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The rulership genius of Cersei Lannister


Alyn Oakenfist
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31 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Which is a pointless effort as he still plotting to support a Targeryan to the throne, and he will need to fight and win a war to make it happen.

 

So he says. We don't actually know what Doran's master plan is. Other than sending his two utterly unprepared heirs on dangerous, life-threatening quests with almost no protection, of course. 

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1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

So he says. We don't actually know what Doran's master plan is. Other than sending his two utterly unprepared heirs on dangerous, life-threatening quests with almost no protection, of course. 

exactly! his supposed master plan seems pretty dumb and lazy.

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Cersei is not cut out to rule but she is not dumb.  What she's good at is plotting and playing games.  Cat, Jon, Robb, and Cersei all have that in common.  They're not necessarily dumb but they are not cut out for ruling.  Jon, Cersei, and Robb are awful in politics.  A leader should always be keenly aware of how their underlings are feeling and know how to manage those feelings.  The trio sucked at that.  Cat is pretty good at politics but she puts being a mother first before logic.  Which makes Cat a bad choice to have in a lead role.

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13 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

So he says. We don't actually know what Doran's master plan is. Other than sending his two utterly unprepared heirs on dangerous, life-threatening quests with almost no protection, of course. 

Maybe Doran should have sent Quentyn to Meereen with an entourage, similar to what he did with Oberyn’s journey to King’s Landing, to wow Daenerys?

Edited by Angel Eyes
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52 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Maybe Doran should have sent Quentyn to Meereen with an entourage, similar to what he did with Oberyn’s journey to King’s Landing, to wow Daenerys?

Maybe he should have sent him with better clothes, knowledge on dragons (he has a huge tome on the subject), and using some of his many many contacts in Essos to aid in his voyage. 

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On 11/27/2020 at 2:40 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Well Doran is weak, pathetic and useless, just imagine what mayhem Oberyn would have done at the end of AGoT or at the start of ACoK, if he was the prince of Dorne... It was the moment that the Lannisters were more vulnerable.

He was stupid to betroth Arianne to Viserys. At least Ned gets some of a pass since he wasn't aware of what Joffrey was like...

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

At least Ned gets some of a pass since he wasn’t aware of what Joffrey was like...

Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey … Joffrey is …"

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

Suggests to me Ned had heard the tales. Pregnant cat... 

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On 11/28/2020 at 11:41 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey … Joffrey is …"

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

Suggests to me Ned had heard the tales. Pregnant cat... 

Geez, forgot about that. And Catelyn decided to brush that off...

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  • 11 months later...

She's not that bad of a ruler. She is mentally sick and incompetent yes but not that incompetent. Though comparing cersei with dany as a ruler is like comparing a cockroach with an elephant. Dany's rule is far better than cersei's

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

Cersei I

- Cersei's first chapter focuses on the immediate aftermath of Tywin's death. Instead of trying to see exactly how he was murdered, who helped Tyrion and who is innocent, Cersei uses most of her time destroying evidence, from killing the sleeping guards, to removing Shae's body, because what evidence could there be on a dead body, and removing the quarrel from the body. Good way to start.

- When treating Tywin's corpse he makes not Pycelle, the Grandmaester, but Qyburn treat the body, a chainless master kicked out of the Citadel. Good way to start your reign, openly insulting a member of the Small Council and one of the most powerful institutions on the land.

- Next she immediately asks Jaime to be her hand, a man despised by most of Westeros, with no skill or experience in rulership. All this in public, resulting in him openly scorning her. All great ideas Cersei. And all this is in just her first chapter. The only sane thing she does in it is realize that Varys not spawning in at the scene of the crime is pretty suspicious.

 

The evidence must have been examined thoroughly before cersei arrived. So havinga dead body there is of no use. Plus by the end it's obvious Tyrion did it. If my father is shot with a gun I'd want the bullet removed. 

