The Mandalorian

[Toth]

8 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

I hope that Kyle Katarn is mentioned at some point. I know it would be an older reference but he is my favourite non-Kotor legendes character.

Given Filoni's status as a lifeboat for all things EU, I actually wouldn't be surprised.

I mean... seriously, he already referenced enough KotOR material that it's just a manner of time until we get Revan through a Holocron or something.

[Veltigar]

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for being so mindful about the spoilers. You guys are the best! 

Secondly, I have seen the episode myself by now and safe to say that my experience seems to have been different than that of the most of you. It definitely wasn't the worst episode this season, but boy given all the momentous stuff that happens I'd categorize it as a rather big dud honestly.

I can't really say anything without spoilering, but before I get into that, I'll be fully transparent and say that I have never seen the cartoons before (nor am I planning to. The few clips I see made me dislike the animation and even the people who like it seem to admit that there is a lot of filler). Apart from some wiki stuff, I know nothing about them.

Spoiler

There was a lot of stuff I disliked this episode, but this show is quite hard to critique in the sense that its very uniform in its stupidity. Unlike say, TROS, which has many mistakes but one glaringly dumb one (Palpie), I feel like The Mandalorian is always just a little off on most things and all those little annoyances together combine into a subpar product.

Things I didn't like here:

1. Ashoka Tano's looks: I have seen a few clips of Ashoka in the cartoons and it feels like she walked straight out of the cartoons. Everything about her screamed VFX and she didn't feel real, which is a huge miss for a show that is usually such a trailblazer when it comes to how good a tv-series can be.
2. Grogu reveal: The name is stupid, but his backstory is even more horrible. I really don't understand why we had to connect this to fucking prequels. It's a really a recurring SW issue I guess, needing to explain past stuff that doesn't really need explaining. They should have kept vague about the Kid's origins imo.
3. Ashoka's fighting skills: For a character that is so revered as a fighter and force wielder by fans, I was none too pleased by any of the action this episode It felt quite lackluster. How ridiculous is it that she doesn't use the Force on spear lady for instance?
   
   The duel in particular was shit. Not only choreographed poorly, but the way the fight was just as a storytelling device was just so incongruous to me. Spear lady had no special skills of her own and yet she was able to give Ashoka (a freaking jedi who was prepared for her) a hard time? That doesn't make a lick of sense if you ask me. Especially if, as I read up thread, she once fought Vader and had a good stab at it.
4. Michael Biehn's character: What a loser. I mean really what was he hoping to achieve with that move. He lays down a better weapon, which he had already drawn and seemed to have a wider range in order to get closer to Mando, to draw an inferior weapon from scratch against a Mandalorian covered in Beskar from head to toe... Even if he did succeed, what would his plan have been afterwards? Ashoka clearly had already won against spear lady... This was fucking terrible decision making of the villains for the umpteenth time (Also, why didn't those droids Mando shot last pop up earlier when they could have made a difference?)
5. The purpose of this episode: It seemed rather pointless really. Instead of finding a source of wisdom, guidance and training for Baby Yoda, we just get another side quest with ended in Mando claiming a cool weapon for later and not much else in other answers. The fact that he's again send on a treasure hunt is getting rather dull. 

The episode also felt derivative to the point of cheapness in many of its visuals. Kurosawa and Leone have both already been mentioned, but the fight against spear lady screamed Kill Bill Volume 1 for me. Really boring in the end. It's okay to pay homage to or draw inspiration from the past (like e.g. Indiana Jones did in the only three films made about him), but a lot of this felt lazy to the point of willful ignorance.

The only really good things I have to say is that the bad guy's stormtrooper equivalents felt more competent and that I liked the intro of Grand Admiral Thrawn. I heard a lot about that character over the years, but I hope to see more of him in the future.

 

[Toth]

20 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

I can't really say anything without spoilering, but before I get into that, I'll be fully transparent and say that I have never seen the cartoons before (nor am I planning to. The few clips I see made me dislike the animation and even the people who like it seem to admit that there is a lot of filler). Apart from some wiki stuff, I know nothing about them.

