Angel Eyes Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 So in the thread about the “Rulership Genius of Cersei Lannister“, @TheLastWolf indicates that Ned and Catelyn knew about what Joffrey was like, pregnant cat cut open and all. If they knew about Joffrey, why did Ned, who of all people would know about incompatible betrothals, agree to the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa? And why did Catelyn brush off Ned’s misgivings about the match? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 They probably only knew he was an arrogant prince. Later at darry Ned most likely found out some of Joffreys sadistic ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 No. Ned and Cat had no reason at the beginning to suspect Joffrey was anything other than a spoiled princeling. Even after the incedent at the Trident, only Arya and Sansa had direct evidence of Joffrey unhinged. Ned'a first inkling was when Robert told him point blank, "You don't know the boy as I do, Ned. How could I have fathered a son like that?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varya Lemoncake Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: So in the thread about the “Rulership Genius of Cersei Lannister“, @TheLastWolf indicates that Ned and Catelyn knew about what Joffrey was like, pregnant cat cut open and all. If they knew about Joffrey, why did Ned, who of all people would know about incompatible betrothal, agree to the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa? And why did Catelyn brush off Ned’s misgivings about the match? I don't think it's common knowledge at all. Only the small council and close servants know, and they're not likely to talk about it freely. People see what they want to see - a handsome young prince, spoilt, yes, but so are many noble kids and adults. Regarding the match I believe they don't have a choice really, it's their superior informing them, rather then proposing a discussion on the matter. And I wish we knew what Ned was really going to say about Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 There is the hint that they knew something was off in here Quote "While Joffrey is..." "The Crown Prince" Catelyn finished As to the extent of his fucked upness, obviously they didn't, but they were still reallly bad parents to bethroded their precious daughter to someone who was shady at best, and should have looked more into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: There is the hint that they knew something was off in here Quote "While Joffrey is..." "The Crown Prince" Catelyn finished Err mm Alyn, I posted the same which is mentioned in the OP. Which was what prompted Angel Eyes to start this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said: Err mm Alyn, I posted the same which is mentioned in the OP. Which was what prompted Angel Eyes to start this thread Sorry, didn't notice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: And why did Catelyn brush off Ned’s misgivings about the match? Because she cared more about status and image then the happiness of her daughter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted December 3, 2020 Author Share Posted December 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Because she cared more about status and image then the happiness of her daughter Like father like daughter. Hoster didn’t think about what would make Lysa happy either when he tricked her into drinking moon tea which nearly killed her. Imagine if it did... betrothed her to Jon Arryn who didn’t love her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Just now, Angel Eyes said: 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Because she cared more about status and image then the happiness of her daughter Like father like daughter. Hoster didn’t think about what would make Lysa happy either when he betrothed her to Jon Arryn. I think the moons tea is a far better example of Hoster's dickinshness. Jon Arryn, while old wasn't like to mistreat her or anything (unlike Joffrey, even if it was just rumors). The moons tea however is beyond awful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted December 3, 2020 Author Share Posted December 3, 2020 4 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I think the moons tea is a far better example of Hoster's dickinshness. Jon Arryn, while old wasn't like to mistreat her or anything (unlike Joffrey, even if it was just rumors). The moons tea however is beyond awful I just edited that into my response. It took him until his deathbed to feel sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: 5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I think the moons tea is a far better example of Hoster's dickinshness. Jon Arryn, while old wasn't like to mistreat her or anything (unlike Joffrey, even if it was just rumors). The moons tea however is beyond awful I just edited that into my response. Honestly, Hoster always truck me as Tywin lite, his actions, from changing Catelyn from Brandon to Ned and the moons tea thing all show a Tywin level disregard for the happiness of his family as long as t gave him power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: So in the thread about the “Rulership Genius of Cersei Lannister“, @TheLastWolf indicates that Ned and Catelyn knew about what Joffrey was like, pregnant cat cut open and all. If they knew about Joffrey, why did Ned, who of all people would know about incompatible betrothals, agree to the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa? And why did Catelyn brush off Ned’s misgivings about the match? Ned seems to have a hunch: Quote "Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey is . . . Joffrey is . . ." We never hear what Ned thinks Joffrey is -- could be a psycho, or just a Lannister -- but it shows that Ned has his doubts. But it also doesn't appear that the Starks have eyes and ears at court, like the Tyrells do. So he is probably just reacting to rumors, since the last time he even saw Robert was when Joffrey was four or five. So they may have their doubts, but it's not enough to refuse an offer that would make Sansa queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: As to the extent of his fucked upness, obviously they didn't, but they were still reallly bad parents to bethroded their precious daughter to someone who was shady at best, and should have looked more into. This neatly illustrates the difference between Westerosi culture and our own. By Ned's and Catelyn's standards (especially Catelyn) they were doing right by their daughter in betrothing her to the highest-status consort in the land. That is simply their reality. So the question becomes: which is more at fault, a badly fucked-up culture or the people who have been trained since birth to abide by its (badly fucked-up) dictates? It's a rare person who can mentally and emotionally distance themselves from their upbringing, their training and inculcated beliefs to recognize the shortcomings and defects of the society they are immersed in. Most especially when, exactly like Ned and Catelyn, they are at the pinnacle of that very society, where they are the recipients of all its benefits and at the same time insulated from most (if not all) of its defects. As such, they and others of their class have zero impetus to think critically about their notions of reality causing harm. To rephrase Sinclair Lewis' famous saying for a Westeros context, it is difficult to get people to fully understand the negative aspects of their own culture when their status and power depends upon their not understanding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: There is the hint that they knew something was off in here The hint is called benefit of hindsight. Quote The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?” “He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?” Ned did not like Joffrey after the Darry incident, from there to considerhim a little monster... 