Robert didnt bankrupt the crown. Littlefinger Embezzled it.

[The Young Maester]

3 minutes ago, Gramse said:

Also lets not forget one gaoler (Rugen?) who is in reality Varys. We hear from a Jamie POV that he was rarely there.

A secret pact between LF and Varys?

 

Oh yeah Varys definitely has someone in the dungeons working for him. In case you know someone he needs gets imprisoned.

4 minutes ago, Gramse said:

This fits well with the Illyrio connection.

Perhaps setting LF whore houses up with slaves once Pentos can start trading slaves again?

Jeyne Poole rings a bell. However its too risky for Baelish to do such a thing.

[Gramse]

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime I

Mention that royal blood once more and I may spill some of it, thought Jaime. "Who saw these reports?"

"Certain of them went to the master of coin, others to the master of whisperers. All to the chief gaoler and the King's Justice. It has always been so in the dungeons." Longwaters scratched his nose. "Rugen was here when need be, my lord. That must be said. The black cells are little used. 

 

 

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"Tell me of the two gaolers who went to sleep."

"Gaolers?" Longwaters sniffed. "Those were no gaolers. They were merely turnkeys. The crown pays wages for twenty turnkeys, my lord, a full score, but during my time we have never had more than twelve. We are supposed to have six undergaolers as well, two on each level, but there are only the three."

"You and two others?"

 

 

 

A Feast for Crows - Jaime III

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"And for that task, Ser Ilyn Payne was singularly ill suited. As he could neither read, nor write, nor speak, Ser Ilyn had left the running of the dungeons to his underlings, such as they were. The realm had not had a Lord Confessor since the second Daeron, however, and the last Chief Gaoler had been a cloth merchant who purchased the office from Littlefinger during Robert's reign. "

 

 

 

 

So the reports go to LF and some to Varys and ser Ilyn Payne who cant read or speak is in charge... interesting set up.

 

[Aldarion]

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You seem to assume that having the treasury empty is a sign of missmanagement. It isn't. In fact, every single financial adviser in the world would told you that the opposite is true.

Every single country in the world is in debt. How much debt is optimal in relation to the generated incomes is a matter of debate, but no economist defends a no debt policy.

In the books, we get a skewed view because we get to know about the crown's debt through the eyes of Ned, a frugal conservative from a backward region with little knowledge of trade and economics.

(I'm not saying that Littlefinger didn't commit fraud. He probably did. I just want to stress that puting the crown in debt, increase public spending, investing in profitable business and keep the taxes low are all very sensible economic policies after a war and/or recession. It's Keynes 1.0, basically.)

Just a note here, but you are making a mistake in looking at this through modern economic perspective. All medieval kingdoms ran a gold standard: they could not have advanced monetary policy, because there was only so much gold, silver and copper to mint the coins. So unlike modern governments, you couldn't just print the money and rely on inflation to help you. Debasement was possible, but was also a terrible idea since it reduced the value of coinage far more than it should have done so nominally (that is, based on the value of metal). Just a short look here.

Also, empty treasury and being in debt are not the same thing. Being in debt is not a sign of mismanagement, necessarily, and you are correct in that. But empty treasury very much is. If you are in debt, you need to pay interest, yes. But as long as you have money, you can do stuff with it: invest, build, hire, loan; everything government does. But when treasury is empty, you cannot do anything because you have no money.

Robert's (or rather Littlefinger's) monetary policy was not that bad, true. But it was too extreme, too overdone, to the point that it was falling apart.

[FictionIsntReal]

Steven Attewell made this argument years ago, originally at Tower of the Hand, and now at his wordpress site: Who Stole Westeros?

I see some people bringing up the idea that LF was brought into resolve some pre-existing problems with the realm's finances, but the books don't say anything about that (or even who was Master of Coin while he was in Gulltown).

[Lord Varys]

The fundamental flaw of this idea is that Littlefinger wasn't Master of Coin nor even in KL for most of Robert's reign ... and that he was brought in to consolidate the finances of the Crown - which means things were bad long before Littlefinger took over the treasury.

Aerys II left a full treasury ... and the last debts the Crown seems to have had under his reign were the monies owed to the Iron Bank paid back by Tywin in the 260s.

Littlefinger does embezzle the Crown - but Robert Baratheon does beggar the Crown. He is a completely careless and irresponsible spender, and if you have trouble wrap your head around that because of numbers and stuff ... then just imagine Robert's reign from 283-289 AC as one big party, one expensive tourney, ball, feast, etc. following the next. Robert also had to rebuild the royal fleet from scratch, it seems, considering the Targaryen ships - and most of their Narrow Sea vassals - would have been destroyed in the night of Dany's birth. And we do know that ships are very costly, and Robert may have built scores or perhaps even hundreds. And then you can add the cost of the Rebellion on Robert's part - which he would have only paid after his victory - as well as his later war against the Ironborn.

But in the end Robert is just a guy who grew accustomed to spend big and continued to do so long after his treasury was emptied ... no matter the cost, pun intended. That is not that difficult to understand.

The way Littlefinger enriches himself seems to be rather subtle - insider trading, simony, and, one imagines, by taking a decent percentage of the increased income he makes for the Crown. But the way things are set up it is not even unclear whether anything of that sort is illegal. If you are useful to the folks in power you also get your rewards and cuts in such a setting.

Even back in Gulltown, chances are not that bad that Littlefinger grew wealthy simply by following his nice guy approach. He ingratiated himself with the wealthy traders and merchants of Gulltown, and then invested and reinvested the original capital he acquired, multiplying his assets. The man had neither castle nor court to maintain, he could essentially put all his cash into many different enterprises, both in KL, Gulltown, and abroad.

As for the 'the Crown pays non-existent officials' - that is actually a scheme developed used by Varys in his Rugen persona - something that must have been set up during the reign of the Mad King. Littlefinger may also have a finger in that business, but you should not make a vast fortune by collecting the salaries of mid-tier royal officials.

Littlefinger isn't as wealthy as he appears or implies he is - we don't know how rich he actually is - but because he should have very low coasts compared to any lord who actually has to maintain a castle/court and a garrison and do his other duties ... especially feast the king if he comes knocking. He could have just the income of an average (small) lord ... while having essentially none of the running costs such a lord has to deal with.

[FictionIsntReal]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

he was brought in to consolidate the finances of the Crown - which means things were bad long before Littlefinger took over the treasury.