Well, yeah, absolutely fair criticisms.

Spoiler

In regards to Ahsoka's fighting style in the original cartoon, I better just leave this one here:

 

 

[TrueMetis]

Beskar being able to block lightsabers is something they just brought back from the EU, given how its so blaster resistant I'm not at all surprised this got brought back.

The "he's to attached to you to train" thing is dumb. It was always a stupid point, but it feel even dumber coming from Ahsoka, and when talking about a literal infant. Though Mando going even more dadalorian was pretty great.

I was generally disappointment with Ahsoka in this anyway. She didn't say or do anything that required this to be Ahsoka, it could have been literally anyone. (Also I don't expect cartoon kind of fights, but the choreography on the fights was pretty meh)

The fight with the magistrate shows why force choke should be a lightside power. Would end so many fights so much easier and with less violence. Just instead of the total choke just cut off blood flow for a bit. Or she could have just thrown the magistrate into a wall, if the fights not gonna be entertaining it at least could have been funny.

Seriously was the actor not able to practice? Was she hurt? Everything about how the fights were done looks like they were trying to avoid showing her to much.

Mando got a weapon upgrade, this is an RPG. He's gotten armour, jet pack, and weapon upgrades. If I know video games next will be an upgrade to his ship.

Grogu is a stupid name even among stupid Star Wars names. But I don't really care cause everyone's gonna keep calling him baby Yoda and Mando's gonna keep calling him kid.

Who wants to lay odds on Cal Kestis showing up?

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for being so mindful about the spoilers. You guys are the best! 

Secondly, I have seen the episode myself by now and safe to say that my experience seems to have been different than that of the most of you. It definitely wasn't the worst episode this season, but boy given all the momentous stuff that happens I'd categorize it as a rather big dud honestly.

I can't really say anything without spoilering, but before I get into that, I'll be fully transparent and say that I have never seen the cartoons before (nor am I planning to. The few clips I see made me dislike the animation and even the people who like it seem to admit that there is a lot of filler). Apart from some wiki stuff, I know nothing about them.

  Reveal hidden contents

There was a lot of stuff I disliked this episode, but this show is quite hard to critique in the sense that its very uniform in its stupidity. Unlike say, TROS, which has many mistakes but one glaringly dumb one (Palpie), I feel like The Mandalorian is always just a little off on most things and all those little annoyances together combine into a subpar product.

Things I didn't like here:

1. Ashoka Tano's looks: I have seen a few clips of Ashoka in the cartoons and it feels like she walked straight out of the cartoons. Everything about her screamed VFX and she didn't feel real, which is a huge miss for a show that is usually such a trailblazer when it comes to how good a tv-series can be.
2. Grogu reveal: The name is stupid, but his backstory is even more horrible. I really don't understand why we had to connect this to fucking prequels. It's a really a recurring SW issue I guess, needing to explain past stuff that doesn't really need explaining. They should have kept vague about the Kid's origins imo.
3. Ashoka's fighting skills: For a character that is so revered as a fighter and force wielder by fans, I was none too pleased by any of the action this episode It felt quite lackluster. How ridiculous is it that she doesn't use the Force on spear lady for instance?
   
   The duel in particular was shit. Not only choreographed poorly, but the way the fight was just as a storytelling device was just so incongruous to me. Spear lady had no special skills of her own and yet she was able to give Ashoka (a freaking jedi who was prepared for her) a hard time? That doesn't make a lick of sense if you ask me. Especially if, as I read up thread, she once fought Vader and had a good stab at it.
4. Michael Biehn's character: What a loser. I mean really what was he hoping to achieve with that move. He lays down a better weapon, which he had already drawn and seemed to have a wider range in order to get closer to Mando, to draw an inferior weapon from scratch against a Mandalorian covered in Beskar from head to toe... Even if he did succeed, what would his plan have been afterwards? Ashoka clearly had already won against spear lady... This was fucking terrible decision making of the villains for the umpteenth time (Also, why didn't those droids Mando shot last pop up earlier when they could have made a difference?)
5. The purpose of this episode: It seemed rather pointless really. Instead of finding a source of wisdom, guidance and training for Baby Yoda, we just get another side quest with ended in Mando claiming a cool weapon for later and not much else in other answers. The fact that he's again send on a treasure hunt is getting rather dull. 

