U.S. Politics: That's too bad for Carrots

[maarsen]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Business/economy minded Republicans who are potentially swayable to some degree of openness to more government chew on stuff like this for *years* like a dog with a bone. Hard deal-breaker.

How it looks to them: This waste could have gone to someone who really needs it but Dems show no outrage over that, just accept waste and inefficiency, and ask for more money to go down the drain and more government which raises questions about whether they really care or whether their big government stuff is a big power grab from hard-working people who are honest and pay their taxes and Dem caring is just an excuse. Why should we approve more unemployment assistance if it just goes to criminals and is mismanaged?

Dems really have no idea how much this stuff undermines them. It's really, really bad and no mass outrage and attempts at cleaning up the system to prevent future fraud, waste and inefficiency makes it worse.

 

 

Somehow it never sticks when the wealthy do this sort of scamming. 

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, maarsen said:

Somehow it never sticks when the wealthy do this sort of scamming. 

They rarely hear about it their bubble. They've been conned into genuinely thinking that the interests of small business are like those of big business with just a difference in scale.

I've grew up in a small family business, worked at 2 successfully larger family businesses and one Fortune 500 company where instead of competing with a better product/prices/services, they competed by manipulating numbers, buying the competition, and working with a small group to secure power and monopolies into a type of oligarchy that bears no resemblance to capitalism at all and is even anti-capitalist. They are absolutely nothing alike and their interests are totally different. It's a con playing on their isolation and lack of worldliness.

But to what I suspect is your point, yes, to some it's about finding any excuse. But for a lot, it's really a principle and these are potentially swayable to some degree.

[Fragile Bird]

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Business/economy minded Republicans who are potentially swayable to some degree of openness to more government chew on stuff like this for *years* like a dog with a bone. Hard deal-breaker.

How it looks to them: This waste could have gone to someone who really needs it but Dems show no outrage over that, just accept waste and inefficiency, and ask for more money to go down the drain and more government which raises questions about whether they really care or whether their big government stuff is a big power grab from hard-working people who are honest and pay their taxes and Dem caring is just an excuse. Why should we approve more unemployment assistance if it just goes to criminals and is mismanaged?

Dems really have no idea how much this stuff undermines them. It's really, really bad and no mass outrage and attempts at cleaning up the system to prevent future fraud, waste and inefficiency makes it worse.

 

 

Uhhhhh, if you have a crook in the government how do you stop a fraud like this? Why do you say there is no outrage, the story just broke. The federal government has spies every now and then stealing very important information and selling it to US enemies. Shit happens.

In other news, the orange shit pardoned the military shit today, as everyone was predicting. I wonder why the orange shit didn’t wait until later? To steal the air waves from Biden news, I assume. Hell, he may pardon some Republican pos every single day until Jan. 20th.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Business/economy minded Republicans who are potentially swayable to some degree of openness to more government chew on stuff like this for *years* like a dog with a bone. Hard deal-breaker.

Yeah this is only because the GOP - enabled by mass media - racialized things like welfare and unemployment.  All they did was activate racial resentment, and they did this a long ass time ago at this point.  See Gilens 2000.  Then it was just rinse and repeat for immigration.  

[kairparavel]

This is what concession looks like. 

 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Ser Reptitious said:

In other words, seems to me that Democrats (in Wisconsin and throughout the US) really need to focus on making higher education as affordable as possible.

They do, but the problem also lies in a misunderstanding about culture.

Some folks aren't cut out for college and are more suited to working with their hands and this is no defect or any reflection on intelligence. My brother started college and did so well in his English classes that his prof wanted him to publish as an undergrad but he's now much happier in a physical job. Luckily, he's found a good one with good benefits.  This is a bit out there but I'll say it anyhow. When you're from an infinite line of farmers who have genetically adapted to that, I think that expecting certain folks to jump to a desk job is going to be a problem. I just see it so often and experience it personally, too.

Need to be careful about implying anything like we're going to educate you so you can get a sissy pants  desk job in an office because you're stupid and defective and the work you and your ancestors have done is backward and has no value. The anti-intellectualism and now Trumpism has been heavily fed by Dems coming across like this.

 

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah this is only because the GOP - enabled by mass media - racialized things like welfare and unemployment.  All they did was activate racial resentment, and they did this a long ass time ago at this point.  See Gilens 2000.  Then it was just rinse and repeat for immigration.  

