The Mandalorian

[RumHam]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

Grand Admiral Thrawn is...not all that loyal to the Empire? And one of the people responsible for building the entire Empire army is...also not that loyal to the Empire?

I guess they could go that way, but that seems pretty ludicrous given Thrawn's previous backstory both in the books and in Rebels. 

I don't think the old books are relevant. From wookipedia (the canon part)

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 Despite swearing loyalty to the Empire,^[4] he also remained loyal to the Chiss, believing Emperor Palpatine only commanded the loyalty of his actions. The loyalty of the Grand Admiral's heart and mind remained with the Chiss Ascendancy.^[6]

 

Quote

Thrawn was given his mission; he would infiltrate the Empire in order to either make them an ally or to weaken them as easy prey for the threat to attack instead of the Ascendancy. In order to carry out this mission, Thrawn proceeded to fake his exile.^[4]

 

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I don't think the old books are relevant. From wookipedia (the canon part)

 

 

Is that last bit a Yuuzhan Vong thing? I recall Vergere birdsplaining that ole' Palps knew that the Vong were coming and that was why he built the Death Star and the Siths were better because they could create a "safe, and secure... so-si-ity". I wasn't crazy about that idea, but since she's a lying bird liar who lies I thought it was a fair deployment of cannon.

[RumHam]

Just now, Jace, Basilissa said:

Is that last bit a Yuuzhan Vong thing? I recall Vergere birdsplaining that ole' Palps knew that the Vong were coming and that was why he built the Death Star and the Siths were better because they could create a "safe, and secure... so-si-ity". I wasn't crazy about that idea, but since she's a lying bird liar who lies I thought it was a fair deployment of cannon.

I'm not sure, this is basically all it says:

Quote

The Ascendancy had discovered a mysterious threat in the Unknown Regions, and wished to know if the Galactic Republic would be a suitable ally against the threat.^[4]

Apparently it's mentioned in the Thrawn novel. It's worth noting that they've already ret-conned a few things from the new-canon books. 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

I'm not sure, this is basically all it says:

Apparently it's mentioned in the Thrawn novel. It's worth noting that they've already ret-conned a few things from the new-canon books. 

As the Germans say, "das thank you."

[Kalbear]

25 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Thrawn forcibly recruits the Imperial remnants into his coalition in his first appearance. He seems comfortable doing his own thing. One could easily imagine him making sure there was no one around who could pull rank on him before making his move. Also, Thrawn has a lot in common with Winston Duarte. I expect you to understand this means he will not act until he expects to win.

It doesn't explain why he'd have a bunch of random thugs instead of Imperials working for him or his people. 

25 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Meanwhile, this lady setting up a shadow despotate in order to keep making weapons without drawing direct Rebellion (I called their illegal government what I called it) or Imperial Remnant attention makes a lot of galactic political sense. Why would Thrawn want people thinking a big Imperial rearmament was underway before he was ready to deploy said arms? Makes no sense, playa.

If that's the case, she shouldn't have enslaved and tortured a bunch of random people. That's not a great way to avoid attention. Especially from the new Republic. Taking over a small town by force for...uh, reasons...is not a way you lay low. Compare to what they were doing on Nevarro where the base was so secret that the whole town nearby didn't think anything of it, despite it being very active. 

It's a Western pastiche - the drifter teams up with another one to kick out the murderous person who took over a town with their gang. I get that. And that is fine for one-off shows. But it makes no sense with someone with a beskar staff and massive connections.

[Vaughn]

BTW, I'd like to point out that Ahsoka agrees with my theory that Baby Yoda turns Sith by the end of this season.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

 

It's a Western pastiche - the drifter teams up with another one to kick out the murderous person who took over a town with their gang. I get that. And that is fine for one-off shows. But it makes no sense with someone with a beskar staff and massive connections.

Rebels and Clone Wars tended to have some story bits that seemed random and out of place, but eventually circled back around to making sense in the end, didn't they...?

