doing, that he knows the origin of Dany's dragons, that he knows that Illyrio and Varys originally got those eggs for fAegon, and that they failed to hatch them in span of those five years that fAegon lived at Illyrio's mansion, prior he was sent to Jon Connington, when plan 1 failed and they switched to plan 2. They thought that if those eggs didn't hatched for fAegon, then they won't hatch for Dany. Illyrio was going to retrieve those eggs from Dothraki thru Jorah, after Dany's death, or after Drogo fulfilled his promise and gave 10.000 fighters to aid fAegon and Golden Company.

This action on Littlefinger's side (getting those dwarfs perform at the wedding) was intended as a mockery towards Varys. To show him that he knows what Varys did in Essos, that his plans failed, that he knows the origin of those eggs.

And other elements.

24 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

This does not seem reasonable or probable to me. Sorry.

I think GRRM will reveal this info (the origin of those eggs) in further books. So we will see how probable/improbable were my "assumptions".

Megorova · November 25, 2020

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

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Also Syrio didn't needed a place where to leave his face. Because it's his real face

Evidence for this?

He's a Braavosi, and FM are stationed at Braavos.

Most likely, all Faceless Men are Braavosi. I think that what Jaqen did, gave iron coin to Arya (a ticket to become an acolyte of FM), isn't usually done. Usually they don't invite outsiders to join them. Arya is a special case, because she saved Jaqen's life, and he became indebted to her, all FM became indebted to her.

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why didn't they kill him when they had the chance?

Because they were afraid of him, thought that he's not really a human.

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why a dragon egg?

Because he had three, and there was three dwarfs, and he gave "a grand gift" to each of them.

28 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why would anyone give away dragon eggs, one of the most rare things in the world, of tremendous value even if you aren't able to hatch them, as a gift to some mummers? Why would the Sealord of Braavos want loose dragon eggs in the world?

Because he knew that if he will give those eggs to those dwarfs, then those eggs will hatch, and he knew that this is necessary, that dragons will return. He knew about the upcoming Long Night, and that dragons are necessary for humankind to survive thru it. He knew because Bellegere's and Aegon's descendants are seers, and either the Sealord is one of them, or he is bloodrelated to one of the seers. He gave them away because he knew that it's a correct path, in the end of which people will survive thru Long Night, thanks to those three dragons.

CamiloRP · November 25, 2020

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

He's a Braavosi, and FM are stationed at Braavos.

Most likely, all Faceless Men are Braavosi. I think that what Jaqen did, gave iron coin to Arya (a ticket to become an acolyte of FM), isn't usually done. Usually they don't invite outsiders to join them. Arya is a special case, because she saved Jaqen's life, and he became indebted to her, all FM became indebted to her.

We only know the nationality of two FM. Both are Westerosi. We have no evidence to suggest that even if Syrio is a FM, he's using his true face.

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Because they were afraid of him, thought that he's not really a human.

Jaqen was begging to be saved from the fire. Rorge had the axe, he could've left him there to die in the flames. He didn't. Fear doesn't explain that.

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Because he knew that if he will give those eggs to those dwarfs, then those eggs will hatch, and he knew that this is necessary, that dragons will return. He knew about the upcoming Long Night, and that dragons are necessary for humankind to survive thru it. He knew because Bellegere's and Aegon's descendants are seers, and either the Sealord is one of them, or he is bloodrelated to one of the seers. He gave them away because he knew that it's a correct path, in the end of which people will survive thru Long Night, thanks to those three dragons.

What leads you to think any of these things?

Megorova · November 26, 2020

20 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

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Because he knew that if he will give those eggs to those dwarfs, then those eggs will hatch, and he knew that this is necessary, that dragons will return. He knew about the upcoming Long Night, and that dragons are necessary for humankind to survive thru it. He knew because Bellegere's and Aegon's descendants are seers, and either the Sealord is one of them, or he is bloodrelated to one of the seers. He gave them away because he knew that it's a correct path, in the end of which people will survive thru Long Night, thanks to those three dragons.

What leads you to think any of these things?

Everyone in that world (especially Braavosi) know that dragons are power. In the past FM and Valyrian dragonlords were enemies. FM killed many of Valyrian masters. When FM take an assignment, before killing their target, they learn a lot of information about him or her. Thus, it's likely that FM were aware that dragonlords are able to control dragons because of their special blood. So isn't it likely that eventually FM decided that they also want to have a power like that? The Sealord of Braavos (who is also a leader of FM) sent his granddaughter, Bellegere, to seduce Aegon, who arrived to Braavos as an envoy from 7K. The Sealord already had three dragon eggs (brought to him by Alissa Farman), so he needed three dragonseed children, to place those eggs into their cradles (like Targaryens did for their children). Nevertheless, even though Bellegere gave birth to three of Aegon's children, they didn't managed to hatch those eggs. Though the Sealord and his successors didn't sold those eggs, nor gave them away. Those eggs were remaining in Braavos for nearly 130 years. Could be that the reason why they kept them for all that time, is because, even though Otheryses didn't managed to hatch any dragons, instead they acquired a different ability, specific for dragonseeds - a gift of foresight. If FM and the Sealords were vehemently against return of the dragons, then they would have destroyed those eggs, and also killed Dany and Viserys, when Targaryen-duo lived in Braavos. Instead the Sealord housed them in his city for five years, and even tried to help them by aiding them with that marriage pact with Martells. Also, the prophecy about the Second Long Night is not a secret, it is well known in Essos, because of the Red Priests. That prophecy is generic, and not specific, it's about the arrival of the Others, return of the dragons, and rebirth of Azor Ahai. Though it's likely that if Otheryses are seers, then they had more precise and specific vision about what will happen in the future, those elements of it that are connected to them. This is from TWOW, in Arya's chapter, about Bellegere: "She was so lovely that the lamps seemed to burn brighter when she passed." Wasn't fire burning brighter in Melisandre's presence? And Mel is a seer. In AFFC - "Cat told the kindly man about the Black Pearl too. "Her true name is Bellegere Otherys," she informed him. It was one of the three things that she had learned. "It is," the priest said softly. "Her mother was Bellonara, but the first Black Pearl was a Bellegere as well." Cat knew that the men off the Brazen Monkey would not care about the name of a courtesan's mother, though. Instead, she asked them for tidings of the Seven Kingdoms, and the war." He knew not only the Black Pearl's real name, not only her mother's name, but also that the First Black Pearl also was a Bellegere. So I think (based on other reasons) that Arya's kindly man, the leader of FM, is the current Sealord of Braavos, and that he is a descendant of the first Bellegere and is bloodrelated to the current Bellegere, and Bellegere is his source of information about the future events. Something like that.