Agree.

And Dems walk right into it and give it a bullhorn when they don't react to waste, fraud and inefficiency in government.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

And Dems walk right into it and give it a bullhorn when they don't react to waste, fraud and inefficiency in government.

This is empirically wrong.  The dems do react to waste, fraud, and inefficiencies, but voters activated by racial resentment either don't hear about it or resolve their cognitive dissonance via other processes (e.g. the RAS model).  Pretty much exactly what you're doing right now.

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Uhhhhh, if you have a crook in the government how do you stop a fraud like this? Why do you say there is no outrage, the story just broke. The federal government has spies every now and then stealing very important information and selling it to US enemies. Shit happens.

In other news, the orange shit pardoned the military shit today, as everyone was predicting. I wonder why the orange shit didn’t wait until later? To steal the air waves from Biden news, I assume. Hell, he may pardon some Republican pos every single day until Jan. 20th.

This is a state issue.

There's never any outrage. Just look at this thread. No comment on how that money could have gone to people really needing it and demands on the state of CA to make sure it doesn't happen again. Combined with Dems wanting more money, it looks extra bad. Yeah, shit happens. But when you know about it, you do something to prevent it from happening again.

Sorry, this is how it looks to a lot of folks and why they just tune out. Want to know why half of the country keeps voting Trump, this is part of it.

[Larry of the Lawn]

The thing is though that all the "oh no welfare fraud" is 100% bs on my experience.  As a blue collar dude who talks/argues regularly with white non college educated men if you bother to point out that fraud is a drop in the bucket, especially compared to defense contractors price gouging or corporate welfare, it all comes back to them just not wanting black and brown people to get shit for free.  

It's all bullshit.

[Zorral]

54 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

MJ is the new cash crop. 

Not really, there's way too much competition and the big ones have either bought up or driven out the small ones, and there's still the cheaper 'import' from Mexico and South America. Everyone we know who thought have a pot farm was a good idea at the end of the last decade lost their shirts.

What is massively profitable are producing products, medical and recreational, for retail dispensaries. Everyone we know who is in this business was already wealthy.  Covid-19 massively increased that too.

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

This is empirically wrong.  The dems do react to waste, fraud, and inefficiencies, but voters activated by racial resentment either don't hear about it or resolve their cognitive dissonance via other processes (e.g. the RAS model).  Pretty much exactly what you're doing right now.

Keep deflecting by turning to race and keep digging a deeper hole. If you want to sway some to your side, and yes, some are definitely swayable, don't call them names (even if it may be true).

No, the responses are reactionary, not pro-active and it only raises questions as to how much they miss because they're just tax and spend Dems. Things like this should not have happened in the first place in a well-administered program and it's just about how Dems don't get it and how they're all high-and-mighty on their high horse lording it over other folks.

I was raised on this stuff. Even if one in principle wanted to trust government, it's too fundamentally broken and Dems won't/can't make it work well and being whatever about it reinforces the view.

 

 

[Lollygag]

8 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

The thing is though that all the "oh no welfare fraud" is 100% bs on my experience.  As a blue collar dude who talks/argues regularly with white non college educated men if you bother to point out that fraud is a drop in the bucket, especially compared to defense contractors price gouging or corporate welfare, it all comes back to them just not wanting black and brown people to get shit for free.  

It's all bullshit.

The point is making excuses for it and minimizing it, and then not calling out CA to fix the cause of the problem (showing outrage for frauding people who really need it) and holding them accountable.

They're just racist may be true a lot, but it's also an excuse propping bad strategy. The Republican/Dem balance in this country is razor thin. Quit leaving cards on the table.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I was raised on this stuff. Even if one in principle wanted to trust government, it's too fundamentally broken and Dems won't/can't make it work well and being whatever about it reinforces the view.

I'm not "deflecting" anything, I'm pointing out your point of view is a bunch of horseshit that feeds into the racial resentment.  Here's politico's article on it.  If you actually read the whole thing you would know Newsom and the government are reacting to the problem and already were - because it is outrageous.  But instead of mentioning any of that, all you do is whine about the Democrats "not doing anything" and "government being broken," apocryphal canards that were inserted into the political consciousness to activate racial resentment over a half century ago.  If you're gonna get mad because I point out you're falling for the same tricks other "swing" voters easily manipulated by racial resentment do as well, that's your own problem.