The episode also felt derivative to the point of cheapness in many of its visuals. Kurosawa and Leone have both already been mentioned, but the fight against spear lady screamed Kill Bill Volume 1 for me. Really boring in the end. It's okay to pay homage to or draw inspiration from the past (like e.g. Indiana Jones did in the only three films made about him), but a lot of this felt lazy to the point of willful ignorance.

The only really good things I have to say is that the bad guy's stormtrooper equivalents felt more competent and that I liked the intro of Grand Admiral Thrawn. I heard a lot about that character over the years, but I hope to see more of him in the future.

 

As I was reading your (not surprising) criticisms, I kept thinking of Smeagol's line to Gollum from the movies "Leave now, and never come back!" 

Of course, I strongly disagree with almost all your critcisms.

Spoiler

You not being a fan of the SW at large, or at least not being much aware of the animated shows, may be part of the problem. 

Ahsoka looked great, and from what I could tell online, most fans would agree. Rosario Dawson did a great job, nailing her mannerisms. I heard some fans complained about her horns being too short, considering how she looked last time we saw her in the animated shows, but I would say the team quickly realized how difficult it would be to have such a head gear for an action-centric character in live action. It translated as well as it could have.

It's true that considering how badass she was in some of the recent stuff we saw her, this is a step down. But her intro action scene was very much what I would have expected from someone who doesn't consider herself a Jedi anymore, but in reality still is. 

It's been mentioned here that she didn't want to kill the magistrate. Could she have used the Force to throw her, hold her, disarm her - yeah, sure, but at this point we don't even know if she killed the magistrate, so Ahsoka could have afforded her an honorable fight. And spear lady's master, as revealed, is Thrawn, who is quite skilled in hand-to-hand. (See video below) 

But to say the choreography was bad. oof, I find your lack of perception disturbing. 

Grogu is not a stupid name, but that is entirely subjective. But there is nothing wrong with doing some tie-ins with the prequels. After all, that is what Ahsoka is, too. Again, fans agree that Dave Filoni redeemed the prequels period with The Clone Wars. Plus, the kid is at least 50 years old, as established; that is before any OT-related stories.

Mando is not going on a treasure hunt, he is once again attempting to find a place for Grogu (I will keep mentioning the name ) This is what this episode was about, and next one, too, with the inevitable obstacles and swerves. However, based on episodes 3 & 4, it's quite possible that the show is slowly laying the groundwork for a larger story.

I agree with you about Biehn's character. That is all. 

 

[Vaughn]

Hmm, what you are missing about Biehn's character is this - the setting. This is some absolute garbage town on a dead planet where some small time evil doer is holed up. What kind of talent is going to take that gig? I'm only slightly snarky - take a look at Gideon's big, kick-ass spaceship, think about what that implies about his power, resources, and opportunity for an amoral soldier to improve his lot vs. working for this woman in what I believe is the same town that the Once-ler is living in at the beginning of the Lorax - a dead end, shit gig. Of course he's bad at his job - if he was better, he'd be somewhere else.

If we're getting EU stuff into the cannon, I  really want a droid to call a human a meatbag.

[Kalbear]

So why is one of thrawns assistants hanging out in a shitty dead-end town somewhere shaking people down for funnies?

Some of the random quests have made some vague sense or at least fit the setting. This one was just bullshit. And why does Bo Katan know Ashoka is going to be there given that it ain't gonna take her long to wipe that small town apart?