CamiloRP · November 26, 2020

21 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Everyone in that world (especially Braavosi) know that dragons are power. In the past FM and Valyrian dragonlords were enemies. FM killed many of Valyrian masters. When FM take an assignment, before killing their target, they learn a lot of information about him or her. Thus, it's likely that FM were aware that dragonlords are able to control dragons because of their special blood. So isn't it likely that eventually FM decided that they also want to have a power like that? The Sealord of Braavos (who is also a leader of FM) sent his granddaughter, Bellegere, to seduce Aegon, who arrived to Braavos as an envoy from 7K. The Sealord already had three dragon eggs (brought to him by Alissa Farman), so he needed three dragonseed children, to place those eggs into their cradles (like Targaryens did for their children). Nevertheless, even though Bellegere gave birth to three of Aegon's children, they didn't managed to hatch those eggs. Though the Sealord and his successors didn't sold those eggs, nor gave them away. Those eggs were remaining in Braavos for nearly 130 years. Could be that the reason why they kept them for all that time, is because, even though Otheryses didn't managed to hatch any dragons, instead they acquired a different ability, specific for dragonseeds - a gift of foresight. If FM and the Sealords were vehemently against return of the dragons, then they would have destroyed those eggs, and also killed Dany and Viserys, when Targaryen-duo lived in Braavos. Instead the Sealord housed them in his city for five years, and even tried to help them by aiding them with that marriage pact with Martells. Also, the prophecy about the Second Long Night is not a secret, it is well known in Essos, because of the Red Priests. That prophecy is generic, and not specific, it's about the arrival of the Others, return of the dragons, and rebirth of Azor Ahai. Though it's likely that if Otheryses are seers, then they had more precise and specific vision about what will happen in the future, those elements of it that are connected to them. This is from TWOW, in Arya's chapter, about Bellegere: "She was so lovely that the lamps seemed to burn brighter when she passed." Wasn't fire burning brighter in Melisandre's presence? And Mel is a seer. In AFFC - "Cat told the kindly man about the Black Pearl too. "Her true name is Bellegere Otherys," she informed him. It was one of the three things that she had learned. "It is," the priest said softly. "Her mother was Bellonara, but the first Black Pearl was a Bellegere as well." Cat knew that the men off the Brazen Monkey would not care about the name of a courtesan's mother, though. Instead, she asked them for tidings of the Seven Kingdoms, and the war." He knew not only the Black Pearl's real name, not only her mother's name, but also that the First Black Pearl also was a Bellegere. So I think (based on other reasons) that Arya's kindly man, the leader of FM, is the current Sealord of Braavos, and that he is a descendant of the first Bellegere and is bloodrelated to the current Bellegere, and Bellegere is his source of information about the future events. Something like that.

How is any of this evidence that Penny, Groat and their father are able to hatch dragons?

How is any of this evidence that the Sealord is related to Bellegere?

How is any of this evidence that Bellegere's descendants are seers?

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So isn't it likely that eventually FM decided that they also want to have a power like that?

Is there any evidence pointing to this being the case?

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Though the Sealord and his successors didn't sold those eggs, nor gave them away.

Except that you claim they gave them away to some random mummers.

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Those eggs were remaining in Braavos for nearly 130 years. Could be that the reason why they kept them for all that time, is because, even though Otheryses didn't managed to hatch any dragons, instead they acquired a different ability, specific for dragonseeds - a gift of foresight.

How are dragon eggs tied to foresight?

WHat leads you to think they had foresight?

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Also, the prophecy about the Second Long Night is not a secret, it is well known in Essos, because of the Red Priests.

It depends on your religion, followers of the Faith of the Seven don't believe that prophecy, and the Sealord likely doesn't folllow R'hlor.

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He knew not only the Black Pearl's real name, not only her mother's name, but also that the First Black Pearl also was a Bellegere. So I think (based on other reasons) that Arya's kindly man, the leader of FM, is the current Sealord of Braavos, and that he is a descendant of the first Bellegere and is bloodrelated to the current Bellegere, and Bellegere is his source of information about the future events. Something like that.

Nope.

Bellegere's name is known, she holds a famous position, as did her mother, that's why her name is known. The first black pearl is a historical figure, that's why people know her name. You wouldn't claim a random dude to be the president of Spain just because they know the name of the current king, the king's father and the name of some important historical figure. It's common information, it'd be weird for any Braavosi no to know it, specially one as interested in information as the Kindly Man.

The Sealord should be accounted for almost at every moment, specially with him being sick and, I assume, surrounded by medics 24/7. The Kindly Man spedns most of his day in THOBAW, it would be impossible for them to be the same person.

Aebram · November 27, 2020

11 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

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He knew not only the Black Pearl's real name, not only her mother's name, but also that the First Black Pearl also was a Bellegere. So I think (based on other reasons) that Arya's kindly man, the leader of FM, is the current Sealord of Braavos, and that he is a descendant of the first Bellegere and is bloodrelated to the current Bellegere, and Bellegere is his source of information about the future events. Something like that.

Nope.

Bellegere's name is known, she holds a famous position, as did her mother, that's why her name is known. The first black pearl is a historical figure, that's why people know her name. You wouldn't claim a random dude to be the president of Spain just because they know the name of the current king, the king's father and the name of some important historical figure. It's common information, it'd be weird for any Braavosi no to know it, specially one as interested in information as the Kindly Man.

I think Meg is onto something here. That little snippet of the conversation between Arya and the Kindly Man always carches my eye; it seems to have some extra emotion to it.

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"It is," the priest said softly. "Her mother was Bellonara, but the first Black Pearl was a Bellegere as well."

Arya is just turning in her homework, and KM decides to lecture her at length about the names and lineage of some high-class call girls? And he speaks "softly," not with his usual teacher's voice. If I had to guess, I'd say that Bellonara was his lover, and that Bellegere is his daughter.

Megorova · November 27, 2020

21 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

How is any of this evidence that Penny, Groat and their father are able to hatch dragons?

I never said that Penny, Groat and their father are the ones who were supposed to hatch those eggs, or were able to do something like that. What I meant by saying that the Sealord thought that if he will give those eggs to those dwarfs, then those eggs will eventually hatch, will be hatched by someone else, who will get those eggs from those dwarfs, or the dwarfs will give the eggs to someone else and that someone else will give them to whoever will eventually hatch them. It's not a direct path, like 1. give dragon eggs to dwarfs -> 2. eggs hatched; more like - 1. give dragon eggs to dwarfs -> 2., 3., 4., 5., whatever, ... ..... .... X. eggs hatched. Probably the Sealord or his seer saw in a vision a desired outcome (the hatching of those eggs) and saw from what poin will begin a path that will eventually lead to that desired outcome. They didn't knew what will happen to those eggs, who will own them between the time when they will be given to dwarfs and the time when they will hatch. Similar case with Azor Ahai - he knew that to defeat the Others he has to kill his wife. Sacrificing his wife was the starting point, winning the war against the Others was the desired outcome. AA knew that if he will kill Nissa Nissa then he will defeat the Others, though he didn't knew what will happen to him between those points. And the Sealord (or his seer) didn't knew everything that will happen later, in case if they will chose this path, will chose to give those eggs to those dwarfs, they only knew that if they do this then eventually this action will lead to the return of the dragons.

21 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

How is any of this evidence that the Sealord is related to Bellegere?

The first Bellegere was the Sealord's granddaughter. That Sealord was ruler of Braavos in period of time prior, during and after the Dance of the Dragons. Bellegere was approximately Aegon's age, so her grandparents were approximately similar in age to Aegon's grandparents. Aegon's grandparents were Rhaenyra (born in 97 AC) and Daemon (born in 81 AC). King Baelor sent Aegon to Braavos in 161. If Rhaenyra or Daemon were still alive at that point in time, then they would have been 64 and 80 years old. (Hoster Tully was 59-61 years old when he died. Jon Arryn was 78-80. Walder Frey will turn 92 in 300, and he's still an active schemer.) When Aegon hooked up with the first Bellegere Otherys, her grandfather was the acting Sealord of Braavos, and he was the same guy who bought three dragon eggs from Alissa Farman. It's likely that in certain point in time those eggs were given to Bellegere's children - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion. Later, when they didn't managed to hatch those eggs, eventually they were passed to one of their descendants. From then on in each generation of their family one of the girls remained unwed, kept last name Otherys, and became a courtesan - the Black Pearl of Braavos. It's likely that the eggs were passed on to one of her siblings. Those of them that were females, married and changed their last name. That's why the current Sealord, who is a direct descendant of the Sealord, who was Bellegere's gradfather, is not an Otherys but instead an Antaryon (because either his mother or grandmother married with an Antaryon), and he is bloodrelated to the current Black Pearl, even though they have different last names.