Qyburn is far more competent than Pycelle. If my father is murdered I would want his body to be treated properly. 

If jaime Lannister can be a kingsguard and warden of the east he can be hand of the king. 

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

Cersei II

- Up next at the funeral despite smelling the foulness emanating from Tywin ever since he died (probably Oberyn poisoning him, but that's another matter), thinks that Pycelle is to blame for not doing the proper procedures. Again, Cersei why are you actively striving to push away one of the few die hard Lannister loyalists in the Council?

- Next he gives Qyburn free reign to do as he will with Clegane, despite any sane person just beheading him on the spot. Also in conspiring with Qyburn, Cersei is just inviting all kind of rumors, not to mention the possibility of destroying her reputation if anything gets out about what Qyburn is doing (fun fact, it probably will if FrankenGregor loses his helmet at the Trial by Combat)

- Finally after publicly asking Jaime to be hand she next asks Kevan, insulting him by making him her second choice. When he refuses for a variety of reasons, especially because of her and Lancel, she concludes that he's a traitor that sold out to the Tyrells. He further gives her good advice, telling her to weaken the Tyrells by allying the two strong Reach houses not tied to the Tyrells by blood, Rowan and Tarly. She takes this as further proof of treachery.

Well I agree with the first point but pycelle was looking thoroughly incompetent. 

She gives qyburn free reign with clegane because he's a criminal, a very bad criminal. No one will be bothered by his torture. I personally find it satisfying given what he did to elia and pisswater prince. 

I agree that she should have asked kevan first but isn't kevan in tyrell payroll. Tarly and Rowan are firm Tyrell Bannerman. 

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

 

Cersei III

- Cersei thinks a lot about how bad it is that Tommen has to marry Margery. Cersei you do realize that without the Tyrells you probably can't even defeat the Vale, yes?

- Cersei also decides to trust the totally trustworthy Taena, just because she told her that one of her handmaidens is a spy, with no proof what so ever. Sure let's trust her, what could go wrong?

- She also spends some time fantasizing about Aurane Waters and how he looks so similar to her Rhaegar. Cersei you do know this is exactly the kind of thing Robert did concerning Lyanna. It's one of the reasons you hated him. Speaking of Robert Cersei also begins to drink and gain weight, always signs of a good ruler.

- Finally she burns the Tower of the Hand with wildfire, because nothing says stability to your subjects like looking like the Mad King as you burn a traditional symbol of stability

 

 

 

Its not that tommen has to marry margaery it's that margaery is too ambitious for cersei's liking. If she was more like sansa cersei wouldn't have minded. 

She doesn't trust taena completely. 

I agree with the last two points. 

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2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

She's not that bad of a ruler

Yes, she really is. The entire point of her Feast storyline is how much of a disaster she is. Littlefinger even admits to Sansa that he's surprised at how quickly Cersei has destabilised the kingdom, that he thought it'd take a bit longer at least. And Varys kills Kevan and Pycelle at the end of Dance specifically because they were doing too good a job at fixing Cersei's mistakes, and he wanted Cersei back in power to keep destabilising Westeros.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Though comparing cersei with dany as a ruler is like comparing a cockroach with an elephant. Dany's rule is far better than cersei's

Better, yes, but that's not saying much. Dany's rule isn't all that impressive either. She made the mistake of trying to play the middle ground and satisfy all parties, which just ended up pissing off all parties. She needed to choose one side and stick with it; either the ancien regime politicians, or the new freedmen. Her marriage to Hizdahr was her biggest mistake. Dany needed to be way more ruthless and purge everyone even loosely connected to the old regime and old order. She wanted to act like a Ned-esque ruler, all just and moderate and honourable, but in this case she really did need to act like a Tywin-esque ruler, iron-fisted and ruthless to anyone that poses even a slight danger to her rule. Her unwillingness to be ruthless was just as big a mistake as Cersei's over-enthusiasm to be ruthless and deceptive.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Qyburn is far more competent than Pycelle

Not necessarily. Qyburn is more knowledgeable in certain fields, but those are bad fields and not ones that Cersei should be exploring. Pycelle may be old, but he's not stupid, despite what Cersei thinks. He became Grand Maester for a reason.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

If jaime Lannister can be a kingsguard and warden of the east he can be hand of the king. 