Where did it say that?

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imagine Robert's reign from 283-289 AC as one big party, one expensive tourney, ball, feast, etc. following the next

You'll have to use your imagination because that's not actually in the text.

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Robert may have built scores or perhaps even hundreds

He "may have"? We can imagine that he built a thousand, then burned them just so he could build them again as long as we're making stuff up! We don't know the scale of shipbuilding occurred, and nobody makes any reference to its cost, so we really can't say.

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And then you can add the cost of the Rebellion on Robert's part - which he would have only paid after his victory

What "cost"? Did we hear of him hiring any mercenaries or really doing anything to take on debt at that time? And who was lending to him back when he was a rebel?

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But the way things are set up it is not even unclear whether anything of that sort is illegal

Here I think you're not entirely off-base. Littlefinger has gotten way wealthier in a short amount of time than is possible without him skimming those increased revenues for himself, and people have some awareness of this without thinking that makes him disqualified for the position. I do think others are unaware of the scale of his skimming because not even Tyrion can make heads or tails of how complicated LF's books are, as the bulk of the money is not just being dumped into assets obviously connected to LF.

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Littlefinger may also have a finger in that business, but you should not make a vast fortune by collecting the salaries of mid-tier royal officials

I think that's the sort of "normal" corruption people expect, only with actually existing employees kicking back rather than fictional ones merely on the books.

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Littlefinger isn't as wealthy as he appears or implies he is - we don't know how rich he actually is - but because he should have very low coasts compared to any lord who actually has to maintain a castle/court and a garrison and do his other duties

How do you know he's not that wealthy? We know he's wealthy enough to buy off a number of the Lords Declarant and get Sansa betrothed to Harry the Heir even while posing as merely his bastard. His meager lands might not cost much, but they also produce less revenue than a more landed lord. The Tyrells are rich precisely because they have a lot of fertile land, and their feasting doesn't put a dent in that.

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Where did it say that?

Where does it say that Littlefinger emptied the full treasury Robert stole from Aerys II? We do know Littlefinger is brought in because he is a financial wizard who can perpetuate/stabilize Robert's wastefulness. Nobody ever said things got bad when Littlefinger took over the treasury.

A lot of people fail to remember that Petyr Baelish joined the Small Council in the second half of Robert's reign, not when they took over the Iron Throne. Petyr started to manage tariffs in Gulltown around 289 AC, which he did for a couple of years. Eventually Jon brought him to KL where he worked in the treasury for three years until he was finally made Master of Coin.

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You'll have to use your imagination because that's not actually in the text.

LOL, that was for people who are unable to imagine how Robert Baratheon emptied a full treasury and beggared the Crown. It is kind of stupid how people underestimate the amount of money you can spend if you want to. You can burn millions and even billions easily enough if you want to.

The thing for which there isn't any textual evidence in the books is that Littlefinger is the architect of Robert's wastefulness.

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He "may have"? We can imagine that he built a thousand, then burned them just so he could build them again as long as we're making stuff up! We don't know the scale of shipbuilding occurred, and nobody makes any reference to its cost, so we really can't say.

LOL again, we do know the Crown does have a rather large fleet in ACoK when Stannis and Joff's ships clash, and we know that the same royal fleet defeated the Ironborn back during the Greyjoy Rebellion ... and then we do know that the Targaryen royal fleet was destroyed in the night of Dany's birth, meaning Robert would have to build a lot of ships to replace the ones he couldn't take from the Targaryens because they no longer existed.

And we also do know that building (large) war ships is very costly, as is evidenced by Cersei having to choose between her dromonds and paying the regular interests owed the Iron Bank.

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What "cost"? Did we hear of him hiring any mercenaries or really doing anything to take on debt at that time? And who was lending to him back when he was a rebel?

War is costly, which we are told in FaB in relation to the First Dornish War and Maegor's wars - which also beggared the Iron Throne. Robert would not just only have to pay some of the men in his service, but also reward them for their loyalty, and do a lot of rebuilding in the Stormlands and the Crownlands, especially KL.

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Here I think you're not entirely off-base. Littlefinger has gotten way wealthier in a short amount of time than is possible without him skimming those increased revenues for himself, and people have some awareness of this without thinking that makes him disqualified for the position. I do think others are unaware of the scale of his skimming because not even Tyrion can make heads or tails of how complicated LF's books are, as the bulk of the money is not just being dumped into assets obviously connected to LF.

In light of the fact that we have no idea how wealthy Littlefinger actually is it is kind of joke to claim he has gotten 'way wealthier in a short amount of time than is possible without him skimming those increased revenues for himself'.

What we know about Littlefinger's wealth is that he has profitable assets - ships and brothels, basically - and that he has the wealth to dress fashionably and to buy up debts in the Vale. But there is no indication that there is anything weird about that wealth in the sense that a financial genius like him couldn't actually make that kind of profit without embezzling money. Littlefinger could have made all his wealth from some early gifts/rewards given to him by Lysa and Jon.

He makes real money for the Crown by investing in many enterprises, so it stands to reason he could also invest his own money in the same - or even more profitable - enterprises the Crown invested, without there ever being any need for really shady deals aside from the insider knowledge that you would naturally have as the guy running the treasury.

Littlefinger isn't a thief or swindler, but rather a man with a well-oiled power machine who keeps his ducks in a row - men like Brune, Kettleblack, etc. - because his profit is their profit. His system works because people pledging themselves to Littlefinger know his rise means that they will rise, too.

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

How do you know he's not that wealthy? We know he's wealthy enough to buy off a number of the Lords Declarant and get Sansa betrothed to Harry the Heir even while posing as merely his bastard. His meager lands might not cost much, but they also produce less revenue than a more landed lord. The Tyrells are rich precisely because they have a lot of fertile land, and their feasting doesn't put a dent in that.

You can be a great lord and still have huge debts - like King Robert - if you spend more money than you earn. It is that simple. The pressure Littlefinger puts on the Waynwoods is based on him buying up their debts ... but this doesn't mean his annual income has to be even remotely close to that of the Waynwoods - it is enough if he has to funds to buy up those debts. And then the Waynwoods will be very happy if he just forgives those debts.

You should also keep in mind that an old and noble family can pile up debts over the centuries. The Waynwoods and Corbrays could have had a string of incompetent wastrel lords which would then mean that their heirs have to pay back those debts. Lords would mostly get credit because the people offering loans would know they have the means to (eventually) pay them back. Which is kind of a guaranteed if you look at the longevity of Westerosi noble families.