The Sealord's title is not hereditary, so the next Sealord is not a son or grandson of the previous Sealord. Even though the Sealord can't pass his title to his children, it doesn't mean that he can't pass his incomes and his private property to them. What he aquired during his service as the Sealord, he can pass to his children. So the eggs were passed on to that Sealord's great grandchildren (Bellenora, Narha and Balerion), and so on, and eventually ended up as property of Ferrego Antaryon, who is, probably grandson of Balerion Otherys and some sort of cousin of the current Bellegere Otherys. Something like this:

Bellegere Otherys + Aegon IV Targaryen

Bellenora (2nd Black Pearl), Narha, Balerion + wife

3rdBP Bellenora's daughter; Balerion's daughter + husband from House Antaryon

4BP Bellonara Otherys Ferrego Antaryon (the current Sealord)

5thBP Bellegere Otherys

So the current Sealord, probably, was a second cousin of Bellegere's mother, so he is Bellegere's second cousin once removed, or some sort of uncle.

Those three dragon eggs were owned by the Sealord who was Bellegere's grandfather, and then they were for several generations owned by people who weren't Sealords, and then they again were owned by a person who was/is the Sealord of Braavos, Ferrego Antaryon, who is a descendant of the Sealord who owned those eggs in the past. According to what information is there in the books, those eggs weren't owned by all the Sealords who ruled Braavos starting from prior the Dance of the Dragons and untill now, they were owned only by two of the Sealords - the one who was grandfather of the first Bellegere Otherys, and by the current one.

If those eggs belonged to Braavos, to the city and its acting ruler, then Ferrego Antaryon wouldn't have been able to give them away. They were his private property, not municipal property. In the distant past they belonged to the grandfather of the first Bellegere Otherys, who was the Sealord of Braavos, and until several years ago they were owned by Ferrego Antaryon. So isn't it obvious that Ferrego Antaryon is a direct descendant of the first Bellegere's grandfather, and thus he is bloodrelated to the current Bellegere, who is also a descendant of the first Bellegere's grandfather?

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

How is any of this evidence that Bellegere's descendants are seers?

The Mystery Knight - ""There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong.""

Targaryens, Blackfyres, Otheryses, Baratheons, etc., basically all of them are carriers of the same dragonseed genes. Thus any of them can inherit an ability to foresee the future.

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

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Those eggs were remaining in Braavos for nearly 130 years. Could be that the reason why they kept them for all that time, is because, even though Otheryses didn't managed to hatch any dragons, instead they acquired a different ability, specific for dragonseeds - a gift of foresight.

How are dragon eggs tied to foresight?

:rolleyes:

They had dragon eggs (sold to them by Alissa Farman). They knew (based on information that they found out about dragonlords, when they were studing their targets, those Valyrian masters whom they were planning to kill) that the bond between a dragon and its master is blood-based. Thus, whoever has dragonseed genes, theoretically can be able to create a blood-bond with a dragon. To create a bond with a Targaryen dragon, you need to have Targaryen genes. People with Targaryen genes are able to create a bond with Targaryen dragons. Thus, to create an viable dragonseed, those FM needed two things - Targaryen genes and an egg/eggs of Targaryen dragons. Thus, it's likely that Alissa Farman didn't just decided on her own to steal dragon eggs. It's likely that an agent of FM or an agent of the Sealord approached her and gave her this suggestion, and promised her a ship in exchange for those eggs.

Thru Alissa they acquired one of the two necessary "ingredients" - 1. dragon eggs. Then thru Bellegere Otherys they acquired a second ingredient - 2. dragon genes (Bellegere's children, fathered by Aegon IV Targaryen, were carriers of those genes). So they added 1 + 2 and were expecting that those eggs will hatch. Though they failed. But in the process of what they did, they found out that being able to bond with a dragon is not the only ability carried by dragon-genes, the gift of foresight is also one of traits characteristic for dragonseeds. Obviously that not all dragonseeds are seers, same as not all dragonseeds have purple eyes. Some dragonseeds have lilac eyes, or blue, or indigo. And some dragonseeds were unable to create a blood-bond with a dragon. And some dragonseeds were unable to hatch dragon eggs. Like Aegon V, who owned a dragon egg since his birth, and that egg didn't hatched even though Egg's parents placed it into Aegon's cradle, when he was born.

Dragon eggs are not tied to foresight. I never said that they did. You just misunderstood everything.

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

WHat leads you to think they had foresight?

Why not? Targaryens had a gift of foresight. Blackfyres had a gift of foresight. And Otheryses are carriers of THE SAME genes. So why the heck not?

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The first black pearl is a historical figure, that's why people know her name.

And how is she a historical figure? What heroic deed has she done to gain herself a place in the history? She was a captain of a trading ship, she was one of the Sealord's many grandchildren, and she was fucking with one of Princes from 7K, and with dozens of other men. None of that makes her important enough to be known and still remembered amongst people of Braavos who live now 100+ years after Bellegere's time.

She had one short mentioning in the World Book, writen by 7K's maester, in 7K. But so was Cassella Vaith, who also was one of Aegon's mistresses. I doubt that anyone in Braavos has ever read that book.

23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The Sealord should be accounted for almost at every moment, specially with him being sick and, I assume, surrounded by medics 24/7. The Kindly Man spedns most of his day in THOBAW, it would be impossible for them to be the same person.

We'll see about that. If they are not the same person, it's likely that they are at least bloodrelated. And if they are the same person, then it's highly questionable whether the Sealord is really dying, or is he faking his state, to later fake his death, and to leave his post as the Sealord, to completely dedicate all of his reamining life-time to his service to the Many-Faced God. If Jaqen and Syrio is the same person, then it heightens the possibility that Ferrego Antaryon and the Kindly Man is also the same person. Because the Kindly Man is Jaqen's boss, and Ferrego was/is Syrio's boss.

13 hours ago, Aebram said:

Arya is just turning in her homework, and KM decides to lecture her at length about the names and lineage of some high-class call girls? And he speaks "softly," not with his usual teacher's voice. If I had to guess, I'd say that Bellonara was his lover, and that Bellegere is his daughter.

Or Bellegere is his niece, while Bellonara was his sister. Or, based on how old is he, he could be Bellonara's father and Bellegere's grandfather. The option with a ex-lover and a daughter is also a possibility.

CamiloRP · November 27, 2020

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I never said that Penny, Groat and their father are the ones who were supposed to hatch those eggs, or were able to do something like that. What I meant by saying that the Sealord thought that if he will give those eggs to those dwarfs, then those eggs will eventually hatch, will be hatched by someone else, who will get those eggs from those dwarfs, or the dwarfs will give the eggs to someone else and that someone else will give them to whoever will eventually hatch them. It's not a direct path, like 1. give dragon eggs to dwarfs -> 2. eggs hatched; more like - 1. give dragon eggs to dwarfs -> 2., 3., 4., 5., whatever, ... ..... .... X. eggs hatched. Probably the Sealord or his seer saw in a vision a desired outcome (the hatching of those eggs) and saw from what poin will begin a path that will eventually lead to that desired outcome. They didn't knew what will happen to those eggs, who will own them between the time when they will be given to dwarfs and the time when they will hatch. Similar case with Azor Ahai - he knew that to defeat the Others he has to kill his wife. Sacrificing his wife was the starting point, winning the war against the Others was the desired outcome. AA knew that if he will kill Nissa Nissa then he will defeat the Others, though he didn't knew what will happen to him between those points. And the Sealord (or his seer) didn't knew everything that will happen later, in case if they will chose this path, will chose to give those eggs to those dwarfs, they only knew that if they do this then eventually this action will lead to the return of the dragons.