[The Mance]

13 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

It's all bullshit.

 Well, and the hypocrisy can be staggering as well.  I can't speak for you, but many of the blue collar guys I've worked around my whole life don't hesitate to commit unemployment fraud during slow-downs in construction.  Usually its as simple as just not looking for work like they're supposed to, at least until their claim expires.   But also there are guys who plan on getting laid off for the winter who then claim UE while plowing snow, or selling firewood, or otherwise working for cash until springtime or their claim runs out.  

[Lollygag]

28 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm not "deflecting" anything, I'm pointing out your point of view is a bunch of horseshit that feeds into the racial resentment.  Here's politico's article on it.  If you actually read the whole thing you would know Newsom and the government are reacting to the problem and already were - because it is outrageous.  But instead of mentioning any of that, all you do is whine about the Democrats "not doing anything" and "government being broken," apocryphal canards that were inserted into the political consciousness to activate racial resentment over a half century ago.  If you're gonna get mad because I point out you're falling for the same tricks other "swing" voters easily manipulated by racial resentment do as well, that's your own problem.

Quote

The news: A multi-agency investigation found that 35,000 unemployment claims were filed in the name of California state prison inmates between March and August, including that of convicted murderer Scott Peterson, and that at least 20,000 had been paid out, said Sacramento County District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert.

 

Schubert called the scale of the scheme "honestly staggering" and that it could amount to "the biggest fraud of taxpayer dollars in California history." She and her law enforcement colleagues called on state officials — including Gov. Gavin Newsom — to ensure that the identities of claimants are routinely cross-checked against those who are incarcerated and halt those payments.

My point was clearly about the lack of outrage and the whateverism of the average voter. Note how action happens here when the DA cracks down on them. That's my point.

Now you're deflecting to make it personal. My position on Trump and Republicans has been made very clear. But I'm gonna call out Dems walking right into their shit and reinforcing it every time. Reread my posts. If I wanted to work against more funding, I'd be whatevering/it's just racist massive fraud too because I know it'll make Republicans dig in against it and they're more likely to end up with the Senate to block anything.

If there's a major national and very public push on the part of Dems to address inefficiency/fraud whatever, then Rs working against it raises questions as to what the actual objects really are, no?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I suspect the Trumps in 2024 may be Sarah Palin in 2012.

That's makes me think of that nutty press conference where it was clear even Trump thought she sounded insane.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

59 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Agree.

And Dems walk right into it and give it a bullhorn when they don't react to waste, fraud and inefficiency in government.

 

41 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

 

No, the responses are reactionary,

 

 

Hmmmm 

[Lollygag]

Just now, OnionAhaiReborn said:

 

Hmmmm 

The average Dem voter doesn't react. Government reactions to fraud are reactionary (and often compulsory) rather than pro-active on a matter of principle. Check the pronoun.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

I don't think that will change the cult of personality that has risen up around him.  Its got its own momentum now.  Fox and the GOP created a Tiger, and it won't go away just because they don't want to hold its tail anymore.  If anything it will be more likely to bite them instead now.   I still see the same Trump flags flying on the highway.  His cult may be a bit dispirited now, but in a few months they're going to have something better than what they've had the past four years.  A real honest to goodness enemy to rally against.  Pelosi was never a good target, because acknowledging her as an enemy meant that Trump was too weak to control the government.  Trying to play yourself as an outsider is a hard sell when you're the freaking president.

But now Trump will be able to rile his base up against Biden and the "demoncrats" for the next two years, possibly four if the the 2022 election isn't a GOP victory.  And over that entire period of time he's going to be able to collect donations, hold rallies, and just generally extract wealth from his base.  Short of jail or death, I don't see any reason for him to stop.  Then if he doesn't feel like running (because he'll be older and even lazier), he can push Ivanka to the front and say "here's your first Woman President! Vote for her! (But keep sending me your money)"

He's an evangelical televangelist without the religious hooplah.

It's very possible that the general cult mentality will still be there, but I agree that he'll be too old and lazy to run again, and like his niece said, he may not run again because a loss could be too damaging to his ego. 

As far as pushing one of his kids on us, I think that's probably unlikely because none of them have his connection and charisma. The grifting will absolutely happen though.