[Corvinus85]

4 hours ago, RumHam said:

Someone did edit him into RoTS. 

Everyone hated the special editions of the OT, but I wish they would revise the prequels officially in a similar way and try to make them suck less and connect to The Clone Wars and other subsequent stuff better. 

Seems the likely explanation is that she's not part of the imperial remnant. I'm not sure Thrawn was all that loyal to the empire, maybe just using them as a means to an end. 

They should edit him in the AotC scene when Yoda mocks Obi-Wan in front of the younglings. 

[karaddin]

6 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Also, I know this silliness is more the prequels' fault, but about Baby Yoda: he can't be trained as a Jedi because he's attached to the Mandalorian and has fear inside him. But, despite the fact that he's 50 years old and has been through a lot, Baby Yoda seems to be at the development stage of a toddler, or maybe a 4-5 year old. Just about every 4-5 year old (or two year old) has attachments and feels fear. How is it possible for anybody to become a Jedi? Do they swipe babies at birth?

 

Actually....pretty much yeah. Its fucked up. Isn't Anakin being too old one of the objections in TPM as well? Or was that just his attachment? Either way, TCW definitely shows kids being inducted into the order *very young*.

I'm in the "not as happy with Ahsoka as I'd hoped" camp. In my case its probably being a victim of my own expectations, at this point she's my favourite character in the IP and a real actress was never going to be able to move like her cartoon version does. But still, they kept cutting away from Dawson at odd times (or cutting back to her landing) in ways that really gave the impression they weren't overly happy with how it looked as well. I was also bothered by the montrals not looking quite right to me. 

I was OK to ignore all the "turn the brain off for rule of cool" aspects of the episode, it was just Ahsoka not living up to my lofty expectations. I think the Siege of Mandalore fight with Maul is to blame, that fight was heavily mocapped so if they got a stunt person that was able to move at my expectations then I was hoping they'd manage the live action too.

[Heartofice]

10 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I don't know that I'm expecting The Wire from this. I'm hoping for the show to do something at all interesting characterwise or plotwise, which isn't a high bar to get over. The best of the old cheesy adventure shows from the 90s and 2000s had characters you loved to root for and villains you loved to hate. This show has Baby Yoda

Well I kind of disagree here. I think the show is actually doing all of those things. I really like Mando and Baby Yoda as a pair and I think there is some great interesting chemistry there. Sure Mando is basically a blank slate as you never see his face, but there is enough in the acting to make me like his character.
I think there have also been some interesting characters throughout the show, and in terms of bad guys I think Moff Gideon is cool and it had Werner Herzog in it! 
Plus, sure the individual stories inside each episode are hardly mind blowing, but they are simple and entertaining. There is also a longer strand to the plot that does at least hint at something interesting. What is the potential of baby yoda, what will happen with these new force sensitive storm troopers, where is Thrawn. It isn't like it's just a bland trek from place to place with no through line. 

10 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Also, I know this silliness is more the prequels' fault, but about Baby Yoda: he can't be trained as a Jedi because he's attached to the Mandalorian and has fear inside him. But, despite the fact that he's 50 years old and has been through a lot, Baby Yoda seems to be at the development stage of a toddler, or maybe a 4-5 year old. Just about every 4-5 year old (or two year old) has attachments and feels fear. How is it possible for anybody to become a Jedi? Do they swipe babies at birth?

 

This stuff just isn't bothering me, and I get the sense that there is a level of impatience at the show because viewers want answers now and expect things to happen and the whole plot to move forward rapidly. I think there is a clash of expectations. I don't see the show in that way. If the show wants to slowly advance the big picture whilst having fun adventures along the way then I'm ok with that. If we don't get all the answers about baby Yoda for 3 seasons then I don't care. I think we are just coming at the show from different perspectives.

