Jump to content

Skinchanger and Dragon


TedBear

Recommended Posts

Let's ask the question that corrodes everyone's mind, no one can be sure of the answer, but why do you agree or disagree that it is possible? 

As far as I know, this is the only thing GRRM commented on the subject.

Quote

What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider?

There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this. Keep reading

Personally I believe that it is not possible, a skinchanger can be influenced by an animal and I believe that the influence of a dragon is too strong for someone to achieve, a skinchanger like Bran could hold on for a few seconds, but the dragon's influence will always prevail. We also have the history of Varamyr with fire magic of Melisandre, and saying that the fire was inside him, I believe that something like that would happen to anyone who tried to invade a dragon's mind. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's at least four possible explanations why it wouldn't work for most skinchangers.

- Dragons are really smart, and we've seen that the smarter the animal, the harder it is to control them.

- Dragons are reptiles, in fantasy reptile-people are seen as having alien mindsets, maybe the mindset of a dragon is to different from what a skinchanger is used to, and we've seen no reptile skinchangers, tho it's rumored that Crangomen skinchange into lionlizards.

- Dragons are uncommon, skinchangers are uncommon, maybe a skin changer was never close enough to a dragon to try, tho if I was a skinchanger I would make it my top priority to be close to a dragon, specially when Rhaenyra promised a lordship to nayone who could tame a dragon.

- Dragons are controlled by a different type of magic, fire magic and warging don't mix.

 

I think it's a combination of #1 and #3, dragons are rare, skinchangers are rare, and you need an extra rare extra powerful skinchanger to control a dragon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure about skinchanging a dragon in the sense that we know it.  Melisandre and Dany have both been transformed by what Melisndre calls holy fire.

In Dany's wake the dragon dream she undergoes a spiritual transformation:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

When Mel says that fire is the cleanest form of death; I think she is referring to the spiritual transformation.  Something that makes Dany a true dragon to quote Moqorro.

I think this is the nature of the dragon bond; that the soul is transformed by holy fire.  I'm not sure of it's significance, but Drogon does seem to know when Dany needs to be saved.  I'm not sure that she will skinchange him per se; but having a fiery soul might be the difference between Orell and Dany.

Dany also dreams that she has become the dragon which is essentially how warging begins with the Starks and their direwolves.  To begin it is the wolves who initiate the bond.  The singing dragon seems to have done the same.

We know from Melisandre and Mirri Maz Duur that singing is used in spellcasting.  The dragon is likely singing the song of fire.

The Targaryens also worship dragon gods and I've wondered if this is a form of ancestor worship and whether Targ souls can migrate to stone eggs or living dragons after death.  If waking the dragon also means waking the soul within the egg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TedBear said:

Keep reading

I love how George says keep reading. People keep asking him questions and theories but he just gives them half an answer and tells them to read the books.

Supposedly Brandon would fly, I don’t know that what means. It probably means he will have eyes everywhere.

But Brandon isn’t just a skinchanger. He is a greenseer. They say only one in a thousand is born a skinchanger and only one skinchanger in a thousand is born a greenseer.

Supposedly green seers had great power. They could even flood the neck with water. Imagine what they would do if they attempted to bond a dragon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always thought that the fire being used to keep skinchangers out meant that you couldn't skinchange a dragon, or that you need to be a person animated by fire to do so at the very least. We also hear about how dragons are smarter than people and wonder if there were skin changing involved if it wouldn't be the inverse. Where the dragon not the human is in charge. :dunno:

4 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Supposedly Brandon would fly, I don’t know that what means. It probably means he will have eyes everywhere.

I thought this meant he could see through the comet. People in world note the comet overhead in the scenes linked with all the visions he has while in a coma. Then there is the Burning Bran(d) stuff. I think he controls, or is the comet and that is metaphorically linked to a flaming sword and a dragon but not literally. So he is flying, just not in the way most seem to think. Just what I noticed, and I guess it could be coincidence but... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Azarial said:

I thought this meant he could see through the comet. People in world note the comet overhead in the scenes linked with all the visions he has while in a coma. Then there is the Burning Bran(d) stuff. I think he controls, or is the comet and that is metaphorically linked to a flaming sword and a dragon but not literally. So he is flying, just not in the way most seem to think. Just what I noticed, and I guess it could be coincidence but...