First of all, it's not comparable to AA, as he killed his wife explicitly to make his sword and use it to kill Others. He didn't kill his wife because it would set up a series of random events that end up in the death of the Others.

Second of all, you are claiming that the Sealord gave penny and co his eggs based on the fact that he had eggs and that penny claimed she received a gift. But there's no indication that said gift was the eggs (I would imagine that Penny and her family would be set for life if they had three dragon eggs, and wouldn't need to keep performing, living in brothels and such) and no reason we have to suspect the Sealord for wanting to give them the eggs, saying 'a seer told him it would set up a random series of events' it's pretty much the explaining motives version of 'a wizard did it'. And there's nothing in the text pointing to the fact that the Sealord has 'seers' or the fact that Penny and family would set up a random series of events with a dragon egg, or the fact that penny ever had in her possession a dragon egg. All the seer and prophecy talk is a 'might be' that you use to justify the reached conclusion, not a clue that made you reach said conclusion.

26 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The first Bellegere was the Sealord's granddaughter. That Sealord was ruler of Braavos in period of time prior, during and after the Dance of the Dragons.

I can't find anywhere that states this, do you have a link or something? And I don't mean the year in which she was active or anything, I mean something stating that said Sealord didn't die shorlty after or anything, as far as I can tell we have no evidence on said Sealord but the fact that his son fucked Bellegere.

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Bellegere was approximately Aegon's age, so her grandparents were approximately similar in age to Aegon's grandparents.

That's not necessarily the case. Walder Frey's wife is pregnant, that child will be approximately the age of Harry The Heir's children, does that mean that WF and HTH are of a similar age? No. In this story it's not uncommon to have children by age sixteen and it's not uncommon to have children by age eighty, so having similar aged children doesn't mean that the parents are of a similar age.

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When Aegon hooked up with the first Bellegere Otherys, her grandfather was the acting Sealord of Braavos, and he was the same guy who bought three dragon eggs from Alissa Farman.

How do you know the guy was still Sealord? he could've died in many ways.

Furthermore, the eggs where sold in 54 AC, while Aegon met Belleger in 161 AC. 107 years later, it's rather unlikely that someone would be Sealord for over a century, specially given that it's a democratically elected position, and people tend to chose rulers with experience, so at the very least he was twenty years old, meaning he would be 127 by 161 AC, highly unlikely. And making him at least 47 years older that Daemon.

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It's likely that in certain point in time those eggs were given to Bellegere's children - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion.

Since neither Bellegere nor her descendants seem to be regarded as nobles or members of the rich and powerful, I doubt the Sealord would give such precious inheritance to them. So while it's possible, it's not likely.

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Later, when they didn't managed to hatch those eggs, eventually they were passed to one of their descendants. From then on in each generation of their family one of the girls remained unwed, kept last name Otherys, and became a courtesan - the Black Pearl of Braavos. It's likely that the eggs were passed on to one of her siblings. Those of them that were females, married and changed their last name. That's why the current Sealord, who is a direct descendant of the Sealord, who was Bellegere's gradfather, is not an Otherys but instead an Antaryon (because either his mother or grandmother married with an Antaryon), and he is bloodrelated to the current Black Pearl, even though they have different last names.

But you have no evidence for him being a descendant of Bellegere, just excuses for why he might not share a last name, but no evidence still.

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The Sealord's title is not hereditary, so the next Sealord is not a son or grandson of the previous Sealord. Even though the Sealord can't pass his title to his children, it doesn't mean that he can't pass his incomes and his private property to them. What he aquired during his service as the Sealord, he can pass to his children. So the eggs were passed on to that Sealord's great grandchildren (Bellenora, Narha and Balerion), and so on, and eventually ended up as property of Ferrego Antaryon, who is, probably grandson of Balerion Otherys and some sort of cousin of the current Bellegere Otherys.

There's no reason to assume Ferrego is related to any of them, there's also no reason to assume he has the dragon eggs. As you said, they aren't passed with the title, so he shouldn't get them from there, and it isn't likely that the Sealord would give them to someone that won't carry his name.

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So the current Sealord, probably, was a second cousin of Bellegere's mother, so he is Bellegere's second cousin once removed, or some sort of uncle.

Not probably. There's nothing that makes us think it a likely scenario.

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Those three dragon eggs were owned by the Sealord who was Bellegere's grandfather, and then they were for several generations owned by people who weren't Sealords, and then they again were owned by a person who was/is the Sealord of Braavos, Ferrego Antaryon, who is a descendant of the Sealord who owned those eggs in the past.

What evidence is there that Ferrego has the eggs? What evidence is there that he's descendant of teh Sealord who purchased them?

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If those eggs belonged to Braavos, to the city and its acting ruler, then Ferrego Antaryon wouldn't have been able to give them away. They were his private property, not municipal property.

Well, you are trying to prove he gave them away, so you can't use it as evidence, we don't know that he gave them away, don't we?

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In the distant past they belonged to the grandfather of the first Bellegere Otherys, who was the Sealord of Braavos, and until several years ago they were owned by Ferrego Antaryon. So isn't it obvious that Ferrego Antaryon is a direct descendant of the first Bellegere's grandfather, and thus he is bloodrelated to the current Bellegere, who is also a descendant of the first Bellegere's grandfather?

Well, since we don't know that Ferrego even owned them, no, it's not. And if he did, it more likely points to the eggs being property of Braavos instead of the Sealord. As no one would give such a valuable thing to someone who doesn't carry your family name, as it makes said thing stop belonging to the family.

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The Mystery Knight - ""There have always been Targaryens who dreamed of things to come, since long before the Conquest," Bloodraven said, "so we should not be surprised if from time to time a Blackfyre displays the gift as well. Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong.""

Targaryens, Blackfyres, Otheryses, Baratheons, etc., basically all of them are carriers of the same dragonseed genes. Thus any of them can inherit an ability to foresee the future.

That's not evidence, that's a possibility, but we have no indication that there are any Otherys seers. If I told you that I could run at 26 mph, and you asked for evidence, me pulling a quote that says that the fastest human speed ever recorded is 27.8 mph is no evidence of me being able to run at such speeds. Also, the Targaryen genes have been diluted as fuck in the Otherys, as 149 years and many generations have passes. We don't know of any Otherys that shows Valiryan features.

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They had dragon eggs (sold to them by Alissa Farman). They knew (based on information that they found out about dragonlords, when they were studing their targets, those Valyrian masters whom they were planning to kill) that the bond between a dragon and its master is blood-based. Thus, whoever has dragonseed genes, theoretically can be able to create a blood-bond with a dragon. To create a bond with a Targaryen dragon, you need to have Targaryen genes. People with Targaryen genes are able to create a bond with Targaryen dragons. Thus, to create an viable dragonseed, those FM needed two things - Targaryen genes and an egg/eggs of Targaryen dragons. Thus, it's likely that Alissa Farman didn't just decided on her own to steal dragon eggs. It's likely that an agent of FM or an agent of the Sealord approached her and gave her this suggestion, and promised her a ship in exchange for those eggs.