As for Baby Yoda still being an infant, wasn't Yoda 900 years old when he died? Who knows what the development stage of a Yoda is? 

[Werthead]

6 hours ago, karaddin said:

Actually....pretty much yeah. Its fucked up. Isn't Anakin being too old one of the objections in TPM as well? Or was that just his attachment? Either way, TCW definitely shows kids being inducted into the order *very young*.

In The Clone Wars' flashback episodes, Ahsoka is taken from her family to train as a Jedi at the age of three. They really do get them very young.

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What it isn't, however, is quality TV. It's quite pretty, and occasionally cool as shit in the same way a Kung Fu movie can be, but it isn't much else. 

It is quality TV. The production values are huge, the actors are superb, the tone and atmosphere are very well-done and the technology they're using for the show is absolutely beyond cutting-edge. It's just quality disposable TV, which I think is a perfectly valid approach to take (I'd rank some other modern shows, like Into the Badlands, in the same category).

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They have the opportunity to really do serialized shows now, and they're just...not.

You should only do a serialised show if you have a really good, long story that requires it. And as we've seen in the new "Golden Age of TV", there are far, far too many shows that try to be serialised when they just don't have the narrative need for it (the new Trek shows, almost all of the Marvel Netflix shows), just because it's the current in-thing. I'd much rather have this format of stand-alone episodes with some connective tissue that they can do really well rather than trying to make an "eight-hour movie" when they don't have enough material to make it work.

I do agree you can only stay with one paradigm for a certain amount of time though, and either have to change things up or end the show. If it's right they're shooting for four seasons, they're almost at the halfway point which is usually when there's a dramatic shift in the storytelling.

I do think the meta-story of the show will be defeating Moff Gideon and Bo-Katan getting the Darksabre back and maybe Grogu goes back to his homeworld to live in peaceful obscurity (thus avoiding having to either imply he's killed by the First Order or explain why he doesn't show up in the ST). Or maybe Favreau and Filoni decide to go for broke, bring in Ahsoka as a recurring character, maybe kill Gideon early (this season) and have a cliffhanger ending with Lars Mikkelsen stepping dramatically out of the shadows as Thrawn. I still think that'd be better for an Ahsoka-focused spin-off though. This show should primarily be about the Mando and he doesn't have any history with Thrawn, whilst clearly he's developed a beef with Gideon.

[Veltigar]

14 hours ago, Kalbear Total Landscaping said:

I think that's really it. I am having a perfectly fine time watching it - just like I did Rebels and Clone Wars - and the highs are quite cool. But most of it is entirely forgettable as soon as I watch it. It's the equivalent of TV junk food. And that's fine! I do wish it was more, and I do wish it was better, but good junk food is good too. 

What it isn't, however, is quality TV. It's quite pretty, and occasionally cool as shit in the same way a Kung Fu movie can be, but it isn't much else. And Rebels and Clone Wars had a number of good characters here and there too and a lot of personal interaction; we don't get that here nearly as much, and for me the monotony of the single character with little plot driving is getting tiresome.

I also really dislike the Quest of the Week format that they're doing. Which again is taken almost verbatim from Avatar, at least early on, but it gets pretty old pretty fast. They have the opportunity to really do serialized shows now, and they're just...not. At least not here.

 

Apart from not having seen rebels or clone wars, this perfectly sums up the way I feel about this show. Having to endure lock down, watching this show with a friend is like the best moment of the week. I order some take-out from McDonalds and combine that junk food with the junk food on tv. It is a measure of just how sad 2020 is that this is the big one. 

12 minutes ago, Werthead said:

 

It is quality TV. The production values are huge, the actors are superb, the tone and atmosphere are very well-done and the technology they're using for the show is absolutely beyond cutting-edge. It's just quality disposable TV, which I think is a perfectly valid approach to take (I'd rank some other modern shows, like Into the Badlands, in the same category).