Completely different jobs, though. Kingsguard is just being a bodyguard. Warden of the East is a mostly ceremonial title except in wartime, and even then it mostly just involves leading armies, see: Ser Devan Lannister being made Warden of the West in Feast, and all he does is command the siege at Riverrun. Neither of these roles are even remotely similar to Hand of the King, which is the de facto prime minister who manages the day-to-day affairs of the kingdom. They need to be wise, patient and diligent. Jaime believed that he did not possess these traits, and he also just didn't want to do the job. It's always a bad idea to force someone to do an important job that they really don't want to do. That's just common sense.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

but pycelle was looking thoroughly incompetent

How?

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Its not that tommen has to marry margaery it's that margaery is too ambitious for cersei's liking

Literally everyone that doesn't sycophantically flatter her is deemed "too ambitious" by Cersei's delusional standards. Margaery behaved exactly as the daughter of the most powerful lord in Westeros, and the person betrothed to the king, would be expected to behave. It's Cersei's extreme paranoia that makes her believe Margaery's behaviour is suspicious, when in reality tit isn't.

2 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

She doesn't trust taena completely

True, but she still trusts her enough to confide in her a lot of things that she shouldn't have. Tywin would not have approved at all.

Edited by WhatAnArtist!
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48 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Yes, she really is. The entire point of her Feast storyline is how much of a disaster she is. Littlefinger even admits to Sansa that he's surprised at how quickly Cersei has destabilised the kingdom, that he thought it'd take a bit longer at least. And Varys kills Kevan and Pycelle at the end of Dance specifically because they were doing too good a job at fixing Cersei's mistakes, and he wanted Cersei back in power to keep destabilising Westeros.

 

I never said she was a good ruler. I just said that she wasn't that bad. Varys is no criteria to judge anyone his plans change every fortnight. 

 

48 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Completely different jobs, though. Kingsguard is just being a bodyguard. Warden of the East is a mostly ceremonial title except in wartime, and even then it mostly just involves leading armies, see: Ser Devan Lannister being made Warden of the West in Feast, and all he does is command the siege at Riverrun. Neither of these roles are even remotely similar to Hand of the King, which is the de facto prime minister who manages the day-to-day affairs of the kingdom. They need to be wise, patient and diligent. Jaime believed that he did not possess these traits, and he also just didn't want to do the job. It's always a bad idea to force someone to do an important job that they really don't want to do. That's just common sense.

 

Well in bran ii agot cersei wanted the usurper to name Jaime hand and in ned x he threatened to do the same. It's not that jaime can't ever be appointed it's that he will be a unpopular choice. 

48 minutes ago, WhatAnArtist! said:

Literally everyone that doesn't sycophantically flatter her is deemed "too ambitious" by Cersei's delusional standards. Margaery behaved exactly as the daughter of the most powerful lord in Westeros, and the person betrothed to the king, would be expected to behave. It's Cersei's extreme paranoia that makes her believe Margaery's behaviour is suspicious, when in reality tit isn't.

Exactly what I meant to say

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On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei IV (oh boy)

- Cersei names a small council made out of the dumb, the weak and the disloyal. I could go into all of them, but of particular note are Waters and Qyburn, the councilors with the most power, both of whom of uncertain loyalty, with Cersei having no reason whatsoever to trust them. The rest, while more loyal are downright incompetent, but who cares, Cersei's genius will make up for it. The only good council member is Pycelle, so better use the meeting to further belittle, humiliate and ignore him.