Thru Alissa they acquired one of the two necessary "ingredients" - 1. dragon eggs. Then thru Bellegere Otherys they acquired a second ingredient - 2. dragon genes (Bellegere's children, fathered by Aegon IV Targaryen, were carriers of those genes). So they added 1 + 2 and were expecting that those eggs will hatch. Though they failed. But in the process of what they did, they found out that being able to bond with a dragon is not the only ability carried by dragon-genes, the gift of foresight is also one of traits characteristic for dragonseeds. Obviously that not all dragonseeds are seers, same as not all dragonseeds have purple eyes. Some dragonseeds have lilac eyes, or blue, or indigo. And some dragonseeds were unable to create a blood-bond with a dragon. And some dragonseeds were unable to hatch dragon eggs. Like Aegon V, who owned a dragon egg since his birth, and that egg didn't hatched even though Egg's parents placed it into Aegon's cradle, when he was born.

Dragon eggs are not tied to foresight. I never said that they did. You just misunderstood everything.

What you write here is not something that we know happened, it's something you say it could have happened without any evidence that it did. And based on the fact that we don't know of the Braavosi pursuing any more Valiryan genes by breeding with the Targs, Lyseni or any other, and the fact that we don't know of any Black Pearl or Black Pearl descendant displaying Valiryan traits I would say that it isn't likely. Keep in mind that the Targaryens are incredibly inbreed, which would cause them to display more prominently some family traits, and even them only some of them had special powers, the Black Pearl descendants are, assuming five generations have passed (which is being really generous, as it assumes 30 something years generations, and in ASOIAF, they are closer to 20) only 3,875% Valiryan, which is to say 96.125% non Valiryan, making it pretty unlikely that they would show Valiryan traits.

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Why not? Targaryens had a gift of foresight. Blackfyres had a gift of foresight. And Otheryses are carriers of THE SAME genes. So why the heck not?

Well, apart from what I listed above, you still need some kind of hint for it being the case, and there's none. Robert, Gendry, Renley, Edric, Bella, all have a higher Targaryen gene percentage than any Otheris would, and still none of them displayed foresight. Stannis displayed some, but it was likely not tied to his genes.

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And how is she a historical figure? What heroic deed has she done to gain herself a place in the history? She was a captain of a trading ship, she was one of the Sealord's many grandchildren, and she was fucking with one of Princes from 7K, and with dozens of other men. None of that makes her important enough to be known and still remembered amongst people of Braavos who live now 100+ years after Bellegere's time.

She had one short mentioning in the World Book, writen by 7K's maester, in 7K. But so was Cassella Vaith, who also was one of Aegon's mistresses. I doubt that anyone in Braavos has ever read that book.

She was the founder of the long line of Black Pearls, the top branch of courtesans, the closest thing Braavos has to a top model. Having a small mention in a book about the entire world written by a Westerosi, kind of highlights her importance to Braavosi. She's a known figure. Daena, a common mummer, knows a lot about her. Why wouldn't the head of a powerful Braavosi organization that cares a lot about information?

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We'll see about that. If they are not the same person, it's likely that they are at least bloodrelated. And if they are the same person, then it's highly questionable whether the Sealord is really dying, or is he faking his state, to later fake his death, and to leave his post as the Sealord, to completely dedicate all of his reamining life-time to his service to the Many-Faced God. If Jaqen and Syrio is the same person, then it heightens the possibility that Ferrego Antaryon and the Kindly Man is also the same person. Because the Kindly Man is Jaqen's boss, and Ferrego was/is Syrio's boss.

But you still provide no evidence for them being the same person. Why is it likely that they are bloodrelated? What points you in that direction?

Why would the faceless waste one of their best agents just as a bodyguard? Spying on the Sealord makes sense, but not if you are the Sealord.

Megorova · November 27, 2020

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

All the seer and prophecy talk is a 'might be' that you use to justify the reached conclusion, not a clue that made you reach said conclusion.

There are four clues: 1. Penny's personality, 2. the Sealord's personality, 3. how she phrased what she said, 4. in The Mystery Knight novel mummer-dwarfs served a role of curriers that reunited a dragon egg that belonged to Targaryens with their rightful owners/Targaryens.

Concerning the 4th clue - GRRM used a lot of parallels between events in the main series and side-sources (Dunk&Egg novels, The World Book, Fire&Blood, etc.), and he also likes for the history in his books to repeat. In TMK he used "mummer-dwarfs + dragon egg", so could be that he will use/already used the same element in the main series (could be that those three dragon eggs, that Illyrio gave to Dany as her wedding gift, were acquired by him from the Sealord of Braavos thru mummer-dwarfs. One of the previous Sealords owned three dragon eggs, and there was three mummer-dwarfs that performed a show for the current Sealord).

Concerning the 2nd clue - the current Sealord, Ferrego Antaryon, is an eccentric. The story how he gave a title of the First Sword to Syrio Forel is an evidence of that (evidence of Ferrego's eccentricity). Now think - what sort of "a grand gift" could be granted by such an eccentric?

1st - Penny is a bit simple minded. Evidence: just read thru her conversations with Tyrion. The girl is wearing pink glasses. She's naive and delusional. Someone like that is unable to lie convincingly, or to craft a convinsing lie on a spot, if she made a slip of the tongue and nearly said something which she was forbidden to say. Like - her father forbade her to tell anyone that the Sealord gave them three dragon eggs as a reward for their preformance. She's dumb. So when she was telling that story to Tyrion, she nearly told him "We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a dragon egg." instead of making a last second correction/save with that "a ... a grand gift".

So it's all about WHO said, about WHOM, and HOW was it phrased, + GRRM had already used in his other story element "mummer dwarfs + dragon egg", and he's a King of Parallels.

This is it -> "We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a ... a grand gift". <- I figured out that those grand gifts were dragon eggs, based on this sentence.

"the Sealord of Braavos", "each of us", "a ... a grand gift". This "..." there SPEAKS VOLUMES. And so do "E-A-C-H OF US" instead of writing "he gave us a grand gift". GRRM, by phrasing what Penny said, in the way he did, by writing that "each of us", he gave to readers a suggestion - COUNT THE DWARFS, THERE ARE T-H-R-E-E OF THEM. Now, dear readers, use your brains to connect the dots.

In the past MUMMER-DWARFS were used as a curriers to transport a DRAGON EGG. In the past one of the Sealords owned THREE dragon eggs. THREE mummer-dwarfs. The SEALORD. A grand gift for EACH of them.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

I can't find anywhere that states this, do you have a link or something?

No, the exact years when this or that Sealord ruled, isn't given anywhere. Though the Sealords rule for life, and if Bellegere's grandfather, who was the Sealord in 161, when Aegon came to Braavos as an envoy, was already dead, then in the World Book it would have been written that Bellegere was granddaughter of a late Sealord (an EX-Sealord, dead Sealord).

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

as far as I can tell we have no evidence on said Sealord but the fact that his son fucked Bellegere.

His son fucked/married a Princess from Summer Islands, Bellegere's future mother. The Sealord's son is Bellegere's father, not her lover.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Furthermore, the eggs where sold in 54 AC, while Aegon met Belleger in 161 AC. 107 years later, it's rather unlikely that someone would be Sealord for over a century, specially given that it's a democratically elected position, and people tend to chose rulers with experience, so at the very least he was twenty years old, meaning he would be 127 by 161 AC, highly unlikely. And making him at least 47 years older that Daemon.

