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The 4R for Redemption.


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Redemption may not be realistic but it is possible in Ice and Fire because it adds to the story.  Redemption is not the same as forgiveness but it is the sinner making good on a wrong.  I will use Sandor Clegane for this example.  I want to send Sandor to hell but it is not me writing the story. 

Step 1 Realization of the Sin - Sandor reflects on the killing of the butcher's son, Micah.  He now knows it was wrong. 

Step 2 Remorse - He feels guilt.

Step 3 Restitution - He has not done anything to help the butcher and his family.  My opinion, the first two are easy but it is this third part which is the hardest.  Character defects such as pride and self-interest get in the way.  It's too late for Micah but Sandor can do what's in his power to help the family.  Restitution or an honest attempt at one is a requirement towards redemption. 

Step 4 Redirection - This is the sinner changing the trajectory of his life from this point forward. 

Ramsay could theoretically kill all of the White Walkers and he will be praised as a hero by the people left alive.  But that is not redemption to me. 

Who should get to redeem himself?

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4 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Who should get to redeem himself?

Well Jaime is well on his way (though not for the Kingslaying, that doesn't require redemption, but rather for the twincest and misanthropy), so count him in.

Sandor too more the likely will redeem himself by the end

Theon is finally putting himself back together again, so count him too

Tyrion is likewise rebuilding from the ground up.

And that's pretty much it, I think

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well Jaime is well on his way (though not for the Kingslaying, that doesn't require redemption, but rather for the twincest and misanthropy), so count him in.

Sandor too more the likely will redeem himself by the end

Theon is finally putting himself back together again, so count him too

Tyrion is likewise rebuilding from the ground up.

And that's pretty much it, I think

Tyrion's road has been taking him in the opposite path, he's getting worse and worse. 

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Just now, CamiloRP said:

Tyrion's road has been taking him in the opposite path, he's getting worse and worse. 

Not really. His low point is the brothel and being captured by Jorah. Since then he's been getting (very agonizingly slowly) better, especially through his somewhat positive relation with Jorah and especially Penny. Still a long way to go, but he does seem to be going in the right direction.

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not really. His low point is the brothel and being captured by Jorah. Since then he's been getting (very agonizingly slowly) better, especially through his somewhat positive relation with Jorah and especially Penny. Still a long way to go, but he does seem to be going in the right direction.

I don't get that, I just see him fighting for himself.

 

19 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Ser Jorah is on the right path. 

How come?

 

Quote

I would like to see Vic serve Dany in order to receive redemption from me.  

Why would that be redemptive?

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12 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Ramsay could theoretically kill all of the White Walkers and he will be praised as a hero by the people left alive.  But that is not redemption to me. 

Who should get to redeem himself?

Tyrion. Jaime. Theon. 

As to the Freys and Boltons redemption, they'd get that best by  dying. Valar... 

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22 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Redemption may not be realistic but it is possible in Ice and Fire because it adds to the story.  Redemption is not the same as forgiveness but it is the sinner making good on a wrong.  I will use Sandor Clegane for this example.  I want to send Sandor to hell but it is not me writing the story. 

Step 1 Realization of the Sin - Sandor reflects on the killing of the butcher's son, Micah.  He now knows it was wrong. 

Step 2 Remorse - He feels guilt.

Step 3 Restitution - He has not done anything to help the butcher and his family.  My opinion, the first two are easy but it is this third part which is the hardest.  Character defects such as pride and self-interest get in the way.  It's too late for Micah but Sandor can do what's in his power to help the family.  Restitution or an honest attempt at one is a requirement towards redemption. 

Step 4 Redirection - This is the sinner changing the trajectory of his life from this point forward. 

Ramsay could theoretically kill all of the White Walkers and he will be praised as a hero by the people left alive.  But that is not redemption to me. 

Who should get to redeem himself?

Jorah and the Dothraki people.  There's too many to list.  Jorah may die in Slaver's Bay while fighting to free the slaves.  He has been a changed man since meeting Dany.  I think that meets the change you require.  The Dothraki people will suffer and lose many lives to put an end to the slave trade.  They were a big part of it.  

Theon doesn't need redemption.  He was a hostage of the Starks.  They would have taken his head if the ironborn had rebelled again.  He owed the Starks nothing.  

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34 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Jorah and the Dothraki people.  There's too many to list.  Jorah may die in Slaver's Bay while fighting to free the slaves.  He has been a changed man since meeting Dany.  I think that meets the change you require.  The Dothraki people will suffer and lose many lives to put an end to the slave trade.  They were a big part of it.  

Theon doesn't need redemption.  He was a hostage of the Starks.  They would have taken his head if the ironborn had rebelled again.  He owed the Starks nothing.  

He doesn't need to redeem himself in the eyes of the Starks. He needs to redeem himself in the eyes of his Winterfell, the people he killed where his friends. The people he drank with, he hunted with, he trained with. That's why Theon chapters are so heartbreaking. He's betraying, harming and killing people who genuinely considered him a friend.