Littlefinger's incomes would come mainly from actual enterprises and trade - not feudal nonsense based on taking rents and taxes from tenants and such - and we see how most wealth is generated by trade with the Redwynes, Hightowers, and, especially, the old Velaryons. The Sea Snake became the richest man in Westeros just because he brought fourteen ships full of luxury goods back from Qarth. The Velaryons rule a very small island, their wealth was always based on trade, meaning a smart business man like Littlefinger can also grow pretty rich this way. He just has to own ships to do it, he doesn't have to captain them himself.

Of course, lords controlling as fertile lands as the Tyrells do also can grow rich - but their wealth would be more due to the tax revenues they collect from all the Reach ... while lords like the Freys also show how real wealth can be made by collecting tariffs from merchants and traders using your bridge instead by means of only taxing your peasants.

The Lannisters are also only rich because of their gold, not because of the size or fertility of their lands.

[The Young Maester]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fundamental flaw of this idea is that Littlefinger wasn't Master of Coin nor even in KL for most of Robert's reign ... and that he was brought in to consolidate the finances of the Crown - which means things were bad long before Littlefinger took over the treasury.

Aerys II left a full treasury ... and the last debts the Crown seems to have had under his reign were the monies owed to the Iron Bank paid back by Tywin in the 260s.

Littlefinger does embezzle the Crown - but Robert Baratheon does beggar the Crown. He is a completely careless and irresponsible spender, and if you have trouble wrap your head around that because of numbers and stuff ... then just imagine Robert's reign from 283-289 AC as one big party, one expensive tourney, ball, feast, etc. following the next. Robert also had to rebuild the royal fleet from scratch, it seems, considering the Targaryen ships - and most of their Narrow Sea vassals - would have been destroyed in the night of Dany's birth. And we do know that ships are very costly, and Robert may have built scores or perhaps even hundreds. And then you can add the cost of the Rebellion on Robert's part - which he would have only paid after his victory - as well as his later war against the Ironborn.

But in the end Robert is just a guy who grew accustomed to spend big and continued to do so long after his treasury was emptied ... no matter the cost, pun intended. That is not that difficult to understand.

The way Littlefinger enriches himself seems to be rather subtle - insider trading, simony, and, one imagines, by taking a decent percentage of the increased income he makes for the Crown. But the way things are set up it is not even unclear whether anything of that sort is illegal. If you are useful to the folks in power you also get your rewards and cuts in such a setting.

Even back in Gulltown, chances are not that bad that Littlefinger grew wealthy simply by following his nice guy approach. He ingratiated himself with the wealthy traders and merchants of Gulltown, and then invested and reinvested the original capital he acquired, multiplying his assets. The man had neither castle nor court to maintain, he could essentially put all his cash into many different enterprises, both in KL, Gulltown, and abroad.

As for the 'the Crown pays non-existent officials' - that is actually a scheme developed used by Varys in his Rugen persona - something that must have been set up during the reign of the Mad King. Littlefinger may also have a finger in that business, but you should not make a vast fortune by collecting the salaries of mid-tier royal officials.

Littlefinger isn't as wealthy as he appears or implies he is - we don't know how rich he actually is - but because he should have very low coasts compared to any lord who actually has to maintain a castle/court and a garrison and do his other duties ... especially feast the king if he comes knocking. He could have just the income of an average (small) lord ... while having essentially none of the running costs such a lord has to deal with.

We dont know exactly when Baelish came to court. But it is fair to say he was made master of coin to fix the realms financial issue, or maybe to replace the previous master of coin.

Baelish was also given free reign to use the money. This probably was because of his success at bringing in money. Jon Arryn trusted him and let him do his thing.

Now a man like Baelish would fully exploit this. He has no moral or loyalty whatsoever. The guy is smart, if he plays his cards right he can embezzle allot of money whilst making it look like they are making money.

I did explain how all this blame can be directed to Robert. Baelish is given the money to bring in whatever Robert needs, and Baelish will certainly take advantage of this by finding a way to make sure the costs are super high so he can hide the amount he is actually pocketing.

I dont 100% know how he does it, but for sure the man has pocketed more than the regular thief would.

We know how ambitious the man is, and how he will take advantage of every situation possible. And as master of coin he no doubt realised how he can bugger Robert and all the high lords he so much dislikes.

Im not gonna say robert had nothing to do with the debt because he most likely had allot to do with it. But I will safely say that atleast half of the debt is littlefingers schemes.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

We dont know exactly when Baelish came to court.

We know it was years after he started in Gulltown around 289 AC, and that it took him three years in KL to rise to the position of Master of Coin. Conservatively this would imply Petyr Baelish became Master of Coin around 294-95 AC.

5 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

But it is fair to say he was made master of coin to fix the realms financial issue, or maybe to replace the previous master of coin.

He definitely would have replaced somebody, and chances are that Robert had a succession of Masters of Coin until Jon finally suggested Littlefinger in an attempt to install somebody who could do the job. Keep in mind that Robert usurped the throne and would have staffed his court predominantly with loyal friends and cronies like Jon himself, his wife's family, his brothers, etc. For Master of Coin quite a few great lords and knights and buddies of Robert's would have stood in a row - it could have been a job for one of Cersei's kin, for instance, even if Tywin or Kevan had no interest in taking it.

They must have been quite desperate to turn to a nobody like Littlefinger. He wouldn't have been Jon's first or second or even third choice.

5 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Baelish was also given free reign to use the money. This probably was because of his success at bringing in money. Jon Arryn trusted him and let him do his thing.

Oh, but we know that Littlefinger only manages the Crown's income. The spending is done by the Hand and the king. Littlefinger is only useful as long as he does what he is supposed - give the king the cash he wants. If that is lacking, he would quickly lose his job. And stealing from the king by making it look like he was wasting money he is not wasting would essentially be suicide - politically as well as literally.

What we can reasonably assume that Littlefinger would take a percentage of the Crown's overall incomes ... especially from those incomes the Crown has to thank him for. And this might either be perfectly legal or silently tolerated, because he is so good at his job.

But as I already laid own - Littlefinger's own wealth might simply go down to him being the treasurer controlling most of the financial infrastructure in the Seven Kingdom. He would not only know about good investments, he would also be able to know what kind of enterprises will be profitable long before other interested parties might have clues. Hence, he is in an ideal position to do insider trading.