You're right, seems that the Sealord who was trade-partner with Alissa Farman and the Sealord who was Bellegere's grandfather are indeed not the same person.

That first Sealord had a son, who in 49 AC attended the Golden Wedding in 7K. Then there was a son of the Sealord who was betrothed to Laena Velaryon <- this Sealord died in 105 AC. So Alissa's trade-partner died even before 105.

There's some sort of inconsistency in what GRRM wrote, could be that he or his co-writers made a mistake. This ->

King Daeron I, who ruled in 157-161, planned to marry one of his sisters to the Sealord. Thus that Sealord was unwed and thus, most likely, young. Then Daeron died, Baelor became the King, and in 161 sent Aegon as an envoy to Braavos, and at that time Braavos was ruled by Bellegere's grandfather. So either the previous Sealord died young and then the people of Braavos had chosen as their new Sealord an old guy who already had granchildren, or GRRM incorrectly calculated generations, or didn't checked what he wrote about the Sealords in different parts of the World Book, and that's why there are inconsitences.

So the Sealord who was Alissa's trade-partner ruled Braavos in 54, then after him there was several others, then Bellegere's grandfather ruled in 161, after him there was sevarl others (probably), and now there's Ferrego Antaryon.

Those three are (probably) bloodrelated, and each of them owned those three dragon eggs that were passed down in their family, while those other Sealords, that ruled in Braavos in time-slots between those three, didn't owned dragon eggs. Or some other option.

I was wrong about generations, though it doesn't change the fact that one Sealord owned three dragon eggs, one of the Sealords after him was a great-grandfather of three dragonseeds, and a possibility that one of their successors was a descendant of Bellegere and inherited those eggs, same as his father/or mother, and became a Sealord same as his ancestors.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

But you have no evidence for him being a descendant of Bellegere, just excuses for why he might not share a last name, but no evidence still.

What evidence is there that Jon's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark? - > There's no EVIDENCE. There's just clues and hints. We can't perform on Jon and Lyanna's remnants a DNA-match test. We will find out the truth only when GRRM will reveal it in the books. Same with my theory about possible bloodrelation between the current Sealord and Otheryses, and whether he owned three dragon eggs, previously owned by one of his predecessors, and whether he gave them as a gift to mummer-dwarfs or not.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

What evidence is there that Ferrego has the eggs? What evidence is there that he's descendant of teh Sealord who purchased them?

He doesn't have them now. He gave them to Hop-Bean and his children several years ago.

IF he had those eggs, then he is the descendant of the original owner. How else would he have gotten them? And also, if he didn't owned them all along, thru inheritance from his parent, the he wouldn't have given them away. It was easy for him to give them, because he inherited them, he didn't had to pay for them, so for him they didn't had a monetary value/cost. He got them for free, so he easily gave them away also for free.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, you are trying to prove he gave them away, so you can't use it as evidence, we don't know that he gave them away, don't we?

Yes, we don't KNOW. It's just a theory (or a hypothesis) that he owned them and then gave them away as a grand gift to Hop-Bean and his children. Let's wait and see whether my theory will be proven to be correct. GRRM will provide the evidence. In his next books.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

If I told you that I could run at 26 mph, and you asked for evidence, me pulling a quote that says that the fastest human speed ever recorded is 27.8 mph is no evidence of me being able to run at such speeds.

Anyone can run with that speed. If he or she will be chased by Ridley Scott's Alien Queen. If you were chased by her, I think you could have run even faster than 26 mph. I belive in that even without any evidences.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Also, the Targaryen genes have been diluted as fuck in the Otherys, as 149 years and many generations have passes. We don't know of any Otherys that shows Valiryan features.

Brown Ben Plumm. His Targaryen ancestor, Viserys Plumm, was half-brother of three Otheryses. The amount of Targaryen genes that he has is still enough for him to be recognized by Targaryen dragons as their kin. What matters is blood/genes, not looks.

Jaehaerys' and Shaera's mother was a Blackwood, their father was a son of a Dayne-mother and a father whose mother was a Dornishwoman. Still Aerys and Rhaella were pure Valyrians, at least in their looks. Stannis Baratheon is 12,5% Targaryen (his grandmother, Rhaelle, was half-Targaryen). Those 12,5% of dragongenes is enough for Melisandre to use it as a power source for her magic spells.

The current Bellegere seems to be the Fifth Black Pearl. Bellenora, who was 50% Targaryen, seems to be Bellegere's great-grandmother. Thus Bellegere is 6,25% Targaryen. Unless Otheryses followed the same pattern as their Targaryen ancestors, and intermarried, sibling to sibling, for a few generations, or even only once would have been enough. What if Bellenora became a Black Pearl, same as her mother, who was the First, while her siblings, Narha and Balerion, married to each other? In this case their child could have inherited 50% of Targaryen genes from the father and 50% from the mother, in which case he or she was a pureblooded Targaryen (by genes). I have a theory that an Otherys-girl from this second generation, Bellegere's and Aegon's granddaughter, either married or was in a relationship with the Bastard of Harrenhal (secret son of Aegon IV and his mistress Jeyne Lothston, who was also Aegon's secret bastard-daughter. So the Bastard of Harrenhal was a pureblooded Targaryen). I think that this Otherys-girl and the Bastard of Harrenhal had a child or children, and one of them was a sellsword from Braavos who was Littlefinger's great-grandfather. The Sellsword migrated to Westeros, while his other siblings remained in Braavos, and by blood they were 100% Targaryens. They would have been from the same generation as the mother of the current Bellegere, something like Bellonara's second cousins.

Obviously that is merely a speculation, what if.

So either Bellegere is (6,25%) 1/16 Targaryen, or she can have more than that amount of dragonseed genes from her other ancestors. Or she has a bit of Targaryen genes, while her more distant relatives have purer dragonseed blood, and it's those relatives of hers who are seers. Or not. Just a theory.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Why would the faceless waste one of their best agents just as a bodyguard? Spying on the Sealord makes sense, but not if you are the Sealord.

He was serving as a bodyguard in the beginning of his career, before he became an FM. Then Syrio became a Faceless Man, served as FM for who knows how many years, and just recently was sent by his boss on a mission to Westeros.

Possible clue that Syrio was an FM, AFFC, Arya I: "The dock was shadowed, the steps steep. The temple’s black tile roof came to a sharp peak, like the houses along the canals. Arya chewed her lip. Syrio came from Braavos. He might have visited this temple. He might have climbed those steps. She grabbed a ring and pulled herself up onto the dock."

If GRRM by writing this tells readers that Syrio indeed visited this temple, then this is an evidence that he is an FM. Because there's only three reasons for people to visit the House of Black and White - 1. to die, 2. to request an assassination of someone else, 3. to join their organisation. In all three cases the outcome would have been the same - if Syrio came to that temple, then he became an FM. 1. Either he died and his face and identity was taken by Faceless Men and de-facto he became an FM (or at least his face did). 2. If he asked them to kill someone else, then him, a mere poore bravo wouldn't have had the kind of money that they would have requested as a price, so instead of paying with gold, he would have paid them same as Waif did, he became one of them. 3. Or a direct approach - he became an FM. Possibly because he found out that his boss, Ferrego Antaryon, the Sealord of Braavos, is the leader of the Faceless Men, because this two posts is the same, like two sides of the same coin. The official one, as the Sealord, and an additional one, to rule the city from the shadows as the leader of the Faceless Men. He's supporting his boss, so he joined his shadow-organisation to serve to him always, not only when he is posing as a Sealord.