I never knew you were such a big Gina Carano fan Wert  I'd say the actors are by-the-by serviceable. I haven't really seen anything very impressive yet on that front. The only one really breaking the mold is Gina and that's not meant as a compliment. 

I'll give you the production values, tone and atmosphere though. I would however like to reiterate that those only make part of a show. If technology fetishism had any base in reality, we would all be hailing the prequels as amazing after all. To earn that moniker quality, you have to combine those production values with some quality writing. 

[Caligula_K3]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Well I kind of disagree here. I think the show is actually doing all of those things. I really like Mando and Baby Yoda as a pair and I think there is some great interesting chemistry there. Sure Mando is basically a blank slate as you never see his face, but there is enough in the acting to make me like his character.
I think there have also been some interesting characters throughout the show, and in terms of bad guys I think Moff Gideon is cool and it had Werner Herzog in it! 
 

 

Werner Herzog was great! I was so disappointed when they killed him off, because he had the makings of a great villain, especially with that speech he gave... right before the show killed him for no real reason. I'm still not sure what Moff Gideon got out of that. Moff Gideon has promise, but they need to do more with him than show him smirking at the camera occasionally and giving him Gus Fring's greatest hits.

I do think part of the problem is Mando. It's not that Pascal is doing a bad job or anything, it's that he's both given very little to work with (he gets two kinds of dialogue: stoic cool and lightly glib); combine that with the helmet and I find it very hard to form any attachment to him. The show also wastes opportunities to give Pascal any meatier scenes; for me, the season's biggest wasted opportunity is not doing more with Mando discovering that his way of the Mandalore is not the only one out there, which should be a gamechanging moment in this guy's life. Again, I'm not asking for the Wire or Game of Thrones or even Firefly; just some basic character development or fun character dynamics.

Plotwise, it's not that I'm impatient for it to develop; it's that I'd like there to be a plot, beyond vague "find someone baby Yoda can train with" and assorted sidequests. And with this show, it's never clear whether plot developments are actually setting something up for the Mandalorian; is Ahsoka and Thrawn going to be a key element of the show, or is this just setting up a spinoff, like the Cara Dune stuff last week?

The production values are through the roof, it's true. The show has an excellent cast of actors, though it might as well have a cast of Cara Dunes since it rarely gives them any material. But if this show is just trying to be the equivalent of a kids' cartoon- then that feels to me to be a waste of these production values and actors, and it feels strange to me that it's getting such a huge reception for being such an unambitious show. I'm not saying it's a bad show; I can enjoy myself while watching some episodes. But in a world where Game of Thrones Season 8 is pilloried for being too much style over substance, or The Force Awakens is criticized for being derivative... I don't get it.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

But in a world where Game of Thrones Season 8 is pilloried for being too much style over substance, or The Force Awakens is criticized for being derivative... I don't get it.

The difference I'd say was in what those properties were purporting to be, vs what they really were. Game of Thrones, for at least 4 seasons was a reasonably intricate, complex web of story telling, with high production values and was very well written. It descended into some Michael Bay shit by the end, whilst still trying to give off the impression it was the clever show it once was.

The Force Awakens is generally given a pass because it's not the prequels, but it does take itself rather seriously and is trying to achieve greatness and equal the heights of the OT.

Mandalorian I think is a low investment tv show that isn't looking to be Sopranos in space. It doesn't come across like it's trying to be something it isn't. Everything about the show shouts that it's a throwback to old pulp serial shows, from the scenarios to the awesome painting end sequences. It's purposefully shallow. It reminds me of the Witcher, which I think would have been much better had it just gone with Mandalorians format, and in the end I think it got bogged down in quite a dry complex story that didn't suit it.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

The production values are through the roof, it's true. The show has an excellent cast of actors, though it might as well have a cast of Cara Dunes since it rarely gives them any material. But if this show is just trying to be the equivalent of a kids' cartoon- then that feels to me to be a waste of these production values and actors, and it feels strange to me that it's getting such a huge reception for being such an unambitious show. I'm not saying it's a bad show; I can enjoy myself while watching some episodes. But in a world where Game of Thrones Season 8 is pilloried for being too much style over substance, or The Force Awakens is criticized for being derivative... I don't get it.