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On 11/25/2020 at 5:28 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well Jaime is well on his way (though not for the Kingslaying, that doesn't require redemption, but rather for the twincest and misanthropy), so count him in.

 

If these four "R" are steps, Jaime hasn't even tooked the first one.

Jaime still hasn't realized what his affair with Cersei did to the realm, he still tells Ilyn Payne about sleeping with Cersei in a boastfull tone, he still blame the KG vows for his failures even though he never intended to keep them, Jaime only feels resentment and indignation, but he does not look on the mirror.

Step 1 Realization of the Sin

 Jaime still shifting the blame, pushing it into Cersei.

Step 2 Remorse

Jaime does seems to have some sense of guilty on him, as he is looking for a redemption and restoring his honor, but weird enough he does not mention of what he feels guilty for, it's not the affair or the murder of Aerys, maybe his betryal of Tyrion or like his dreams he seems remorse over not protecting Rhaegar's children.

Step 3 Restitution

This is where it gets really ugly, Jaime does the opposite, he goes to Riverrun, breaks his vows to Catelyn, take arms against her family agains and keeps pushing more injustice against them, by helping the Freys to kick Blackfish out of Riverrun, he later even send men to kill Bryden Tully, all that while he uses Edmure as hostage and threatned to kill his baby.

If anything Jaime is doing the oposite.

Step 4 Redirection - 

Jaime is going into a new direction, he is cutting his path from Cersei, but since he still refusing responsability, he keeps inforcing injustice on his past victims and the guilty he feels only gets ignored, I don't see this new path as redemption, he could be very well forcing and speeding up his damnation.

 

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One name that hasn't been mentioned yet it's Lancel Lannister,

Lancel cleary takes the blame for the affair with Cersei and killing Robert, he seems himself as a coward, and genuinely seems to feel remorse over it, he went into a new path looking for religion and his restitution also is on the way as he seems to care for the smallfolk and unlike Jaime he does not get stuck into hating Cersei, he goes and moves on, he confess everything to Jaime but never shifts the blame or points a finger at anyone other than himself.

 

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23 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Step 3 Restitution

This is where it gets really ugly, Jaime does the opposite, he goes to Riverrun, breaks his vows to Catelyn, take arms against her family agains and keeps pushing more injustice against them, by helping the Freys to kick Blackfish out of Riverrun, he later even send men to kill Bryden Tully, all that while he uses Edmure as hostage and threatned to kill his baby.

If anything Jaime is doing the oposite.

He doesn't actually, that's the whole point, he resolved it without anyone dying, a far cry from what he would have done at the beginning of the story.

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He doesn't actually, that's the whole point, he resolved it without anyone dying, a far cry from what he would have done at the beginning of the story.

He spelled them from the castle after using the lord son as hostage, and if it wasn't enough he send men to kill Blackfish, after he was on the run...

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23 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

 

 

How come

 

Why would that be redemptive?

Jorah is serving the right person now.  He wants to help Dany fight the slavers and he loves her.  All good things to me.  Maybe not for you but that brings him closer to redemption in my eyes.  You know why?  You already know.  I support Dany. 

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jorah is serving the right person now.  He wants to help Dany fight the slavers and he loves her.  All good things to me.  Maybe not for you but that brings him closer to redemption in my eyes.  You know why?  You already know.  I support Dany. 

I support Dany as well, but Jorah wants to help her for the wrong reasons, he's obsessed with her, in a really creepy way. And he's the same guy as before. He was a spy because he wanted a pardon, the only thing that makes him regret his decision is that it costed him Daenerys, the same way he only regretted being a slaver because it costed him his home. He hasn't changed a bit, he just raters be with Dany that get a pardon because Dany also includes a Pardon, if he gets something even better in his eyes he will betray her again. Furthermore, all the choices he made were no sacrifice to him. He was lost, with nothing to do, spotted Tyrion, captured him and decided to go back to Slaver's Bay to give him as a gift to Daenerys. It's like a creepy ex-boyfriend who violates a restriction order just to bring you a present and refusing to understand why you are mad with him.

 

On the Victarion side, his ''''crimes'''' include the murder of his wife and other innocent people, not caring about human life, rape, and being clasist and completely sexist. He would only join Daenerys to beat his brother, he would only join her for power, not because he thinks the anti-slavery cause is great. So that would not redeem him at all, IMHO.

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On 11/25/2020 at 3:28 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well Jaime is well on his way (though not for the Kingslaying, that doesn't require redemption, but rather for the twincest and misanthropy), so count him in.

Sandor too more the likely will redeem himself by the end

Theon is finally putting himself back together again, so count him too

Tyrion is likewise rebuilding from the ground up.

And that's pretty much it, I think

Jaime has not taken the steps. 

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6 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

He has been pulling away from the Lannisters and that is a good thing.  His redemption will be complete after he fights his brother and sister. 

What about killing Shae? or not caring at all about the suffering of others? Tyrion's wrongs were other, not just helping his family.

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