4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

But you still provide no evidence for them being the same person. Why is it likely that they are bloodrelated? What points you in that direction?

It's just a theory. Get over it.

Evidence. Evidence. Evidence. :rolleyes:

Chill.

When the book will go on sale, there will be evidences there. Or not. Because it's just a theory. So it could be wrong.

CamiloRP · November 28, 2020

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Concerning the 2nd clue - the current Sealord, Ferrego Antaryon, is an eccentric. The story how he gave a title of the First Sword to Syrio Forel is an evidence of that (evidence of Ferrego's eccentricity). Now think - what sort of "a grand gift" could be granted by such an eccentric?

First of all, we don't know if the current Sealord and Syrio's Sealord are the same person. Second of all, that story doesn't point to him being an eccentric, I personally think it points to a glamoured cat and needing a bodyguard with keen eyes, able to see through glamours.

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1st - Penny is a bit simple minded. Evidence: just read thru her conversations with Tyrion. The girl is wearing pink glasses. She's naive and delusional. Someone like that is unable to lie convincingly, or to craft a convinsing lie on a spot, if she made a slip of the tongue and nearly said something which she was forbidden to say. Like - her father forbade her to tell anyone that the Sealord gave them three dragon eggs as a reward for their preformance. She's dumb. So when she was telling that story to Tyrion, she nearly told him "We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a dragon egg." instead of making a last second correction/save with that "a ... a grand gift".

So 1st and 3rd are the same, and a whole theory can't depend on just one pause.

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So it's all about WHO said, about WHOM, and HOW was it phrased, + GRRM had already used in his other story element "mummer dwarfs + dragon egg", and he's a King of Parallels.

This is it -> "We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a ... a grand gift". <- I figured out that those grand gifts were dragon eggs, based on this sentence.

"the Sealord of Braavos", "each of us", "a ... a grand gift". This "..." there SPEAKS VOLUMES. And so do "E-A-C-H OF US" instead of writing "he gave us a grand gift". GRRM, by phrasing what Penny said, in the way he did, by writing that "each of us", he gave to readers a suggestion - COUNT THE DWARFS, THERE ARE T-H-R-E-E OF THEM. Now, dear readers, use your brains to connect the dots.

This is called jumping to conclusions, not connecting the dots. If you where to learn that the Sealord had three children would you assume that the gifts were the children? of course not. Because it makes no sense, and neither does giving such valuable treasures, treasures of such importance the Iron Bank forgave the Iron Throne's debt to keep, to simple mummers.

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So the Sealord who was Alissa's trade-partner ruled Braavos in 54, then after him there was several others, then Bellegere's grandfather ruled in 161, after him there was sevarl others (probably), and now there's Ferrego Antaryon.

Those three are (probably) bloodrelated, and each of them owned those three dragon eggs that were passed down in their family, while those other Sealords, that ruled in Braavos in time-slots between those three, didn't owned dragon eggs. Or some other option.

You are mistaking the meaning of the world probably. You have no reason to suspect that they where blood related or that all three owned the dragon eggs.

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What evidence is there that Jon's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark? - > There's no EVIDENCE. There's just clues and hints. We can't perform on Jon and Lyanna's remnants a DNA-match test. We will find out the truth only when GRRM will reveal it in the books. Same with my theory about possible bloodrelation between the current Sealord and Otheryses, and whether he owned three dragon eggs, previously owned by one of his predecessors, and whether he gave them as a gift to mummer-dwarfs or not.

And there's still a possibility that they aren't Jon's parents. But it's not the same, is it? There are a lot of hints in the text that point to something like it happening, and the question of Jon's parentage is asked many times in the book. There are no hints that the current Sealord descends from Bellegere.

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He doesn't have them now. He gave them to Hop-Bean and his children several years ago.

IF he had those eggs, then he is the descendant of the original owner. How else would he have gotten them? And also, if he didn't owned them all along, thru inheritance from his parent, the he wouldn't have given them away. It was easy for him to give them, because he inherited them, he didn't had to pay for them, so for him they didn't had a monetary value/cost. He got them for free, so he easily gave them away also for free.

What makes you think that he ever had them? You claim that he's related to Otherys because he had the dragon eggs, then you claim had the dragon eggs because he's related to Otherys, that's a circular argument. So, ignoring logical fallacies, what leads you to think the current Sealord ever had the eggs?

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Yes, we don't KNOW. It's just a theory (or a hypothesis) that he owned them and then gave them away as a grand gift to Hop-Bean and his children. Let's wait and see whether my theory will be proven to be correct. GRRM will provide the evidence. In his next books.

It's not a theory, a theory is an explanation for something that has been tested and somewhat confirmed.

It's not a hypothesis, a hypothesis is a proposed explanation for something that can be tested.

What you have here is an idea maybe, one based little on the text and one that's not very likely to be true.

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Anyone can run with that speed. If he or she will be chased by Ridley Scott's Alien Queen. If you were chased by her, I think you could have run even faster than 26 mph. I belive in that even without any evidences.

You're still not answering what I really said, I asked for reasons you think it is so, you answered with "it's possible". Yes, but it's also possible that Hizdar is a descendant of Nettles, you need to provide something more than the possibility.

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It's just a theory. Get over it.

Evidence. Evidence. Evidence.

Chill.

When the book will go on sale, there will be evidences there. Or not. Because it's just a theory. So it could be wrong.

Theories requiere support, logical bases, not just wild guesses and speculation based on other theories with as little support.

TheLastWolf · November 28, 2020

Remind me never to argue with @Megorova

Megorova · November 28, 2020

12 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It's not a theory, a theory is an explanation for something that has been tested and somewhat confirmed.

It's not a hypothesis, a hypothesis is a proposed explanation for something that can be tested.

What you have here is an idea maybe, one based little on the text and one that's not very likely to be true.

12 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Theories requiere support, logical bases, not just wild guesses and speculation based on other theories with as little support.

What if I am right? What if the eggs that Illyrio gave to Dany, are the same eggs that were previously owned by the Sealord who was Elissa's trade-partner, then by the latest Sealord who gave them as a gift to mummer-dwarfs, and from those dwarfs those eggs went to Illyrio? What if that's exactly how it happened?

You insist that there is no evidence for any of it. Though, if there is no evidence, but I am right with this my theory/hypothesis/idea/assumption/speculation/call it whatever you want, then how did I figured it out? Is it a lucky guess, or does it mean that I am a seer?

Personally I think that there's a lot of subtle clues/evidences for multiple mysteries inserted by GRRM in ASOIAF. I see those clues, while other readers don't.

For example - 1. the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar; 2. Rhaego is alive; 3. Dawn of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer; 4. Duncan the Tall is a son of Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen; 5. Old Nan is the mother of Dunk's child/children and Brienne's ancestor; 6. Barristan Selmy is a Blackfyre (by blood, on his mother's side); 7. septa Lemore's real name is Jeyne Swann; 8. fAegon's parents are Jeyne Swann and Barristan Selmy; 9. the grand gift received by Hop-Bean, Penny and Oppo from the Sealord of Braavos were three dragon eggs, the same that Illyrio gave to Dany as her wedding gift, the same that Elissa Farman sold to the Sealord of Braavos; 10. Petyr Baelish is bloodrelated to Catelyn Tully (thru House Whent), and both of them are carriers of dragon-genes, descended from Aegon IV.