I agree that GOT S8 criticism got really out of hand, but TFA was absolutely derivative.  Beat for beat, it's really similar to ANH. Not that this is a deal breaker.  ANH looks pretty damn good compared to what followed.

Speaking of cartoons, watching the opening of the recent episode, I was reminded how really, really violent The Clone Wars television series was. In her first encounter with Death Watch, Asoka straight-up decapitates several Mandalorians. Their heads don't actually fall off, but c'mon.

[Rippounet]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I'll give you the production values, tone and atmosphere though. I would however like to reiterate that those only make part of a show. If technology fetishism had any base in reality, we would all be hailing the prequels as amazing after all. To earn that moniker quality, you have to combine those production values with some quality writing. 

Not sure anyone said The Mandalorian was "amazing" as a whole. Pretty much everyone has been saying that the writing tends to be underwhelming.

Cool images do have some value though, which is presumably why we watch a lot of otherwise mediocre stuff.

BTW, since you hate the PT, I'm not sure what "quality writing" you've ever seen in StarWars. I mean, the best plot twists of the OT weren't even really planned in the first movie, so I'm not sure when StarWars was ever well written.
If anything, as per StarWars standards, The Mandalorian is quite clearly above average.

[SpaceChampion]

I thought of Kill Bill when I saw that fight, and glad someone made this:

 

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

It is quality TV. The production values are huge, the actors are superb, the tone and atmosphere are very well-done and the technology they're using for the show is absolutely beyond cutting-edge. It's just quality disposable TV, which I think is a perfectly valid approach to take (I'd rank some other modern shows, like Into the Badlands, in the same category).

As others said, 'the actors are superb' is pretty funny. The actors are very, very mixed. Some are great, some have been great in other roles, and others are Gina Carano. 

But really, no, it's not quality TV. It's expensive TV, but that doesn't make quality any more than a gold-plated toilet makes the toilet better. There are plenty of shows with high production values that aren't particularly high quality. The analogy I'd use is a AAA game that isn't that fun to play; it's high production, but not particularly high quality.

Quality is of course subjective, and if all you care about is visuals then you can win this argument, but the storyline is a dumbed down version of Rebels so far. 

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

You should only do a serialised show if you have a really good, long story that requires it. And as we've seen in the new "Golden Age of TV", there are far, far too many shows that try to be serialised when they just don't have the narrative need for it (the new Trek shows, almost all of the Marvel Netflix shows), just because it's the current in-thing. I'd much rather have this format of stand-alone episodes with some connective tissue that they can do really well rather than trying to make an "eight-hour movie" when they don't have enough material to make it work.

I do agree you can only stay with one paradigm for a certain amount of time though, and either have to change things up or end the show. If it's right they're shooting for four seasons, they're almost at the halfway point which is usually when there's a dramatic shift in the storytelling.

I do think the meta-story of the show will be defeating Moff Gideon and Bo-Katan getting the Darksabre back and maybe Grogu goes back to his homeworld to live in peaceful obscurity (thus avoiding having to either imply he's killed by the First Order or explain why he doesn't show up in the ST). Or maybe Favreau and Filoni decide to go for broke, bring in Ahsoka as a recurring character, maybe kill Gideon early (this season) and have a cliffhanger ending with Lars Mikkelsen stepping dramatically out of the shadows as Thrawn. I still think that'd be better for an Ahsoka-focused spin-off though. This show should primarily be about the Mando and he doesn't have any history with Thrawn, whilst clearly he's developed a beef with Gideon.

Apparently Ahsoka has already been greenlit for a spinoff with Dawson, so this is basically just setting up her story I suspect. 

