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TyrionsFlagon

Most Consequential Decision

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9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Aerys II survived Duskendale. If he had died and Rhaegar I would have married Cersei any rebellion against Iron Throne would have failed. 

Possibly, possibly.  But Rhaegar had his glaring weaknesses.  Such as a lack of judgment.  He is in truth an introvert.  Rhaegar would be putty in Cersei's hands and easily manipulated.  The man who could handle Cersei is the Red Viper.

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11 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Westeros was not the home of humans.  The humans came along and displaced the native species.  Human progress may be good for the humans but it does harm the other living things on the planet.  There is a need for an automatic mechanism to keep humans from overpopulating. 

Going this way, that far, the error was gods or Nature or whoever you chose, creating men. Or not creating them with the same aspirations, qualities, as CotF. Men are what they are, and everything else derives from it.

ETA: That is why I think the story (men) need a fix outside human nature. Because by themselves, they will always return to this violence.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Going this way, that far, the error was gods or Nature or whoever you chose, creating men. Or not creating them with the same aspirations, qualities, as CotF. Men are what they are, and everything else derives from it.

ETA: That is why I think the story (men) need a fix outside human nature. Because by themselves, they will always return to this violence.

Nature's biggest mistake was us humans. Applies both to Planetos and our earth now 

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On 12/3/2020 at 12:21 PM, broken one said:

Robert deciding to drag his fat ass to Winterfell and ask Ned to become his hand.

Totally agree, he should have chose Stannis or at least Renly. Ned is a Northerner, he's not build to rule the South, specially when he is surrounded by shady people at best (Pycelle), dangerous plotters (Varys and Littlefinger), lazy ass King (Robert himself) and tyrants in making (Cersei and Joffrey). 

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10 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

Totally agree, he should have chose Stannis or at least Renly. Ned is a Northerner, he's not build to rule the South, specially when he is surrounded by shady people at best (Pycelle), dangerous plotters (Varys and Littlefinger), lazy ass King (Robert himself) and tyrants in making (Cersei and Joffrey). 

I partially disagree, while Ned is not great for politics and plots, he is a good ruler, and he's he perfect person to turn Robert into a better ruler.

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13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I partially disagree, while Ned is not great for politics and plots, he is a good ruler, and he's he perfect person to turn Robert into a better ruler.

I didn't say he is a bad ruler, he has done a great job in the North, but he can't do the same in the South with plotters, shady people and tyrants in making.

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1 hour ago, Willam Stark said:

I didn't say he is a bad ruler, he has done a great job in the North, but he can't do the same in the South with plotters, shady people and tyrants in making.

Yah, I know you didn't say that, I just think that those other characteristics (specially being the only one with the hearth and the balls to talk back to Robert when it matters) make him a good candidate for hand.

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On 12/4/2020 at 1:51 PM, TheLastWolf said:

Nature's biggest mistake was us humans. Applies both to Planetos and our earth now 

So would you agree with the Others wiping human from Planetos? ... Unless something changes.

IMO the Others are the Nature, gods, whatever servants, come to fix the mess. And mess there is. If humans defeat them in the mother of battles, the message will be: "war and destruction are the adequate way to win when you are wrong". IMO, to survive, humans will have to comply to the Others' will (praying they have something else in mind than total destruction). IMO Rhaegar made the kingdom weak, so there is no other alternative for the PtwP, whether he knew it or not.

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On 12/3/2020 at 5:17 PM, CamiloRP said:

I agree with you, still, having Ned as hand would have made things different, tho not necessarily better. Ned was always more wiling to fight Robert than Jon Arryn, way more. And if Ned had been Hand from the beginning, Robert would have never married Cersei and Littlefinger would have never been made Master of Coin. Those two things were some of the biggest causes for the WOT5K, meaning it would probably never happened. Both JA and RB would have likely lived longer. And succession would have been way more clear, so Varys, LF and Doran would've had a much harder time causing trouble, with a unified Stark-Baratheon-Tully alliance, plus Arryn, if JA lived, and whatever house married Robert, likely the Tyrells. That would be a hard alliance to break down and an impossible one to beat in a war.

You got me thinking about a few things in this scenario.   What if Robert had married Lyanna?  She would be queen and Cersei wouldn't even be on the table at this point...unless Lyanna was always destined to die in childbirth.  I agree that Ned was disciplined and courageous, willing to do neccessary and hard things for the sake of honor.  What would honor look like in the immediate aftermath of Robert's Rebellion?   Would Ned have been able to control his wild king?   Would Benjen have been released from his duties to be permitted to be the Stark in Winterfell?  What sort of job would he have done in that position?   Would Cat have been more comfortable in Kings Landing than the North?  Curiously, given my bent against the lovely Catelyn, i think she could have been very useful and productive in central politics.   Wonder if she could have helped Walder Frey get rid of some of his progeny.  As you point out, the Small Council would have looked much differently under Ned's leadership.  He didn't like Varys, but we see how he could be won over.  Interesting stuff to consider.  