I'm sure that in the remaining two books GRRM will reveal those 10 elements. If it will turn out that I was right about all ten of them, would you then agree that me, figuring out those mysteries, was not just a lucky guess, that it's an evidence that there actually was evidences/clues for all of that in the books, and that I uncovered those mysteries, while other readers didn't, because I'm smarter than them? Would you agree then, that there indeed was a figurative trail of bread crumbs/clues/evidences left by GRRM, which has led me to a metaphorical Gingerbread house/uncovering of those mysteries? Will you admit then that there were clues/evidences? If 10 out of 10 will turn out to be correct, don't you agree that 100% guessing is just impossible? Thus, it wasn't guessing, it was logical deduction, and thus there were evidences/clues in the books, because deduction is based on clues not on mere guessing. If I will be 100% correct (about those 10), will you agree that there was indeed evidences there, and you just didn't saw them as such?

ravenous reader · November 29, 2020

On 11/24/2020 at 4:21 AM, Unit A2 said:

The reason has been covered here before by more than one poster. I have my own theory and am presenting it here for the benefit of the new people.

The Sealord was guarding against the faceless men. He was looking for somebody who cannot be fooled by the disguise. The effectiveness of the disguise is dependent on suggestion and the susceptibility of the receiver. Syrio doesn't fall for the BS. He can see right through the faceless men's tricks. The faceless men have been around for a long time. Important people like the Sealord and wealthy merchants will have found a way to counter their tricks. A formal method for training Anti-Assassination personnel would have been created and those with strong minds were taught to develop methodologies for countering the faceless men. Syrio can see through the mental fog and recognized a common cat.

Your idea makes good sense symbolically. Consider the following:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

She was in luck tonight. The tavern was near empty, and she was able to claim a quiet corner not far from the fire. No sooner had she settled there and crossed her legs than something brushed up against her thigh. "You again?" said the blind girl. She scratched his head behind one ear, and the cat jumped up into her lap and began to purr. Braavos was full of cats, and no place more than Pynto's. The old pirate believed they brought good luck and kept his tavern free of vermin. "You know me, don't you?" she whispered. Cats were not fooled by a mummer's moles. They remembered Cat of the Canals.

This is an example of what @LmL has termed GRRM’s characteristic “fractal symbolism”: Thus, the cat sees Cat who then sees through the cat’s eyes!

As a Faceless Man (FM) trainee, Arya has changed the appearance of her face (to ‘Blind Beth’), yet nevertheless the cat can ‘see through’ the guise to recognise her underlying, former identity as ‘Cat.’ Animals generally seem more capable naturally than humans of the ‘True seeing’, as evidenced by the fact that Casso, King of Seals (See-ls?), is also not taken in by FM tricks.

This is an allegory for the parable of the Sealord’s cat, making Syrio not only the one to see the cat’s true identity, but from which it also follows from a certain perspective that Syrio can be seen as the Sealord’s cat himself. In other words, Syrio (See-rio?) facilitates the Sealord’s seeing (pun on See-Lord), analogously to how the cat enables blind Arya/Beth to see via skinchanging.

This convoluted, ‘fractal’ role-exchange demonstrates a key theme of the author’s whereby “the hunters become the hunted,” and vice versa. Paradoxically, in order to overcome the antagonist, one must ‘become’ the antagonist, thereby no longer really ‘antagonising’ them, but rather neutralising them, utilising their own element against them, a la the Knight of the Mirror Shield. Fighting fire with fire, ice with ice (this would involve being an ice wight like Coldhands or skinchanging an Other/ice dragon, etc.), or catching cats by taking on the characteristics, even slipping into the skin, of a cat oneself.

Hence, Syrio’s first lesson of catching cats — foreshadowing that in order to outwit Lannisters (lions), the Stark girl (wolf) must learn to think/see/move like a cat:

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“And who are you [No one!], the proud lord said
That I must bow so low?
Only a cat of a different coat [warg!]
That's all the truth I know
In a coat of gold or a coat of red
A lion still has claws
And mine are long and sharp, my lord
As long and sharp as yours [Needle!]“

On 11/24/2020 at 3:22 PM, Mourning Star said:

Occam's Razor doesn't apply to works of fiction, there is no reason to suspect simpler solution when dealing with fiction, let alone fantasy.

Spot on! One of my pet peeves is the pretentious application of ‘Occam’s Razor’, ‘Chekhov’s Gun’, and, worst of all, Science, to fantasy literary analysis.

For the purposes of ASOIAF, the only thing that matters is a coherent symbolic reading.

CamiloRP · November 30, 2020

On 11/28/2020 at 12:24 PM, Megorova said:

What if I am right? What if the eggs that Illyrio gave to Dany, are the same eggs that were previously owned by the Sealord who was Elissa's trade-partner, then by the latest Sealord who gave them as a gift to mummer-dwarfs, and from those dwarfs those eggs went to Illyrio? What if that's exactly how it happened?

You insist that there is no evidence for any of it. Though, if there is no evidence, but I am right with this my theory/hypothesis/idea/assumption/speculation/call it whatever you want, then how did I figured it out? Is it a lucky guess, or does it mean that I am a seer?

Personally I think that there's a lot of subtle clues/evidences for multiple mysteries inserted by GRRM in ASOIAF. I see those clues, while other readers don't.

For example - 1. the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar; 2. Rhaego is alive; 3. Dawn of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer; 4. Duncan the Tall is a son of Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen; 5. Old Nan is the mother of Dunk's child/children and Brienne's ancestor; 6. Barristan Selmy is a Blackfyre (by blood, on his mother's side); 7. septa Lemore's real name is Jeyne Swann; 8. fAegon's parents are Jeyne Swann and Barristan Selmy; 9. the grand gift received by Hop-Bean, Penny and Oppo from the Sealord of Braavos were three dragon eggs, the same that Illyrio gave to Dany as her wedding gift, the same that Elissa Farman sold to the Sealord of Braavos; 10. Petyr Baelish is bloodrelated to Catelyn Tully (thru House Whent), and both of them are carriers of dragon-genes, descended from Aegon IV.

I'm sure that in the remaining two books GRRM will reveal those 10 elements. If it will turn out that I was right about all ten of them, would you then agree that me, figuring out those mysteries, was not just a lucky guess, that it's an evidence that there actually was evidences/clues for all of that in the books, and that I uncovered those mysteries, while other readers didn't, because I'm smarter than them? Would you agree then, that there indeed was a figurative trail of bread crumbs/clues/evidences left by GRRM, which has led me to a metaphorical Gingerbread house/uncovering of those mysteries? Will you admit then that there were clues/evidences? If 10 out of 10 will turn out to be correct, don't you agree that 100% guessing is just impossible? Thus, it wasn't guessing, it was logical deduction, and thus there were evidences/clues in the books, because deduction is based on clues not on mere guessing. If I will be 100% correct (about those 10), will you agree that there was indeed evidences there, and you just didn't saw them as such?

This is nonsense dude. I'm not saying this things can't be. With time travel, teleportation, telepathy and face changing almost any '''''''''''''''''''theory''''''''''''''''' could certainly possible. But you need to provide a reasoning for people to take it seriously, textual support, arguments, etc, etc, etc. Yes, if you were be right, you would be right. But that doesn't matter. It makes no sense. And regardless of any proof or theory you have I find it impossible that any fan would be right about all of their theories, specially some of the wild ones you propose.

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