23 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: As to the extent of his fucked upness, obviously they didn't, but they were still reallly bad parents to bethroded their precious daughter to someone who was shady at best, and should have looked more into. They bethrothed her to the heir of the crown... who happened to be Eddard's best friend. Unless Joffrey started disemboweling cats in front of them... what could they really say?? And the point was that they couldn't really say no without upsetting Robert. 20 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Because she cared more about status and image then the happiness of her daughter Was Sansa not thrilled with the idea?? Aren't the nobles raised to be political chips?? 20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Like father like daughter. Hoster didn’t think about what would make Lysa happy either when he tricked her into drinking moon tea which nearly killed her. Imagine if it did... betrothed her to Jon Arryn who didn’t love her. How do you figure?? Do you think that Lysa would've been happier as an oucast and the mother of bastard than as the lady Eyrie?? Why people tend to act as if noble women being pregnant with bastards is not tantamount of becoming a pariah in Westeros?? 19 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Honestly, Hoster always truck me as Tywin lite, his actions, from changing Catelyn from Brandon to Ned and the moons tea thing all show a Tywin level disregard for the happiness of his family as long as t gave him power. Nor of that shows a Tywin level of disregard for the happiness of his family. Hoster would not be doing Lysa any favors by allowing her to have the baby. Hoster could not know that Lysa would almost die by drinking the moon tea, it's portrayed as harmless in the books and some women drink it as it was water. Changing Brandon to Ned was customary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Sorry, didn't notice No problem 9 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Because she cared more about status and image then the happiness of her daughter 9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: Like father like daughter. Hoster didn’t think about what would make Lysa happy either when he tricked her into drinking moon tea which nearly killed her. Imagine if it did... betrothed her to Jon Arryn who didn’t love her. Your Mirror and Foil analysis rubbing off. Great! 9 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Ned seems to have a hunch: Quote "Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey is . . . Joffrey is . . ." We never hear what Ned thinks Joffrey is -- could be a psycho, or just a Lannister -- but it shows that Ned has his doubts. Et tu brute?! I said it in some thread from where Angel Eyes started this one. Alyn didn't notice. It's in the OP. I myself wouldnt have if it didn't pertain to me. No probs. Just saying. This point said by three, no four people. Me, quoted by Angel Eyes, Alyn and you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Stark Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 5 hours ago, frenin said: The hint is called benefit of hindsight. Ned did not like Joffrey after the Darry incident, from there to considerhim a little monster... They bethrothed her to the heir of the crown... who happened to be Eddard's best friend. Unless Joffrey started disemboweling cats in front of them... what could they really say?? And the point was that they couldn't really say no without upsetting Robert. Was Sansa not thrilled with the idea?? Aren't the nobles raised to be political chips?? How do you figure?? Do you think that Lysa would've been happier as an oucast and the mother of bastard than as the lady Eyrie?? Why people tend to act as if noble women being pregnant is tantamount of becoming a pariah in Westeros?? Nor of that shows a Tywin level of disregard for the happiness of his family. Hoster would not be doing Lysa any favors by allowing her to have the baby. Hoster could not know that Lysa would almost die by drinking the moon tea, it's portrayed as harmless in the books and some women drink it as it was water. Changing Brandon to Ned was customary. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the story of the dead direwolf (sigil of House Stark) gored by a dead stag (sigil of House Baratheon) was weighing on Catelyn's mind when she pressured Ned to go to Kings Landing. She took this as a sign that her family might be in danger if they upset the royal House. That was certainly on her mind, as we read Catelyn thinking about the dead direwolf more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted December 4, 2020 Author Share Posted December 4, 2020 20 hours ago, frenin said: How do you figure?? Do you think that Lysa would've been happier as an oucast and the mother of bastard than as the lady Eyrie?? Why people tend to act as if noble women being pregnant with bastards is not tantamount of becoming a pariah in Westeros?? She wasn't happier as the wife of Jon Arryn, what with multiple miscarriages and only sickly Sweetrobin surviving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: She wasn't happier as the wife of Jon Arryn, what with multiple miscarriages and only sickly Sweetrobin surviving. Did they plan her to have multiple miscarriages?? Had she actually not have miscarriages, she would've been decently happy. Quote She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father's care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert's rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. "Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it." She was so happy. She certainly enjoyed ruling the Eyrie anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 They did not know. How could they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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