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9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You got me thinking about a few things in this scenario.   What if Robert had married Lyanna?  She would be queen and Cersei wouldn't even be on the table at this point...unless Lyanna was always destined to die in childbirth.  I agree that Ned was disciplined and courageous, willing to do neccessary and hard things for the sake of honor.  What would honor look like in the immediate aftermath of Robert's Rebellion?   Would Ned have been able to control his wild king?   Would Benjen have been released from his duties to be permitted to be the Stark in Winterfell?  What sort of job would he have done in that position?   Would Cat have been more comfortable in Kings Landing than the North?  Curiously, given my bent against the lovely Catelyn, i think she could have been very useful and productive in central politics.   Wonder if she could have helped Walder Frey get rid of some of his progeny.  As you point out, the Small Council would have looked much differently under Ned's leadership.  He didn't like Varys, but we see how he could be won over.  Interesting stuff to consider.  

It's been a while since a post in here tickled my interest in this way.

I think Robert would remain unmarried for a longer time, Ned wouldn't push him as hard in this situation and the only great house with a woman in marrying age would be Lannister, so he would wait till Arianne or more likely Margeary are able to marry him.

Bejen joined the NW 'within a few months' of Ned's return North, so he wouldn't have taken the black at this point and he would definitely be the Stark in Winterfell. Maybe he would marry lady Dustin, or some Manderly or something. I think he would do a good job, tho not as good as Ned and it partially depends on who he marries.

Cat would have been way happier in KL, and her an Ned would be a great team too.

Now for other guesses:

Jon would have been warded by Bejen and shaped to be Winterfell's steward, as Ned wouldn't want him at court.

Ned maybe could've convinced Robert to give the Mountain and Lorch to the Dornish, but never Tywin and never to have Jaime take the black.

Without LF as MOC (tho I don't know who would replace him, maybe Mace Tyrell??) the realm wouldn't be in financial troubles and I think Ned would partially focus that into making the NW stronger. Tho maybe, if Jon Arryn (probably as MOL) still got a position in the SC, he could've convince Robert to have him become MOC anyway.

But the biggest difference is that Tywin likely would've started his own war not so long after to take the throne himself, if he manages to pull a Cersei/Willas Tyrell marriage before Robert is able to wed Margeary or Arianne, then he would have 150k well equipped soldiers, with his cunning planning and maybe even a Greyjoy alliance he could've beaten Robert's forces. Or maybe he would pull a Doran and call his forces in the middle of the Greyjoy rebellion and press Robert into a marriage with Cersei. Balon is not stupid enough to attack the Westerlands when they are not allies of the King.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

So would you agree with the Others wiping human from Planetos?

We don't know that for sure. If their intentions are genocide or apocalypse or Armageddon or something. GRRM is different from Tolkien when it comes to inherently evil species. No orcs. 

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

We don't know that for sure. If their intentions are genocide or apocalypse or Armageddon or something

I didn't say they are the evil. Rather the contrary.

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Tourney at Harrenhal hands down. Also would throw out there:

 

  • Barristan being allowed to rescue Aerys.
  • Jon bringing Baelish to KL.
  • Varys being pardoned by Robert.
  • Loren Lannister kneeling.

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Robert and the small council deciding to assassinate Dany, this led to a sequence of events that lead to the birth of dragons and everything that follows.  

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On 12/3/2020 at 7:27 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Possibly, possibly.  But Rhaegar had his glaring weaknesses.  Such as a lack of judgment.  He is in truth an introvert.  Rhaegar would be putty in Cersei's hands and easily manipulated.  The man who could handle Cersei is the Red Viper.

I wonder what kind of wife Cersei would've been to Rhaegar.  The Red Viper and Cersei would've killed each other quicker than Cersei did for Robert.

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On 12/5/2020 at 10:36 AM, CamiloRP said:

But the biggest difference is that Tywin likely would've started his own war not so long after to take the throne himself, if he manages to pull a Cersei/Willas Tyrell marriage before Robert is able to wed Margeary or Arianne, then he would have 150k well equipped soldiers, with his cunning planning and maybe even a Greyjoy alliance he could've beaten Robert's forces. Or maybe he would pull a Doran and call his forces in the middle of the Greyjoy rebellion and press Robert into a marriage with Cersei. Balon is not stupid enough to attack the Westerlands when they are not allies of the King.

 

 

I never saw Tywin as power hungry.  He could have taken the throne for himself prior to marrying Cersei to Robert. He could have rallied the remaining Targaryen forces, but didn't.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't see Tywin doing that.

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15 minutes ago, TyrionsFlagon said:

I never saw Tywin as power hungry.  He could have taken the throne for himself prior to marrying Cersei to Robert. He could have rallied the remaining Targaryen forces, but didn't.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't see Tywin doing that.

Maybe, but if he killed Aerys the Tyrells wouldn't have supported him, and him alone couldn't win against 4 kingdoms.

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Tywin allowing Selmy to save Aerys II at Duskendale. 

If Aerys dies there the Rebellion never happens or is at least stalled for a long while, Jon Snow and Danaerys aren't born, dragons aren't reborn, and the Others likely run into a more populated but far less prepared Seven Kingdoms. 

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