Ahsoka needing any help is some serious bullshit too. As a teenager she took out most of a clone ship. As an adult she took on Vader. She beat maul. She is a jedi trained not in wampa caves and swamp running but as a full jedi. 

Again this show is pretty quite often, and so very stupid. 

[TrueMetis]

33 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

If we're getting EU stuff into the cannon, I  really want a droid to call a human a meatbag.

Apparently the two droids that were there were supposed to be HK series droids. Which are not exactly living up to the hype.

[Corvinus85]

40 minutes ago, Vaughn said:

Hmm, what you are missing about Biehn's character is this - the setting. This is some absolute garbage town on a dead planet where some small time evil doer is holed up. What kind of talent is going to take that gig? I'm only slightly snarky - take a look at Gideon's big, kick-ass spaceship, think about what that implies about his power, resources, and opportunity for an amoral soldier to improve his lot vs. working for this woman in what I believe is the same town that the Once-ler is living in at the beginning of the Lorax - a dead end, shit gig. Of course he's bad at his job - if he was better, he'd be somewhere else.

Are you being sarcastic with this line?

24 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

So why is one of thrawns assistants hanging out in a shitty dead-end town somewhere shaking people down for funnies?

She made a living out of exploiting planets to the bare bones for resources to build Imperial ships. Mando remarks that by the looks of things she is still in business. In the very first shot you can see factories in the distance. Pretty sure she was extracting resources for Thrawn.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

7 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I have a theory about something that was revealed in the most recent episode:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think Baby Yoda's real name, Grogu, is a Star Wars-ified version of George. The consonants are the same and so is the vowel sound between them, but with the vowel(sound) and the second consonant reversed. The "U" at the end makes sense to further Star Wars-ify the name especially when you can kind of see why other vowel(sound)s are ruled out, I think. Groga is too much like Yoda; Groge is either just Groag or Grogay, the latter might work I suppose; Grogi is too much like hoagie and looks too much like groggy; Grogo is too much like Drogo. Heck, maybe the "U" was borrowed from George's last name.

 

My guess is Dave Filoni came up with it and if he did, did so as a tribute to GL, and/or was inspired by his name.

 

The child's name isn't exactly a spoiler at this point so screw it.

I'm not saying this necessarily had anything to do with the decision making behind the episode, but bear with me:

"George" is the anglicized version of the greek name Γεώργιoς (Georgios). There is a patronymic of Georgios, meaning "son of" or "descended from", which is Γεωργίoυ (Georgiou).

'Could be that "Grogu" is a bastardized "Georgiou" rather than a sloppy anagram of "George".

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 hours ago, Veltigar said:

Secondly, I have seen the episode myself by now and safe to say that my experience seems to have been different than that of the most of you. It definitely wasn't the worst episode this season, but boy given all the momentous stuff that happens I'd categorize it as a rather big dud honestly.

While I don't share with some of your specific criticisms, I'd agree, yeah, this wasn't my favorite episode.  Highlights aside, I thought it was pretty clunky. This appears to be the minority view.

3 hours ago, Veltigar said:

 

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The only really good things I have to say is that the bad guy's stormtrooper equivalents felt more competent... 

 

That's because these guys are actual troops and not just survivors from the Imperial HR department that got stuffed into Stormtrooper armor. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

11 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Because Luke is a Jedi Master who is starting a Jedi Academy. It's past time to recast and slowly erase the sequels from collective conscience, like a disappeared General from a Soviet group photo.

Or Jeans Guy...

[Jaxom 1974]

7 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

But Vader was already feeling a connection with Luke, which is what Luke exploited. Leia, with training, could have taken Vader on, but who knows in what position the Rebels would have been by then. Yoda and Obi-Wan were way too inactive in getting Anakin's children ready to help bring down the Empire.

Make you wonder if Yoda and Obi-Wan even had a plan.  There seems to be no rush to get them ready, let alone share the information with Luke and Leia... maybe they were just believing in the force...?