By the time Littlefinger became Master of Coin he would already have been a decently wealthy man, so he could easily enough have become even more wealthy simply by exploiting the advantages that come with being Master of Coin - something any man serving in that capacity may have done.

5 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Now a man like Baelish would fully exploit this. He has no moral or loyalty whatsoever. The guy is smart, if he plays his cards right he can embezzle allot of money whilst making it look like they are making money.

The problem with the Crown's finances is that they are so much in debt that the king needs a lot of money to pay interest installments as well as do his usual thing. There might be shady deals and stuff, but in the end the king gets the money he needs. And the Iron Throne isn't exactly a bank, they wouldn't have vast amounts of sums available for investment.

5 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Im not gonna say robert had nothing to do with the debt because he most likely had allot to do with it. But I will safely say that atleast half of the debt is littlefingers schemes.

The king takes on loans, not his Master of Coin. If Littlefinger were the guy pushing for ever more loans he would have been quickly out of a job. And the idea that he could fool anyone, especially in relation to the loans taken from the Lannisters, is also pretty far-fetched. Tywin would want to know why his son-in-law needs so much money, and Littlefinger could never control the conversation taking place between Robert and the Lannisters if he was trying to swindle them both.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 12/2/2020 at 6:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

Where does it say that Littlefinger emptied the full treasury Robert stole from Aerys II?

When Tyrion becomes MoC he sees that LF doesn't believe "in letting gold sit about and grow dusty". Like George Bailey during the run on his bank, he has all the money elsewhere.

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We do know Littlefinger is brought in because he is a financial wizard who can perpetuate/stabilize Robert's wastefulness

Where does it say that?

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Nobody ever said things got bad when Littlefinger took over the treasury.

Actually, Tyrion does. He attributes both the tremendous growth in revenue as well as of debt to his tenure as MoC. We don't hear anything about debts preceding LF.

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Eventually Jon brought him to KL where he worked in the treasury for three years

It doesn't say precisely where he worked, although that would make sense.

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It is kind of stupid how people underestimate the amount of money you can spend if you want to. You can burn millions and even billions easily enough if you want to.

You can't go through that kind of money by eating and drinking, you need to make demands on vast quantities of labor. The standard way that occurs is through war, although public works projects (which Aerys was more interested in than Robert) could do so as well.

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The thing for which there isn't any textual evidence in the books is that Littlefinger is the architect of Robert's wastefulness.

Tyrion tells us about how LF has been using the treasury, taking out loans and only paying interest rather than the principal, and how it's impossible to make sense of his fishy accounts. That doesn't tell us that it was LF's idea to have the Hand's Tourney, but you are the one assuming it is such tourneys rather than LF's opposition to "letting gold sit about" that is the cause of the empty treasury. LF is the one who reports that treasury as empty, but he's also always able to come up with any coin needed, so like Tyland Lannister the throne can only access any funds via him.

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Robert would not just only have to pay some of the men in his service

Would he? Has he demanded longer service from them than his vassals normally owe their liege?

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but also reward them for their loyalty

There is Davos Seaworth, the one person we know got rewarded. That was with land, and since the Conningtons are the one Stormlands house we know lost land, it could have been from them.

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and do a lot of rebuilding in the Stormlands and the Crownlands

What rebuilding?

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In light of the fact that we have no idea how wealthy Littlefinger actually is it is kind of joke to claim he has gotten 'way wealthier in a short amount of time than is possible without him skimming those increased revenues for himself'.

A medieval official would only take a small stipend as any kind of official salary. Not enough to afford all those things, even if invested over a few years. Varys & Pycelle are two members of the S.C without lands, and neither of them is known to have much in the way of personal wealth.

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Littlefinger could have made all his wealth from some early gifts/rewards given to him by Lysa and Jon.

Gifts/rewards that appear nowhere in the text.

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He makes real money for the Crown by investing in many enterprises, so it stands to reason he could also invest his own money in the same - or even more profitable - enterprises the Crown invested, without there ever being any need for really shady deals aside from the insider knowledge that you would naturally have as the guy running the treasury.

He could use inside knowledge, but that would merely give him an edge rather than permitting him to multiply a small amount of initial wealth by a large factor. And since he's already lending enterprises funds from the Crown, they have less need for his additional personal funds and wouldn't need to give him as high of an interest rate (and if he's trying to charge low rates for crown funds conditional on high rates for personal funds, that will cut down on the increased crown revenues he's using as proof of his usefulness).

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Littlefinger isn't a thief or swindler

Heavens, no, not honorable Littlefinger! You can trust him! He would never betray his Hand or King!

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but rather a man with a well-oiled power machine who keeps his ducks in a row - men like Brune, Kettleblack, etc. - because his profit is their profit

Tyrion knew being Master of Coin was a trap. LF specifically recommended him for the position, having already planned on framing him for Joffrey's assassination. The "well-oiled power machine" was intended to function after LF himself departed. He's got Sansa, who's wanted by the throne for said assassination, he's not going back and instead is basing his power center on the Vale. All the chaos going on from his screwing with the treasury works just as well for him as the chaos caused by assassinating Joffrey.

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The pressure Littlefinger puts on the Waynwoods is based on him buying up their debts ... but this doesn't mean his annual income has to be even remotely close to that of the Waynwoods - it is enough if he has to funds to buy up those debts. And then the Waynwoods will be very happy if he just forgives those debts.

You have to be wealthy to be able to afford buying up someone else's debts only to write them off! Of course, if he was using crown funds for that, he wouldn't personally be depending on those debts getting paid back at all.

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You should also keep in mind that an old and noble family can pile up debts over the centuries.

That is a fair point I will grant.

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Which is kind of a guaranteed if you look at the longevity of Westerosi noble families.

Interest rates were high in the medieval era not simply because dynasties could be overthrown, but also because defaults were so common. The Glorious Revolution made the crown far more credible and able to take out loans with lower rates, even though the revolution itself overthrew a dynasty!

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Of course, lords controlling as fertile lands as the Tyrells do also can grow rich - but their wealth would be more due to the tax revenues they collect from all the Reach

Most wealth is due to agriculture in a pre-modern economy.

On 12/2/2020 at 6:41 PM, The Young Maester said:

But it is fair to say he was made master of coin to fix the realms financial issue, or maybe to replace the previous master of coin.