The “Fly” certainly could mean many different things.

Or might just be that Brandon will mount a dragon and be a bad ass greenseer that shoots flames to his enemies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

The “Fly” certainly could mean many different things.

Or might just be that Brandon will mount a dragon and be a bad ass greenseer that shoots flames to his enemies.

Bran starts learning how to fly in his coma dream.  He is so high he can see across Westeros and Essos.  He can zoom in and see individuals.  The 3EC is taking him on this flight.  He is flying as high as the moon symbolically.  His next flying lessons involve ravens and crows and eventually hawks and eagles.  But to fly as high as the moon, to become a sky god, he needs to master his gifts as a greenseer. 

This is a psychic experience involving the soul.  Flying as high as the moon, means his soul is flying high above.  Eventually, he will not need to skinchange to reach such heights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, TedBear said:

Let's ask the question that corrodes everyone's mind, no one can be sure of the answer, but why do you agree or disagree that it is possible? 

As far as I know, this is the only thing GRRM commented on the subject.

Personally I believe that it is not possible, a skinchanger can be influenced by an animal and I believe that the influence of a dragon is too strong for someone to achieve, a skinchanger like Bran could hold on for a few seconds, but the dragon's influence will always prevail. We also have the history of Varamyr with fire magic of Melisandre, and saying that the fire was inside him, I believe that something like that would happen to anyone who tried to invade a dragon's mind. 

George Martin has already said that bonding with a dragon was meant to be risky.  He intended for the rider to risk death in order to develop this special relationship with a dragon.  Skinchanging a dragon is a cheat. I do not believe George would allow this.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It won't work because the skinchanger won't be able to stay alive within the fire. What happened to Varamyr within the eagle when Melisandre microwaved it exists to demonstrate this point. The fire will force the skinchanger out.

A person will be able to die and their soul/blood become fire and they will be able to second life a dragon, it's what Targs did and how the bond is developed, and what Euron's dragonbinder horn does. One can not set their soul on fire and go back to being human, one has to die to do it. The process of setting one's soul alight however requires the sacrifice of one's own blood, typically a child. It is why Euron needs a child by Dany, to sacrifice it so that he may second life a dragon.

The dragon reflects the blood and characteristics of the person that second lifed it and the blood sacrifice. It happened accidentally with Drogo and Rhaego, and now their souls both exist within Drogon. When Dany dies she will too enter Drogon and reunite with those two, they are the three heads of the dragon. This dragon will take on Dany's characteristics, it will become massive and its fire burn hotter than any dragon ever, and this dragon will defeat the Others and end the long night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It won't work because the skinchanger won't be able to stay alive within the fire. What happened to Varamyr within the eagle when Melisandre microwaved it exists to demonstrate this point. The fire will force the skinchanger out.

I don't know if this is true tho. The eagle died, so Varamyr was forced out because he can't control corpses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It won't work because the skinchanger won't be able to stay alive within the fire. What happened to Varamyr within the eagle when Melisandre microwaved it exists to demonstrate this point. The fire will force the skinchanger out.

I agree.  Varamyr could not withstand the pain of the fire and he went a little mad, losing control of his other animals.  

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

A person will be able to die and their soul/blood become fire and they will be able to second life a dragon, it's what Targs did and how the bond is developed,

Yes, I would add the caveat that they must be true dragons.  By that I mean they must undergo the spiritual transformation that Dany undergoes during the waking the dragon dream.  She becomes the dragon in her dream.

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The process of setting one's soul alight however requires the sacrifice of one's own blood, typically a child.

This does seem to be the case, Rhaegal's soul gives life to one of the eggs.  He is born dead as though he had never lived with the physical characteristics of an infant dragon.  Although I think Rhaegal's soul went into the green egg, symbolic of the Dothraki Sea where he was conceived.

The cream and gold egg fits Viserys.  The crowing of Viserys with molten gold pouring down his throat matches Viserion's fire threaded with gold.  Not to mention that Viserion is a combination of the names Viserys and Victarion.   I'm not sure what Moqorro has done to Victarion but the flesh of his hand cracks and smokes like lava when Moqorro is through with him. He has been made ready to claim Dragonbinder.  Drogon is out of Victarion's reach so if he uses the horn it will bind him to either Rhaego or Viserion.  My bet is on Viserion.