[Jaxom 1974]

6 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Because Luke is a Jedi Master who is starting a Jedi Academy. It's past time to recast and slowly erase the sequels from collective conscience, like a disappeared General from a Soviet group photo.

Basically self proclaimed Jedi Master...but hey, let's not split hairs...

As to the greater point, I do agree that things need to progress from the timeline established by The Mandalorian and go forward from there...there rely wasn't three movies to shoehorn where they take this series into...just be organic about it.  If that means recasting Luke, Leia, and Han to tell a part of the tale, do it.  If Luke is going to have that Jedi School, do it.  Better yet, let's have Ezra Bridger and Asoka show up to teach some courses.  I am in favor of this. 

[DaveSumm]

9 hours ago, Veltigar said:

 

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Grogu reveal: The name is stupid, but his backstory is even more horrible. I really don't understand why we had to connect this to fucking prequels. It's a really a recurring SW issue I guess, needing to explain past stuff that doesn't really need explaining. They should have kept vague about the Kid's origins imo.

 

Quote

It’s hard to say how important all that is without knowing where the series is going. You can’t keep his origin ‘vague’ if they have major plans that incorporate that.

As to tying with the prequels, I don’t think they went out of their way to do that. But the problem is, Grogu is clearly already using the Force in a more advanced way than anyone untrained has (let’s not get side tracked with a Rey discussion), and so must have been trained. The only people who could’ve done that were pre-order 66 Jedi. Plus, we know his species live for ~900 years, so he’s probably older than the ~25ish years he’d need to be to have been born after the prequels. All those factors force us back into prequel territory.

9 hours ago, Veltigar said:

 

Spoiler

 

The purpose of this episode: It seemed rather pointless really. Instead of finding a source of wisdom, guidance and training for Baby Yoda, we just get another side quest with ended in Mando claiming a cool weapon for later and not much else in other answers. The fact that he's again send on a treasure hunt is getting rather dull. 

 

 

Spoiler

Well, I personally love that this show is much more episodic than what we’re used to today. To say it’s pointless implies that it has to propel a season arc forward somehow, when I’ve no problem at all with stand alone episodes (plus, the show arc is the kid ... so I’m not sure where you want it to go if you don’t want to delve into his origin). I do agree it leans on the “OK I’ll tell you X but first you gotta help me Y” setup too heavily. I’d rather they just embraced the standalone format and didn’t even bother trying to tie it to something greater; just have Mando and Grogu living and surviving for another week.

 

7 hours ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Ahsoka needing any help is some serious bullshit too. As a teenager she took out most of a clone ship. As an adult she took on Vader. She beat maul. She is a jedi trained not in wampa caves and swamp running but as a full jedi. 

Well whether you think it makes sense or not is up to you, but the episode clearly set out the problem; she could’ve wiped out the village easily, but not without civilian deaths. She needed Mando to deal with that problem while she did most of the badassery.

[DaveSumm]

9 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

 

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The "he's to attached to you to train" thing is dumb. It was always a stupid point, but it feel even dumber coming from Ahsoka, and when talking about a literal infant. Though Mando going even more dadalorian was pretty great.

I was generally disappointment with Ahsoka in this anyway. She didn't say or do anything that required this to be Ahsoka, it could have been literally anyone. (Also I don't expect cartoon kind of fights, but the choreography on the fights was pretty meh)

 

Ahsoka was as close as anyone to Anakin (barring Obi-Wan) during her training, so she knows better than anyone alive what an emotional attachment can lead to. In terms of somebody giving us exposition on Grogu, but who would be wary of training him, you literally couldn’t do better than Ahsoka out of everyone in the whole galaxy. Also she seemed to cast doubt on how much of an infant he really is. He’s young, but he’s been trained by ‘multiple masters’. He seems to have regressed due to the fucked up stuff that has been done to him in trying to extract his midichlorians or whatever they were doing.