- We also hear that he send Balon Swann to Dorne to get Myrcella and lead Trystane into an ambush, because if removing her from Dorne doesn't sever all ties and make them more likely to rebel, then killing Trystane surely will. Good plan Cersei.

- After killing the High Septon we also see her not caring who succeeds him, or about the Sparrows, it's not like Tommen's legitimacy hangs by a thread and any move by the faith could seriously fuck them over. Eh, who cares, can't see this going anywhere relevant.

- When discussing the matter of Littlefinger and the Lords Declarant, rather then support her ally against people that have definite Stark and Baratheon loyalties and probably hold a grudge, she just let's him be. What's the worse that can happen? It's not like the Vale is one of the strongest Kingdoms that has gone untouched by the war.

- Then Cersei defaults on the Iron Bank so she can't build a fleet simply because she doesn't trust the Redwynes. Words cannot begin to describe how stupid this is. Were it not for the Others Cersei would have handed the Throne to Stannis on a silver platter with this move.

- Up next she hatches a plan to kill Jon Snow in a very obvious manner. Is she actively supporting Stannis? Killing the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch would guarantee that the North will side in it's entirety with Stannis.

- Next comes her plan with Osney Kettleblack, and it's just... beyond retarded doesn't cover it. First she plans to have him bed Margery so she can kill her. Yes, because Margery is a moron. Next she wants to send Osney to the Wall to lead those men sent to kill Jon Snow. Always a good idea to put all your plots in one basket. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she had no intention to pardon him after, thought I'm not sure. Just to hurt her position even more she fucks Osney. Yes I'm sure he'd never use that at a trial.

- She then includes the clearly trustworthy and definitely not a Tyrell double agent Taena into her hairbrained scheme. Good idea.

 

1) The council doesn't matter if the ruler is actively being involved in the affairs of the realm. If the ruler is concerned with whoring then the council is very important else it's just an advisory body. 

2) The plan isn't to openly kill trystane and celebrate it. It's to kill trystane and make the martells believe tyrion did it. While the act is despicable I think it's kind of smart. It prevents the martells from allying with tyrion and frees her daughter. 

3) At this stage sparrows are not that big of a threat. 

4) It's not like the vale is completely loyal to her, though I agree that she should have helped petyr but not sending an army kind of help. 

5) I agree with this but it's rendered useless later. 

6) Again, she is not openly killing jon. She is sending osney who will be accused of treason against cersei to kill jon. Also the plan is to let osney die after killing jon. Who will believe what he says then. No one. 

7) Well men have a habit of boasting it can easily be dismissed as lies. The only reason it was discovered was because the sparrow had osney whipped and most importantly lancel confessed. 

8) You're half right taena is not a tyrell agent but she's not trustworthy. She is just ambitious. 

 

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I never understood why Cersei, who is paranoid about Varys and Tyrion lurking in the tunnels of the Red Keep, didn't have those tunnels thoroughly explored. She should've been tearing the Red Keep apart trying to find entryways and having people spend countless hours in that tunnel entrance they found.

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3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

I just said that she wasn't that bad.

Yeah but you're wrong: sabotaging her own rule in a few months is a job that only a very bad ruler can do, only Joffrey is worse and guess what? He's her abomination and she raised him to be the glorious king he was and would have become even more glorious in adulthood.

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Varys is no criteria to judge anyone his plans change every fortnight.

Varys adapts his plan to the new circumstances since he can't foresee everything and manages to fall back on his feet, Cersei's plans backfire on her, you don't need a great intelligence to see that.

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Well in bran ii agot cersei wanted the usurper to name Jaime hand and in ned x he threatened to do the same. It's not that jaime can't ever be appointed it's that he will be a unpopular choice. 

Not only unpopular, Jaime is not competent for the job, only Kevan was among the few Lannister loyalists she had in hands.

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

1) The council doesn't matter if the ruler is actively being involved in the affairs of the realm.