The text doesn't actually say any of that. One would think there was a Master of Coin between Chested & him, but we've never heard of any.

On 12/3/2020 at 12:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

He definitely would have replaced somebody, and chances are that Robert had a succession of Masters of Coin until Jon finally suggested Littlefinger in an attempt to install somebody who could do the job. Keep in mind that Robert usurped the throne and would have staffed his court predominantly with loyal friends and cronies like Jon himself, his wife's family, his brothers, etc.

We don't actually hear of Robert ever firing anyone on his Small Council. He even kept on Varys, and refused to accept Ned's resignation. The one Master of Coin that we know preceded LF was Quarlton Chested, whom Aerys named Hand and then burned.

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Oh, but we know that Littlefinger only manages the Crown's income. The spending is done by the Hand and the king.

No, unless by "manage" you mean "use however he decides best". When Tyrion became MoC he saw how LF was using the treasury for a complex web of schemes purportedly to increase revenue.

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And stealing from the king by making it look like he was wasting money he is not wasting would essentially be suicide - politically as well as literally.

Not even Tyrion can really see through what LF is doing after reading the account books. The rest of KL has no idea what LF is up to, which is how he has been able to get away with so much.

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By the time Littlefinger became Master of Coin he would already have been a decently wealthy man

How?

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The problem with the Crown's finances is that they are so much in debt that the king needs a lot of money to pay interest installments as well as do his usual thing

Tyrion dates that debt to LF's tenure.

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And the Iron Throne isn't exactly a bank, they wouldn't have vast amounts of sums available for investment.

LF's accounts certainly look like he's treating it as a bank.

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If Littlefinger were the guy pushing for ever more loans he would have been quickly out of a job

That doesn't sound like Robert's court. When Jon Arryn & Stannis were both saying Janos Slynt was corrupt and needed to be removed, Robert listened to LF and decided to keep him on rather than finding someone who wasn't.

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And the idea that he could fool anyone, especially in relation to the loans taken from the Lannisters, is also pretty far-fetched. Tywin would want to know why his son-in-law needs so much money, and Littlefinger could never control the conversation taking place between Robert and the Lannisters if he was trying to swindle them both.

Tywin isn't a venture capitalist who needs to know there's a plan to leverage that loan into more money. He lends money because it suits him politically to have the crown dependent on him, and he's confident the loans will be paid back because the crown revenues are high enough for that. Robert hasn't objected to LF's financial schemes because LF always comes up with whatever coin is needed, so there's never any problem. And Robert is no chiseler, he hasn't given any indication he's going to stiff Tywin, or anyone else.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Stannis and Renly would have caught Baelish if he was taking more than a small amount.  The treasury is not money that has to be collected.  It was already collected and stored.  Baelish would have limited access.  Somebody would have said something if he was walking out with bags of gold every week without authorization from Robert.  It's much easier to steal gold while it is in the process of being collected in the form of revenue.  Much harder to steal it if it has already been collected, counted, and recorded.  Robert spent it all. 

[The Young Maester]

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

He definitely would have replaced somebody, and chances are that Robert had a succession of Masters of Coin until Jon finally suggested Littlefinger in an attempt to install somebody who could do the job. Keep in mind that Robert usurped the throne and would have staffed his court predominantly with loyal friends and cronies like Jon himself, his wife's family, his brothers, etc. For Master of Coin quite a few great lords and knights and buddies of Robert's would have stood in a row - it could have been a job for one of Cersei's kin, for instance, even if Tywin or Kevan had no interest in taking it.

They must have been quite desperate to turn to a nobody like Littlefinger. He wouldn't have been Jon's first or second or even third choice.

The council has lots of nobodys for many years, Varys is even one of them. If Jon brought him to court most have been to see him as a potential candidate for the position. Maybe he wanted to witness littlefingers work with his own eyes.

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but we know that Littlefinger only manages the Crown's income. The spending is done by the Hand and the king. Littlefinger is only useful as long as he does what he is supposed - give the king the cash he wants. If that is lacking, he would quickly lose his job. 

Well we clearly know that littlefinger is allowed to invest the money and buy things with the money. So he is clearly given full powers of what to do with the money he receives. 

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

And stealing from the king by making it look like he was wasting money he is not wasting would essentially be suicide - politically as well as literally.

Well according to tyrion his books look fishy. And if he can mask his actions so well that even tyrion cant figure it out, than why should drunken robert or trustworthy jon be able to. As I said big lords have no interest in counting coppers, thats why they have stewards for.

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

But as I already laid own - Littlefinger's own wealth might simply go down to him being the treasurer controlling most of the financial infrastructure in the Seven Kingdom. He would not only know about good investments, he would also be able to know what kind of enterprises will be profitable long before other interested parties might have clues. Hence, he is in an ideal position to do insider trading.

By the time Littlefinger became Master of Coin he would already have been a decently wealthy man, so he could easily enough have become even more wealthy simply by exploiting the advantages that come with being Master of Coin - something any man serving in that capacity may have done.

He certainly could have done that. It isnt out of the realm of possibility he benefited from doing that. 

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

The problem with the Crown's finances is that they are so much in debt that the king needs a lot of money to pay interest installments as well as do his usual thing. There might be shady deals and stuff, but in the end the king gets the money he needs. And the Iron Throne isn't exactly a bank, they wouldn't have vast amounts of sums available for investment.

 

Obviously not a single coin was paid in installments. Medieval loans were of super high interests. And with the treasury being empty it also didnt help. 

Iron throne did lend money to the antler man, although it wouldnt make them a bank really.

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

The king takes on loans, not his Master of Coin. If Littlefinger were the guy pushing for ever more loans he would have been quickly out of a job.

Well according to this quote he did in fact take out loans without the hands or kings permission. They probably told him to do whatever is necessary in order to give the king his money.

"What treasury is that?" Littlefinger replied with a twist of his mouth. "Spare me the foolishness, Maester. You know as well as I that the treasury has been empty for years. I shall have to borrow the money. No doubt the Lannisters will be accommodating. We owe Lord Tywin some three million dragons at present, what matter another hundred thousand?"

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

And the idea that he could fool anyone, especially in relation to the loans taken from the Lannisters, is also pretty far-fetched.

He clearly did when started a war that involved the lannisters. No one even found out a thing. He also poisoned joffrey under their very noses. 

On 12/3/2020 at 2:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

Tywin would want to know why his son-in-law needs so much money, and Littlefinger could never control the conversation taking place between Robert and the Lannisters if he was trying to swindle them both.