I guess I'm mostly complaining about the idea that they don't have the narrative need for it. I want that narrative. I want that 'B5 in Star Wars' that not only has a endpoint thought about but has a lot of meat and changes along the way. The actual narrative so far is paper-thin. 

I also suspect strongly that Disney ain't gonna let them end after 4 seasons. It's one of the main things holding the Disney+ platform up. 

[Veltigar]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Not sure anyone said The Mandalorian was "amazing" as a whole. Pretty much everyone has been saying that the writing tends to be underwhelming.

It has been lauded as quality tv in the post I replied to. For me, amazing is one of the key attributes of Quality TV, perhaps not to you?

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Cool images do have some value though, which is presumably why we watch a lot of otherwise mediocre stuff.

Never claimed otherwise. You need both to achieve succes. The OT for example is a pretty good example of striking the right balance. It had a great story and great effects. It's a shame that modern blockbuster cinema tends to forget the lessons of the OT. There is an over reliance on VFX, without taking the importance of the writing into account. Not smart, as effects can date (hello prequels), while good writing is far better at retaining its value.

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

BTW, since you hate the PT, I'm not sure what "quality writing" you've ever seen in StarWars. I mean, the best plot twists of the OT weren't even really planned in the first movie, so I'm not sure when StarWars was ever well written.
If anything, as per StarWars standards, The Mandalorian is quite clearly above average.

A lot to unpack in this comment. Let's start by this idea that the OT has bad writing. I can't even begin to fathom how anyone can think that. A New Hope is the perfect template for an action adventure movie. It has iconic characters, witty banter and a simple but very well executed plot.

The fact that it didn't really set up any of the big reveals in Empire which made the series so great is also hardly something to hold against it. In hindsight, Lucas was incredibly lucky that they were able to retcon a lot of stuff and go for the story in Empire. That movie really cemented the SW legacy. He just got lucky. That happens sometimes. Compare it to one hit wonders. A lot of them aren't necessarily great musicians, but they once had everything going their way and made something great.

In the end, as a viewer, I don't really care about how they got there, the only thing I care about is getting a quality product. It just so happens you are more likely to get that with some degree of planning (fuck you shitquels), but the OT proves that you can also be lucky. Not something I'd put money down on, but weirder things have happened.

As to the point that the Mandalorian is above average per SW. I don't really care. As I stated up thread when someone claimed that the Clone Wars cartoon somehow redeemed the prequels, that's just not how it works. You have to judge the work at hand on its own merit and not really give it a pass because so much else was shit. Imagine if you have a kid who comes home with a D in biology. That means they clearly flunked the subject. Does the information that the kid had an F on his last three tests on math, modern languages and PE. Does that make the D in biology any better? No, it doesn't.

 

[RumHam]

Interview with Filoni and Dawson

spoiler's for Rebels:

Quote

 

That quest, we learn, is a search for the villain Grand Admiral Thrawn. The last time fans saw Ahsoka was this spring's finale of The Clone Wars, but in the actual Star Wars chronology, the last time we saw her was at the end of Rebels, venturing off with Sabine Wren to find Ezra Bridger, who vanished along with Thrawn. Where does that scene fit in with where we find her in The Mandalorian?

Filoni: Right. But no, it's an interesting one… That's not necessarily chronological. I think the thing that people will most not understand is they want to go in a linear fashion, but as I learned as a kid, nothing in Star Wars really works  in a linear fashion. You do [Episodes] Four, Five and Six and then One, Two, and Three. So in the vein of that history, when you look at the epilogue of Rebels you don't really know how much time has passed. So, it's possible that the story I'm telling in The Mandalorian actually takes place prior to that. Possible. I'm saying it's possible.

 

So it seems like they're at least considering ret-conning the timing of that final Rebels scene. But that's would mean she and Sabine never went to the unknown regions and instead just waited to hear that Thrawn was back? kinda lame.