Of course it does matter since the ruler cannot do everything or be everywhere, he must delegate certain tasks and surrounded by incompetents he will not make it, especially in times of war (which is currently the case).

3 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

It's to kill trystane and make the martells believe tyrion did it. While the act is despicable I think it's kind of smart. It prevents the martells from allying with tyrion and frees her daughter.

No it's a stupid plan since Tyrion would gain nothing from it and is hostile to her, not the Martell. She is the one who would openly take benefits from it, even without spies, Doran wouldn't fell for it. You cannot frame someone for murder if the suspect doesn't have a clear motive to kill, but you do have an obvious one.

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

At this stage sparrows are not that big of a threat.

Yes they are, they live close to her.

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

It's not like the vale is completely loyal to her

He was talking about Littlefinger. -_-

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Again, she is not openly killing jon. She is sending osney who will be accused of treason against cersei to kill jon. Also the plan is to let osney die after killing jon. Who will believe what he says then. No one.

She gains nothing from it politically, this is pure spite.

4 hours ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

7) Well men have a habit of boasting it can easily be dismissed as lies. The only reason it was discovered was because the sparrow had osney whipped and most importantly lancel confessed. 

She shouldn't have give him supreme authority in the first place, it is the dumbest move she has ever made during her short regency. Of course the Sparrow would have questioned Osney and question means torture in medieval times, under torture pawns are more than eager to bring their mastermind down with them.

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On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei V

- When Margery moves to grant more authority and visibility to Tommen she actively refuses, because what better idea then to hide the King under her mother's skirts. Even better to never let him learn how to rule.

- She then openly rejects the Iron Bank envoy, because at this point why not?

- She then involves even more people in her plot against Margery when she makes Osmund a part of it. Remember Cersei, the more people in a plot the better.

- Then comes the jousting debacle. Not only does she yet again try and keep Tommen under her skirts, she blurts out that Jaime is the father, because why not, and finally refuses to name Loras as master at arms, a position that is inherently powerless, and for which Loras is more then qualified for, making him the perfect fit, buttering up the Tyrells without giving them any power and having a good master at arms. So of course she rejects the idea.

 

- Up next Cersei is more interested in a puppet show then what goes on in Dorner, because at this point I'd be surprised if she did do something sensible.

-Then after Bronn names the whelp Tyrion she reaches the obvious conclusion. She needs to kill him using the most incompetent people imaginable. Well second most incompetent people imaginable, after he small council.

 

- She also seems she doesn't fit her gowns anymore and reaches the obvious conclusion that it's the servants fault.

1) Tommen is learning to rule. Isn't that incompetent pycelle teaching him? I agree that she should have shown him how things are done but actively giving an 8 year old power is plain stupid. Look what happened with joffrey and he was older. Why should she sacrifice her moment in the sun when tywin and tyrion enjoyed it and ruled with an iron hand. 

2) I agree with this however the next chapter presents a solution to this. And what can the iron bank even do to her. It's far away in braavos. The best it can do is finance her enemy stannis and I don't see how they can deliver money in a desolate war torn land. Even if they what difference does it make? 

3) She doesn't involve a random new person she involves osmund kettleback, osney's brother. 

4) Loras is a tyrell naming him means giving more power to the overambitious tyrells. She remedies the jaime mistake and no one suspects it. What if loras had deliberately killed tommen in the joust and made it to look like an accident. 

5) Can't she take one break for a small time. 

6) This is wrong but how is this remotely related to her rulership. 

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei VI

- To pay the debt to the Faith, Cersei does the sensible thing. She pulls back some of her spending and slowly pays the interest. Just kidding she reestablishes the Faith Militant, an organization that had to be snuffed out after fighting for decades against incest. Good thing there's not even a suspicion of incest in the Royal House. Especially a good idea, given how angry and despondent the people around the Sept are.