Tywin wants influence and control over things. Giving the fat king the money he asks for wont be a problem for tywin. It gives him more influence over robert. And we all know tywin loves nothing more than having a king in the palm of his hand.

Robert was going to give him sweetrobin as a ward, and thats because robert is indebted to him. Robert didnt even think of giving him to ned the man that was raised by the boys father himself. 

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Stannis and Renly would have caught Baelish if he was taking more than a small amount.  The treasury is not money that has to be collected.  It was already collected and stored.  Baelish would have limited access.  Somebody would have said something if he was walking out with bags of gold every week without authorization from Robert.  It's much easier to steal gold while it is in the process of being collected in the form of revenue.  Much harder to steal it if it has already been collected, counted, and recorded.  Robert spent it all. 

Well if you go to post #8. You shall see why reading the thread beforehand is a good idea.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

IMHO I believe it was a series of things 

1 . The victors of War of the Usurper had to be paid off

2 The Lannisters who paid the Crown's debt to the Iron Bank had to be paid back

3 The Greyjoy rebellion

4 Petyr Baelish embezzlement of the Crown funds

5 Robert's tourneys

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

One could argue it was Jon the hand that indebted the Kingdom and Baelish only a stooge. Jon selected Baelish as a loyal agent. First training Baelish in his own lands. Then brought Baelish to Kings Landing to operate his schemes and promoting Baelish to MoC out of necessity to cover up the Hands dealings. Jon’s death leaves all the schemes and money in Baelish’s control. 
     Baelish could have been aware of Jon’s plans or discovered them later.  Disliking  the idea of being a fall guy or straw man or even what Jon was up to, had him killed. 

[Lord Varys]

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

The council has lots of nobodys for many years, Varys is even one of them. If Jon brought him to court most have been to see him as a potential candidate for the position. Maybe he wanted to witness littlefingers work with his own eyes.

Varys is a legacy of the Mad King, an established man who can do his job. Robert kept him because of that reputation, but the other positions he filled. He named a new Hand, a new Master of Laws, a new Master of Ships, a new Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and a new Master of Coin.

Jon became Hand, and Stannis, most likely, Master of Ships right then and there in 283 AC when Robert took the throne. But Renly was named Master of Laws years later, just as Littlefinger wasn't Master of Coin in 283 AC - meaning Robert would have picked other men for those jobs, and possibly quite a few of them before eventually turning to Renly and Littlefinger.

And if you look at his standard personnel policy then he either turns to family (Stannis, Renly, Lannisters) or old buddies (Jon, Ned) for important offices - making it very likely that the original Master(s) of Coin/Law were also old buddies of Robert's - and perhaps even some extended family on the Baratheon or Estermont side.

Jon may certainly have looked to Littlefinger as a candidate for Master of Coin when he first realized his financial genius - which he would have seen by the time he called him to court. But it would have still been difficult for Jon to install him in the office considering that Littlefinger was a nobody of very low birth. People like him only get offices if they have both patronage (which Littlefinger had) and no powerful rivals for the job. And Robert would easily be influenced by his wife, brothers, and other buddies he hangs out with.

I expect that Robert hired and fired a number of Masters of Coin because I don't think his first choice would have agreed with the king's terrible spending habits. Very few people qualified for that job would just stand there and watch while an full treasury is emptied, meaning Robert may have gone from a conservative guy to a yes-man to eventually being forced to turn to a Littlefinger-type guy who keep the sinking ship afloat.

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

Well we clearly know that littlefinger is allowed to invest the money and buy things with the money. So he is clearly given full powers of what to do with the money he receives.

With part of the money he can use for this - the king still gets the cash he wants, meaning there is money there to be spent. Littlefinger doesn't bury or hide most of the Crown's funds in longterm investments he cannot easily transfer into cash.

I mean, the impression we get is that all or nearly all of the Crown's cash goes directly into interest installments after all the running costs of court and royal family are paid for. There are no savings or reserves of any kind - that's why Cersei decides to postpone the installments due to Braavosi and use the cash generated this way to build those dromonds.

Granted, the running costs during/after the war would be much higher, just as the revenues would be much lower with the Riverlands in shambles, the North and the Iron Islands sedeced, the Vale and Dorne lying low for a good chunk of the war, the Reach originally supporting Renly, etc.

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

Well according to tyrion his books look fishy. And if he can mask his actions so well that even tyrion cant figure it out, than why should drunken robert or trustworthy jon be able to. As I said big lords have no interest in counting coppers, thats why they have stewards for.

I'd say the idea there is that Littlefinger's financial dealings are supposed to underline/reinforce the fact that he is a smart and very subtle plotter - not that he steals a lot of money from the Crown. It also hides, I think, that Littlefinger used the money he invested in the name of the Crown to cultivate a coterie of supporters and friends loyal to him - not to mention that this means is, in general, a strong life insurance policy because even if Littlefinger would be disgraced or imprisoned eventually, the guys in charge would still need him to get their money back.

And this is the reason why Tyrion dares not to touch Littlefinger.

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

Obviously not a single coin was paid in installments. Medieval loans were of super high interests. And with the treasury being empty it also didnt help. 

Well, we don't know how high the interest rates are, but the Braavosi got and did expect to get real money, it seems. They are not juggling around monies entrusted to the Iron Bank which the Iron Throne did in previous years. When Cersei stops paying the installments, there is trouble, just as the Iron Bank later calls in all the loans they offered to the Westerosi and they are, apparently, also forced to pay them real money.

We also see real money being moved around at the beginning of the Dance, etc. We have to imagine the Red Keep with an actual, physical treasury, filled with actual gold dragons ... so everybody would figure out that the treasury is empty simply by going there and taking a look at the empty chests.

What I can see Littlefinger doing is securing better loan conditions from the various debtors by making the Crown's many investments appear more profitable than they actually are. There may be some snowball system aspects to Littlefinger's financial policies, but he is just a guy who keeps Robert's sinking ship afloat, he didn't fuck things up.

And so far quite a few men took a look at the Crown's finances after Tyrion - Gyles Rosby, Harys Swyft, and Kevan Lannister. And the latter's judgment that they either secure new loans or he, Kevan, has to pay the Crown's with Lannister gold is pretty telling (because he cannot dare raise the taxes).

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

Iron throne did lend money to the antler man, although it wouldnt make them a bank really.

