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Mario Seddy

Why didn't Robert call a great Council ?

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After the Sack of King's Landing why didn't Robert call a great Council and legitimate his rule? He had 5 of the 7 Kingdoms with him ? 

Didn't anyone else like Tywin, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully think of this since they had a political mindset? 

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On 12/1/2020 at 1:45 AM, Mario Seddy said:

After the Sack of King's Landing why didn't Robert call a great Council and legitimate his rule?

The Great Councils are called to avoid bloodshed when the succession isn't clear. That was not possible in Robert's case, as the war had already been fought.

On 12/1/2020 at 1:45 AM, Mario Seddy said:

 He had 5 of the 7 Kingdoms with him ?

Remember that in a Great Council it's not the kingdoms (or the Great Lords) that vote. Each of the individual lords have a say.

Also, it is suggested that the votes in a Great Council are secret. Therefore you would risk that many of the lords from the Riverlands, the Vale or the Stormlands would vote for the Targaryen restoration. If you factor in that the Reach and Dorne will be heavily Pro-Targ, you find yourself in a difficult situation where the throne would be far from secure.

Even if you win, you would have given the Targaryen faction a plataform to meet, make their case and denounce Robert as a kinslayer and usurper. And the results will prove that the realm is split, and that your rights to the throne are far from being unanimously accepted. I think that summoning the council would have been a big political misstep.

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On 12/3/2020 at 9:27 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Because GRRM didn't want it in his story 

If I'm not mistaken Great council only appears in Clash of Kings as an institution.

Also Great Council would work better before the end of the war, rather when the war was basically won . It would not be maybe in the best interest of the winners - who would maybe need to give some concessions to gathered lords.

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There is also the non-trivial risk that a Great Council might result in rancor as people ask why the Seven Kingdoms are still a thing without the Targaryens and dragons around and then you'd have a demand for reparations from the crown for the crimes committed by Aerys and all sorts of other things going on.

There was also no need: Robert had the Westerlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale and the Stormlands behind him, the Iron Islands sort of allied (if fairly nominally and, as soon to be seen, temporarily) to them, the Reach had surrendered and Dorne agreed to a negotiated settlement. What was there for a Grand Council to discuss?

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

There is also the non-trivial risk that a Great Council might result in rancor as people ask why the Seven Kingdoms are still a thing without the Targaryens and dragons around and then you'd have a demand for reparations from the crown for the crimes committed by Aerys and all sorts of other things going on.

There was also no need: Robert had the Westerlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale and the Stormlands behind him, the Iron Islands sort of allied (if fairly nominally and, as soon to be seen, temporarily) to them, the Reach had surrendered and Dorne agreed to a negotiated settlement. What was there for a Grand Council to discuss?

Since literally nobody wants to tear the Seven Kingdoms apart that is not all that likely.

A Great Council could have settled the succession after the Sack ... but for that to happen Robert should not have been proclaimed king around the time of the Trident. Just because the rebels won the war doesn't mean they had to make Robert king.

The way things were there was no need for this since the rebels had no interest to include (former) Targaryen loyalists in the new regime ... unlike, say, Jaehaerys I including supporters of Maegor into his new government.

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

unlike, say, Jaehaerys I including supporters of Maegor into his new government.

Old Targaryen loyalists bowed to Robert as well. They didn't vanish into the air.

 

Westeros doesn't have a credible system of laws, conventions or governance. Great Councils are not parliaments. They are only convened when the king finds them convenient. 

 

Edited by saltedmalted

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3 hours ago, saltedmalted said:

Old Targaryen loyalists bowed to Robert as well. They didn't vanish into the air.

 

Westeros doesn't have a credible system of laws, conventions or governance. Great Councils are not parliaments. They are ony convened when the king finds them convenient. 

 

Great Councils exist for the very purpose of avoiding wars of succesion, once the rebels had won their war, there was no need for them to call it. 

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The better questions to ask are:

  1. why did Rhaegar wait so long to call a Great Council so as to properly deal with Aerys?
  2. why didn't Stannis, Renly or Robb call a Great Council?