Also worth pointing out that Ahsoka left the order while she was still a padowan to Anakin; she’s never trained anybody. So I can definitely understand why she’d be very scared of getting it wrong with Grogu.

[Toth]

I interpreted Ahsoka's arguments twofold. The attachment is evil thing was her reiterating old Jedi dogma, which I think was a bad decision because I do think Ahsoka should be skeptical enough of the infallibility of their teachings after the shit they pulled with her and how she witnessed first-hand how the council's dickery pushed Anakin into the status of a pariah. Even after learning of Anakin's fall in Rebels, Ahsoka brings up his compassion for his friends as his best attribute, so I don't think she would make the connection that this was responsible for his fall.

On the other hand however I'm fairly certain that Ahsoka's thought process was mostly "You are obviously his dad now, I'll have you run circles until you realize that!" with the quest to Tython just being a means to an end. So maybe even the former stuff could have been just an excuse to not have Mando dump his kid to some stranger.

To the duel scene: I think we all would have had no problem with a more equal fight if the opponent was a Sith Inquisitor who has the reflexes and the Force powers to not get utterly crushed by a trained Jedi and Clone Wars veteran and not just some lady with a spear. This was just an egregious case of style having been more important to Filoni than common sense.

Saying that... this whole discussion about bringing in more EU characters made me realize something... Filoni has brought back Thrawn and Pellaeon, we are just a few years after Return of the Jedi, we have a story involving force-sensitive clones...

... I feel like given the places and folks Mando usually hangs out with, it's just a matter of time until Mando runs into Talon Karrde and Mara Jade, maybe even have Ahsoka face Jorus C'Baoth.

... could it be he's trying to set it up so that he can walk to Disney and say "Fuck it, let's just do the Thrawn Trilogy!" as a spin-off.

I would absolutely be up to that!

[Rippounet]

9 hours ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Again this show is pretty quite often, and so very stupid. 

Yup. Pure entertainment, but better not think too hard about anything.

12 hours ago, Veltigar said:

The episode also felt derivative to the point of cheapness in many of its visuals.

I think that was the point.

In this show it's "rule of cool" before anything else.
I'm not saying it's great all the time, but I'd say it's pretty clear from the start. At this point we all know we're seeing someone's StarWars roleplaying campaign, and the DM doesn't care about pulling things out of his ass if it feels cool.

They could have aimed for better, but avoided risks.
Given how unforgiving the fandom is, I won't blame them.

[Heartofice]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I loved the episode. I think a lot of people have got a bee up their bum about this show, when really it's the most fun, light entertainment highlight of my week. Notice the words 'light entertainment' there, because thats exactly how I view it. 

I sat back and marvelled at the new locations, thinking it all just looked beautiful, the smoggy vista, the large dino things in the background, the fort and the buildings. The episode structure was simple but effective, it introduced some new, quite cool characters, it played on some classic western tropes, there was a bit of a reveal in terms of info about the characters and plot, and the whole thing moved forward. Honestly I have no higher expectations than that about the show.

Maybe it's because I have zero interest in watching Clone Wars or Rebels that I really don't dwell too much on what could or couldn't happen to so and so, and it allows to me to just be carried along by the show. Even last week, which I thought was on the whole I quite poor episode in comparison (mainly due to some bad acting and laclustre action) I still enjoyed he hell out of it. 

I'm still of the opinion that I can be thankful that I'm getting a Star Wars tv show and it looks and feels just how I want a Star Wars tv show to look and feel. After the Prequels and Sequels, its very easy to be thankful for this. 

Thought Ahsoka did look a bit odd though, too colourful for the rest of the shows aesthetic. Other than that...

[Vaughn]

11 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Are you being sarcastic with this line?

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Arquitens-class_command_cruiser

So a 750 crew starship with various weapons systems including on-board tie fighters and a crew of dark troopers isn't way more impressive than a filthy mill town on a dead planet? Agree to disagree. He also has the dark saber and a network of agents.