Yes, some money is lent, and there are good theories that the Antler Men were actually Littlefinger's people precisely because he loaned them money - they owe him, personally, because he agreed to those loans.

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

Well according to this quote he did in fact take out loans without the hands or kings permission. They probably told him to do whatever is necessary in order to give the king his money.

"What treasury is that?" Littlefinger replied with a twist of his mouth. "Spare me the foolishness, Maester. You know as well as I that the treasury has been empty for years. I shall have to borrow the money. No doubt the Lannisters will be accommodating. We owe Lord Tywin some three million dragons at present, what matter another hundred thousand?"

Oh, but that's something that's openly being discussed by the council. It is no secret. Robert wouldn't do the negotiations, of course, but he would have to sign up on that and approve such loans.

And it is quite clear that Littlefinger openly and correctly discusses the finances of the Crown here. He criticizes the misrule of the king and the very council he is a part of. If he had been the guy emptying the treasury - or the guy under whose watch the treasury had been emptied - then he couldn't speak as openly and condescendingly about the finances.

Talks like that make it clear that the Crown's money was spent in the open, with the council knowing/discussing the expensive matters ... it wasn't Robert going privately to Littlefinger for money, behind Jon's or the council's back, nor is the financial situation of the Crown a mystery with only the Master of Coin knowing that the Crown is pretty much broke.

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

He clearly did when started a war that involved the lannisters. No one even found out a thing. He also poisoned joffrey under their very noses. 

Littlefinger didn't conspire with the Lannisters to push them into a war with the Starks. If there were secret loans and stuff then he could never control whether Tywin and Cersei wouldn't talk with Robert about that

On 12/5/2020 at 5:48 AM, The Young Maester said:

Tywin wants influence and control over things. Giving the fat king the money he asks for wont be a problem for tywin. It gives him more influence over robert. And we all know tywin loves nothing more than having a king in the palm of his hand.

Of course, but those loans are openly discussed. Robert knows how much he owes to Tywin. And Tywin needs Robert to know what Robert owes him or else he cannot exert any power. A king who doesn't know he is in debt wouldn't respect or defer to one of his debtors, would he?

[FictionIsntReal]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:18 PM, Eliscat said:

One could argue it was Jon the hand that indebted the Kingdom and Baelish only a stooge. Jon selected Baelish as a loyal agent. First training Baelish in his own lands. Then brought Baelish to Kings Landing to operate his schemes and promoting Baelish to MoC out of necessity to cover up the Hands dealings. Jon’s death leaves all the schemes and money in Baelish’s control. 
     Baelish could have been aware of Jon’s plans or discovered them later.  Disliking  the idea of being a fall guy or straw man or even what Jon was up to, had him killed. 

Jon Arryn was trying to clean up some of the corruption on the part of LF cronies like Janos Slynt. And killing Jon Arryn doesn't fix any financial issues, the actual way LF avoids holding the bag is marrying Lysa and making Tyrion MoC.

On 12/6/2020 at 12:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Varys is a legacy of the Mad King, an established man who can do his job. Robert kept him because of that reputation, but the other positions he filled. He named a new Hand, a new Master of Laws, a new Master of Ships, a new Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and a new Master of Coin.

The last Hand was killed by Jaime, the last MoC was made Hand and then killed by Aerys, and the last LC of the KG was killed by Ned & his six companions at the ToJ. Robert didn't name as LC any of his own new appointees to the KG, but instead just raised up the most senior member in Barristan. We don't know what happened to the Masters of Laws or Ships.

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meaning Robert would have picked other men for those jobs, and possibly quite a few of them before eventually turning to Renly and Littlefinger

We have never heard of them. Interestingly, the accounts of how Littlefinger increased revenues compare him to an unnamed "predecessor", while also saying he increased revenues by a similar manner compared to that under Aerys... thus suggested that there was no missing MoC prior to LF we haven't heard of. It wouldn't make any sense, but I also think GRRM just didn't think out the gap in MoCs.

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And if you look at his standard personnel policy then he either turns to family (Stannis, Renly, Lannisters)

The first two were on the Small Council, but none of the latter were. He does talk about naming Jaime as Warden of the East though.

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But it would have still been difficult for Jon to install him in the office considering that Littlefinger was a nobody of very low birth

Robert is not some super-selective guy who cares that much about prestige. He's an inattentive administrator that lets LF have his way, rarely attends council meetings, doesn't require people to be knights in order to participate in tourneys, and wants to give up the throne so he can be a sellsword.

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With part of the money he can use for this - the king still gets the cash he wants, meaning there is money there to be spent. Littlefinger doesn't bury or hide most of the Crown's funds in longterm investments he cannot easily transfer into cash.

I think it really depends on how much cash he needs to have on hand. And he can always borrow when he's short on liquidity.

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I mean, the impression we get is that all or nearly all of the Crown's cash goes directly into interest installments after all the running costs of court and royal family are paid for. There are no savings or reserves of any kind

The impression Tryion gets from LF's accounts is that the cash goes into investments LF makes, purportedly on behalf of the crown.

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I'd say the idea there is that Littlefinger's financial dealings are supposed to underline/reinforce the fact that he is a smart and very subtle plotter - not that he steals a lot of money from the Crown.

LF is quite bold. He lies about losing the dagger to Tyrion right in front of Varys, he'd been bragging about taking the maidenheads of both Tully sisters, he enjoys cheekily telling Ned Stark not to trust him and even says "I confess" in response to Tyrion saying he knows who killed Jon Arryn, he framed the very faction he intended to work for of killing Jon Arryn and then arranged for their king to be assassinated, he's harboring a fugitive wanted in connection with said assassination and he kissed Sansa (unknowingly) in front of Lysa, thus requiring him to personally murder the very wife from whom his authority in the Vale flowed. This is a man who takes enormous risks.

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And this is the reason why Tyrion dares not to touch Littlefinger.

I say it's bad writing for Tyrion not to do anything with his knowledge that LF framed him and thus helped kick off the war between Stark & Lannister.

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There may be some snowball system aspects to Littlefinger's financial policies, but he is just a guy who keeps Robert's sinking ship afloat, he didn't fuck things up.

We do hear about the debts ballooning under LF, and not before.

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And it is quite clear that Littlefinger openly and correctly discusses the finances of the Crown here. He criticizes the misrule of the king and the very council he is a part of. If he had been the guy emptying the treasury - or the guy under whose watch the treasury had been emptied - then he couldn't speak as openly and condescendingly about the finances.