I don't think the black egg contains Drogo's soul.  Dany saw his soul rise up to the stars from his funeral pyre.  Who could it be? :D

I'll go back to Alfie Allen's statement when he asked GRRM about Jon's parentage and was told it was Vader-ish.  He doesn't mention Dany although she has also had a Vader-ish moment.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 We don't know where Mopatis acquired these eggs but the black egg could be Rhaegar's egg.  Black stallion and black armor symbolic of the stone egg and black dragon.  His eyes glow red which could mean that Rhaegar was also a true dragon?

Does Rhaegar's soul reside in Drogon?  This passage is one of the oddest tidbits:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

What the heck?  She dreams she is Rhaegar but she is mounted on a dragon revisiting the place where Rhaegar died but in some future event.  The other nightmare where Rhaegar died  wasn't how it was meant to be but he has only now awakened.  Who is this dragon who is exultant?

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It is why Euron needs a child by Dany, to sacrifice it so that he may second life a dragon.

Yes he has strapped his pregnant salt wife to bow of his ship, minus her tongue, alongside his brother, a holy man.  Holy blood is also needed and this is the part Mirri Maz Duur plays in Dany's spellcasting.  MMD was a god's wife.

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

When Dany dies she will too enter Drogon and reunite with those two,

I'm not sure about this.  I think she may well see Drogo again in some vision when  she returns to Vaes Dothrak and passes beneath the shadow of the Mother of Mountains.    

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest I have been impressed and amazed at some of the things that happen in this tale.  I think @LynnS said that spells are sung which is interesting given our working overall title.  I thought and still think Bloodraven believes Bran will fly as he inhabits birds, hence the warning about staying in the clouds too long.  Bloodraven doesn't know how powerful the Last Greenseer really is.  

While I can appreciate that Dany embodies fire and Bran embodies Ice, it may take someone in between to command a dragon.  Without the ability to skinchange, said person would have to have some sort of bond with well Targaryans if not dragons.  Dragons don't suffer fools.   They just don't allow any one who wants a joy ride to hop on.  This bonding is some deeper level of knowing and trusting between humanish and animalish.  There is a sharing of thoughts and motives and dreams.   In at least Drogon and Ghost's cases, they are close enough to their bond humans to guide and protect them even from far away.   This is a pretty big deal.  

Bran's got dead guys and all the cool creepy spooky bizarre powers.   Dany's got nukes with wings and a revolutionary heart.  The balance they are able to achieve as the title of the series suggests, is up for grabs.  Maybe one or both of them will conquer their astounding powers and find a way to fix the world.  Or plain old Jon, with some of maybe both extremes of power, will be the guy to do it without either of them.  

While I think Bran probably could skinchange a dragon, maybe all the dragons, I don't think he will.  In kind, I don't think Dany's nature will cause spontaneous combustion in kittens if she becomes a skinchanger.  Looks like we need a Goldilocks type character to command a dragon and remain a skin changer.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/3/2020 at 12:57 AM, CamiloRP said:

I don't know if this is true tho. The eagle died, so Varamyr was forced out because he can't control corpses.

No the chapter concentrates on the fire and pain.

Quote

His last death had been by fire. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer on the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow … but the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain …

Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. He died his first death when he was only six, as his father's axe crashed through his skull. Even that had not been so agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle's eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he'd gone mad. Even the memory was enough to make him shudder.

It'll happen, a skinchanger will attempt to skinchange a dragon, probably Bran but maybe another, and this is what will happen to them, that's why these passages exist.

Consider the particular imagery and words, trying to fly while on fire, crackling of his wings, the burning of his heart, the fire inside of him, his spirit forced out. Also the "madness", like how Targs are a little mad. It is all very purposely done. Look how it compares to what happens to Rhaego, Drogo and Dany in the Wake the Dragon dream. What happens to Cragorn (the blower of Euron's horn).

Quote

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

Quote

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

Quote

 

It was a terrible sound, a wail of pain and fury that seemed to burn the ears. Aeron Damphair covered his, and prayed for the Drowned God to raise a mighty wave and smash the horn to silence, yet still the shriek went on and on. It is the horn of hell, he wanted to scream, though no man would have heard him. The cheeks of the tattooed man were so puffed out they looked about to burst, and the muscles in his chest twitched in a way that it made it seem as if the bird were about to rip free of his flesh and take wing. And now the glyphs were burning brightly, every line and letter shimmering with white fire. On and on and on the sound went, echoing amongst the howling hills behind them and across the waters of Nagga's Cradle to ring against the mountains of Great Wyk, on and on and on until it filled the whole wet world.