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

why didn't Stannis, Renly or Robb call a Great Council?

You could call a Great Council but that means nothing if people refuse to recognise it.

Renly and Stannis wouldn't accept any council's decision. Renly because he had all the power, Stannis because he is Stannis.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/18/2021 at 5:19 PM, BlackLightning said:
  1. why did Rhaegar wait so long to call a Great Council so as to properly deal with Aerys?

Rhaegar was only 21 when the tourney at Harrenhall was called. That actually seems like a relatively young age by which to come to terms with the fact your father is a monster, realise that he isn't going to change and the only solution is to overthrow him, come to terms with the fact its your responsibility to overthrow him, come to terms with the fact this may end up in his death, gain the confidence to do all this, work out logistically how you are going to do this including carrying out all the necessary preparations and forging of alliances.

Edited by Lady_Qohor

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Calling a Great Council at that moment would cause only harm to Robert's claim. Targaryen loyalists would easily rally against him and this could include Stormlanders, Riverlanders and Vale lords. The brutal deaths of Elia and her children would be brought to the council and would work against him. So using only his right of conquest was a good move.

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21 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Rhaegar was only 21 when the tourney at Harrenhall was called. That actually seems like a relatively young age by which to come to terms with the fact your father is a monster, realise that he isn't going to change and the only solution is to overthrow him, come to terms with the fact its your responsibility to overthrow him, come to terms with the fact this may end up in his death, gain the confidence to do all this, work out logistically how you are going to do this including carrying out all the necessary preparations and forging of alliances.

Why did I feel like he was so much older?

A 21 year old Rhaegar running off with a 15 year old Lyanna makes a lot more sense (and is easier to digest) than a 32 year old Rhaegar running off with a 15 year old Lyanna...

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5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Why did I feel like he was so much older?

A 21 year old Rhaegar running off with a 15 year old Lyanna makes a lot more sense (and is easier to digest) than a 32 year old Rhaegar running off with a 15 year old Lyanna...

Yeah, its the classic ASOIAF trope of characters acting and being written as way older than they actually are. To be fair Rhaegar was 21 when the tourney was called in 280AC, he was 22 when the tourney happened in 281AC, and 22 or 23 when he ran off with Lyanna in 282AC and around 23 or 24 when he dies at the Trident in 283AC. Either way  he's still at adult at Harrenhall and Lyanna could be as young as 14 so its still icky.

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2 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

Yeah, its the classic ASOIAF trope of characters acting and being written as way older than they actually are. To be fair Rhaegar was 21 when the tourney was called in 280AC, he was 22 when the tourney happened in 281AC, and 22 or 23 when he ran off with Lyanna in 282AC and around 23 or 24 when he dies at the Trident in 283AC. Either way  he's still at adult at Harrenhall and Lyanna could be as young as 14 so its still icky.

I don't know if it's a trope rather than just people growing up more and faster in that world.

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On 3/22/2021 at 10:48 PM, Lady_Qohor said:

Yeah, its the classic ASOIAF trope of characters acting and being written as way older than they actually are.

Octavian formed the second triumvirate at 20.  Lafayette was 19 when he joined the Continental Army. Alexander the Great began his conquest of Asia at 18. Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein at 18. Joan of Arc broke the siege of Orleans at 17. Mozart wrote his first symphony at 8.

History is full of very young nobles leading armies, ruling lands and conspiring against their families.

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Robert and his buddies failed to follow the example of Corlys Velaryon after the death of Aegon II and include the old enemies in the new regime. A Great Council not addressing the question who should be king but restoring peace and establishing the new government - sort of like the lords did during the Regency of Aegon III after the Secret Siege - could have done much and more to ensure that the remaining Targaryen loyalists would not plot against Robert later on.

It could also have punished the murderers of Aerys II and Rhaegar's family as wel as prevent the Greyjoy Rebellion further down the road because the Ironborn could have been included in the new government in some fashion - say, a son or brother of Balon's becomes Master of Ships or something like that.

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