You are WAY too trusting of LF. He lies all the time and repeatedly screws over his patrons. He wants to make said patrons feel dependent on him while also obscuring what is actually going on.

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Talks like that make it clear that the Crown's money was spent in the open, with the council knowing/discussing the expensive matters ... it wasn't Robert going privately to Littlefinger for money, behind Jon's or the council's back, nor is the financial situation of the Crown a mystery with only the Master of Coin knowing that the Crown is pretty much broke.

Robert would rarely attend such meetings, so it was probably Jon Arryn who was kept up to date, but if Arryn had any problem with LF (as we know was the case with his crony Slynt), Robert wouldn't be likely to back Arryn up. And I doubt even Jon Arryn was actually examining LF's accounts to see what exactly was happening with the money.

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Littlefinger didn't conspire with the Lannisters to push them into a war with the Starks. If there were secret loans and stuff then he could never control whether Tywin and Cersei wouldn't talk with Robert about that

LF didn't just borrow from Tywin, and Robert doesn't care about the details of finances as long as LF comes up with whatever coin is needed day-to-day.

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Of course, but those loans are openly discussed. Robert knows how much he owes to Tywin. And Tywin needs Robert to know what Robert owes him or else he cannot exert any power. A king who doesn't know he is in debt wouldn't respect or defer to one of his debtors, would he?

I don't think Robert is attentive to the actual amount, just knowing he owes a lot of money is sufficient. He would not be able to catch LF engaging in chicanery because that would require a lot more effort than he's willing to exert, and he doesn't actually care enough about financial corruption to punish or seriously investigate it.

[The Young Maester]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Varys is a legacy of the Mad King, an established man who can do his job. Robert kept him because of that reputation, but the other positions he filled. He named a new Hand, a new Master of Laws, a new Master of Ships, a new Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and a new Master of Coin.

Yeah but I’m referring to when the mad king brought him to court. He was a foreign nobody, and probably disliked by everyone at court. 

 

On 12/6/2020 at 2:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Jon became Hand, and Stannis, most likely, Master of Ships right then and there in 283 AC when Robert took the throne. But Renly was named Master of Laws years later, just as Littlefinger wasn't Master of Coin in 283 AC - meaning Robert would have picked other men for those jobs, and possibly quite a few of them before eventually turning to Renly and Littlefinger.

And if you look at his standard personnel policy then he either turns to family (Stannis, Renly, Lannisters) or old buddies (Jon, Ned) for important offices - making it very likely that the original Master(s) of Coin/Law were also old buddies of Robert's - and perhaps even some extended family on the Baratheon or Estermont side.

Jon may certainly have looked to Littlefinger as a candidate for Master of Coin when he first realized his financial genius - which he would have seen by the time he called him to court. But it would have still been difficult for Jon to install him in the office considering that Littlefinger was a nobody of very low birth. People like him only get offices if they have both patronage (which Littlefinger had) and no powerful rivals for the job. And Robert would easily be influenced by his wife, brothers, and other buddies he hangs out with.

I expect that Robert hired and fired a number of Masters of Coin because I don't think his first choice would have agreed with the king's terrible spending habits. Very few people qualified for that job would just stand there and watch while an full treasury is emptied, meaning Robert may have gone from a conservative guy to a yes-man to eventually being forced to turn to a Littlefinger-type guy who keep the sinking ship afloat.

Early on his reign you can safely say that Robert filled the court with lackwits and yes man. As king he got used to everyone saying yes to him after all. But once he settled in, I would say Jon Arryn handled small council appointments, he just asked Robert to fully formalise it and put his stamp to it.

Littlefingers lowbirth might have been an issue. However he still was a nobleman, and master of coin was a position that I doubt many were looking forward to. Let’s not forget the old king named a septon to the position of hand of the king, and he was the son of a smith.

On 12/6/2020 at 2:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but that's something that's openly being discussed by the council. It is no secret. Robert wouldn't do the negotiations, of course, but he would have to sign up on that and approve such loans.

And it is quite clear that Littlefinger openly and correctly discusses the finances of the Crown here. He criticizes the misrule of the king and the very council he is a part of. If he had been the guy emptying the treasury - or the guy under whose watch the treasury had been emptied - then he couldn't speak as openly and condescendingly about the finances.

Talks like that make it clear that the Crown's money was spent in the open, with the council knowing/discussing the expensive matters ... it wasn't Robert going privately to Littlefinger for money, behind Jon's or the council's back, nor is the financial situation of the Crown a mystery with only the Master of Coin knowing that the Crown is pretty much broke.

I think Robert would approve any loan that leads to his needs met. No questions just simply puts a pen to paper and is done with it.

He certainly is a critic, most likely because Robert does waste money away. But let’s not forget this is littlefinger we are talking about, openly disliking how the money is spent is naturally part of his job. No doubt he is disgusted with the amount Robert spends. But Robert being in debt might serve littlefingers plans. We can safely assume that he had the goal of being protector of the vale since before he murdered Jon Arryn. He just needed Lysa to be on board. Keeping the vale out of war might have been what he needed when he rose to power. Be the man that controls the grain, the coin, and the armies left in Westeros. And leaving the crown under so much debt might be what he needs to serve his ambitious plan.

On 12/6/2020 at 2:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger didn't conspire with the Lannisters to push them into a war with the Starks. If there were secret loans and stuff then he could never control whether Tywin and Cersei wouldn't talk with Robert about that

No but he set matches on the fire that was close to brewing. And cat capturing Tyrion is what made Tywin act.

On 12/6/2020 at 2:58 AM, Lord Varys said:

Of course, but those loans are openly discussed. Robert knows how much he owes to Tywin. And Tywin needs Robert to know what Robert owes him or else he cannot exert any power. A king who doesn't know he is in debt wouldn't respect or defer to one of his debtors, would he?

Oh Robert definitely know he owes Tywin money. But at the same time he seems happy with borrowing more money. The guy knows he will die soon, and he will leave the mess he left behind in the hands of his heir and his wretched wife.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 12/9/2020 at 1:36 PM, The Young Maester said:

The guy knows he will die soon, and he will leave the mess he left behind in the hands of his heir and his wretched wife.

It should be noted that while he's not terribly attentive to his legacy, it is his fear of his successors doing a terrible job of managing the kingdom that keeps him from abandoning the throne.