I think so this is cersei's biggest achievement as a ruler. The faith militant protects the rights of smallfolk. With it reinstated the smallfolk will be protected from the highborn cruelty. This will benefit the realm. She also removes a debt of 1 million dragons in just one single move that will benefit the realm.Two shots with 1 arrow.No one, not even Tywin Lannister can boast of this. This is the best cersei got as a ruler. 

Edited by Daenerysthegreat
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On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei VII

- When the Ironborn attack Cersei's most important ally her natural reaction is let them burn. Surely this won't cause any rebellious sentiments.

- She also reaches the obvious and clear conclusion that Stannis is working with the Ironborn, and that the North rejects him based on what Manderly did. Because obviously house Manderly is the same thing as te whole North.

- Then she sends Loras to Dragonstone in the clear hope that he will die. Pycelle tries speaking reason to her, but what does he know?

- If all goes well for Cersei Loras will die and Marge will be executed, and then she'll have won and the Tyrells will truly have nothing stopping them from sacking King's Landing and planting her head on a spike. Truly brilliant.

- Cersei gets an inkling of sanity when she questions what Taena is telling Marge but after Taena promises she isn't doing anything wrong so she puts that away.

- She also beds Taena, because why not at this point?

1) The ironborn are responsibility of the tyrells since they attacked tyrell lands. 

2) It is one of the major northern houses and stannis was rejected by majority of the North. 

3) Loras is her enemy wouldn't it be better if he died. 

4) She will not openly kill margaery, she will make sure that mace himself has to condemn her. 

5) She doesn't trust taena completely yet but by now taena is proving useful and trustworthy. 

6) Her personal life is not related to her rulership. 

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei VIII

- Cersei is all surprised when the armed fanatic zealots start harming brothels. Truly a shocking twist.

- When Rosby finally kicks the bucket, she naturally concludes that it wasn't the illness, but the Tyrells poisoning him, and he orders Pycelle to keep him alive, because that' show there things work.

- Finally after a dream about Maggi, she decides she needs to kill Margery. Now that Loras, he only other tie to the Tyrells is dead, I'm sure that will work out just great. No needs to worry about the Tyrell armies at Maidenpool and Storm's End.

7) What's wrong with destroying brothels. 

8) Well the tyrell conclusion was obviously wrong but won't keeping him alive a show of strength for the government. 

9) I explained this before. 

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei IX

- She finally launches her hairbrained scheme against Margery and decides to also give the Faith right of judgement. Truly a brilliant idea. I already talked about why this is stupid, so I won't go into it again. Of note is her fucking Kettleblack, surely that won't instantly backfire, as well as how flimsy her case is. She does know that if (or given the evidence, rather when) Margery is acquitted, there will be hell to pay from the Tyrells.

10)I explained this already. And if Margery is acquitted blame will fall on high septon not her. 

On 11/27/2020 at 5:48 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Cersei X

- Finally after the Faith have arrested Margery, adn she knows they have Lancel she decides the obvious best course of actions. She goes to teh Sept after Margery. What can go wrong? Ah yes, everything?

11) I think this was cersei's biggest failure as a ruler. 

 

If I was cersei I would done things like this, Show tommen how the realm is governed but don't give him power. Reinstate the faith militant, have them arrest Margaery and the kill the high septon. I wouldn't have osney kill the high septon I would have personally gone to the sept disguised of course and murdered the sexist pig myself. Then have my man raynard eleceted high septon, have him comdem Margaery but spare her an execution since I'm against killing innocents. Then in the next few months I would have poisoned mace, olenna, willias and garlan (loras dying at dragonstone). Then I would have replaced the tyrells with the tarlys. Randyll tarly's wife is a florent so I would have gotten the florents too. Since randyll is unmanageable I would have murdered him and married Margaery to dickon and ruled the reach till he came of age. 

I would have murdered little finger and harry the heir and annexed the vale and the riverlands as direct lands of crown. This will solve many problems. When aegon and job connington arrive they would have found a strong realm. Thus I would have fixed cersei's mistakes. 

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