. . .

"The man who blew my dragon horn. When the maester cut him open, his lungs were charred as black as soot.". . 

. . .

"The sound it made … it burned, somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot, then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one."

"And the man who blew the horn, what of him?"

"He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too." The captain thumped his chest. "The hawk, just here. Every feather dripping blood. I heard the man was all burned up inside, but that might just have been some tale."

 

A dragon can not be skinchanged because to do it a person has to make their soul and blood fire, and a human body can not survive this. It must be a second life, their human life must end, they have to set their soul on fire and their soul must then enter a dragon (or egg). It happened to Rhaego and Drogo by accident through MMD's blood magic, and almost to Dany too but she lived. Had she died she would have woken up inside of the dragon too, she was 99% of the way there.

And using his horn Euron intends to do it too, and he's going to succeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No the chapter concentrates on the fire and pain.

Sure, because it was a painful experience, but the most likely reason that he got 'kicked out' is the fact that the eagle was dead.

 

Quote

It'll happen, a skinchanger will attempt to skinchange a dragon, probably Bran but maybe another, and this is what will happen to them, that's why these passages exist.

Or to show what happens when you try to skinchange through the Wall. Alyssane's dragon didn't want to cross it, some magic barrier might be at play.

 

Quote

A dragon can not be skinchanged because to do it a person has to make their soul and blood fire, and a human body can not survive this. It must be a second life, their human life must end, they have to set their soul on fire and their soul must then enter a dragon (or egg). It happened to Rhaego and Drogo by accident through MMD's blood magic, and almost to Dany too but she lived. Had she died she would have woken up inside of the dragon too, she was 99% of the way there.

This we don't know. Someone skinchanging a dragon is still a possibility, and there's an argument to be made for dragon riding and skinchanging being similar powers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/1/2020 at 8:24 PM, Prince Rhaego Targaryen said:

George Martin has already said that bonding with a dragon was meant to be risky.  He intended for the rider to risk death in order to develop this special relationship with a dragon.  Skinchanging a dragon is a cheat. I do not believe George would allow this.  

Agree

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know that the Starks will die and live as direwolves.  Not Sansa but almost certainly Arya, Rickon, and Jon.  Bran will outlive them all.  Any more "second lives" will be too much for a good plot.  Bran will skinchange humans and wolves but I don't think he will be able to do that to a dragon.  His brain would fry. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Sure, because it was a painful experience, but the most likely reason that he got 'kicked out' is the fact that the eagle was dead.

Or to show what happens when you try to skinchange through the Wall. Alyssane's dragon didn't want to cross it, some magic barrier might be at play.

The prologues and epilogues allow GRRM free rein from the set character structure to provide wider exposition as he sees fit. He used it to show what happens when a skinchanger is inside a flying being that burns from within. Should you see no design in that then so be it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

The prologues and epilogues allow GRRM free rein from the set character structure to provide wider exposition as he sees fit. He used it to show what happens when a skinchanger is inside a flying being that burns from within. Should you see no design in that then so be it.

The most important things from that prologue are, IMHO, learning about the aberrations of skinchanging, the rules, how the power works and how it doesn't, what different animals do to the skinchanger and most importantly: disembodied consciousness and skinchanging into a human.

Varamyr skinchanged into an eagle, the bird died and he stopped skinchanging it, he suffered more because being burnt alive is more painful than simply being stabbed. It could definitely also be a hidden message on skinchanging dragons, George loves to do those, but to act like it's the only possibility is narrow minded, and since there's no mention of dragons in that whole chapter, I think it's not the strongest possibility. 

Also, even if it was a warning about skinchanging dragons, Bran is not Varamyr. Varamyr couldn't skinchange into a human, even after a lifetime of training and being considered the most powerful skinchanger around. Bran skinchaged into Hodor (and likely even Meera) without training and without trying. Varamyr not being able to do something doesn't mean Bran won't be able. And skinchanging a dead bird is not the same as skinchanging a dragon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...