Catelyn's A+ parenting

[frenin]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She didn't knew it, but Ned cleary knew something was wrong with the boy, and she completly ignores and cut him before listening to his point. Just like Tywin and Hoster she only saw a future grandson as king, and did not care for the nature of her son-in-law.

No, he didn't.

 

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The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?” “He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?”

Even after the Darry incident, Ned simply dislikes Joffrey, he doesn't think of him as a devil in the making and he clearly disagrees with Robert's take,  which was that clearly something  was wrong with the boy.

Joffrey does not behave as anything else than an asshole, once,  in front of Ned and he's ¿maybe? an stuck up kid in front of Cat.

Btw, how many parents would not marry their daughters to the crown prince??

 

@Alyn Oakenfist Your post does not make the sense you believe it does, i was going to answer it but after the "who does Cat believe she is by berating two kings"... well. Not gonna.

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Btw, how many parents would not marry their daughters to the crown prince??

Probably Ned Stark, as he cleary was in doubt about the whole betrothal. 

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, he didn't.

Then how to you explain his concerns about the match ? Ned cleary had something to say about the boy before being cut short by his wife.

 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

My opinion of Catelyn is good mother but bad leader.  Most mothers would push to have her daughter marry a prince.  Is it not the wish of every mother to do this?  Rickard pushed to have Lyanna engaged to an unfaithful boy.  Catelyn inherited her father's very ambitious nature. 

She's not a leader though. She exists in a society that will never take her seriously as a leader, especially a leader in War (I'm aware there are some exceptions to the rule on this in Westeros, but unless you have a Dragon it is almost impossible for a woman to be on level terms with a man in the eyes of the Westerosi).

"You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things."

"You are the gentle sex," said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. "A man has a need for vengeance."

 

Look at the shit she has to deal with. Men who likely genuinely respect and like her, still can't take her thoughts on war seriously.

 

She can't lead, not because she is bad at it, but the society is simply not built for it. She can only advise and hope to be listened to.

[frenin]

25 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Probably Ned Stark, as he cleary was in doubt about the whole betrothal. 

Ned didn't want to have anything with King's Landing and he was clearly insecure about the whole matter. The fact that you can't bring up more names should tell you enough. This is the world they live in, bethrothal was as normal to them as free marriage is to us.

 

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She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.” That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

 

 

25 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Then how to you explain his concerns about the match ? Ned cleary had something to say about the boy before being cut short by his wife.

That using the benefit of hindsight is not the best thing to draw conclusions. If i were to guess i'd say that Ned does not want his daughter to be married with a Lannister and he's not too eager with becoming one big family with Tywin and Jaime. He could also be thinking about Joff's age, to make a point that it's too sonon.

There are other explanations, yours is the impossible one.

The idea that Ned believed Joffrey... Joffrey is absurd, Ned does not even know that Robert is fatter and the Crown is bankrupt, hhe's completely isolated living his life.

 

[Arthur Peres]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

That using the benefit of hindsight is not the best thing to draw conclusions. If i were to guess i'd say that Ned does not want his daughter to be married with a Lannister and he's not too eager with becoming one big family with Tywin and Jaime. He could also be thinking about Joff's age, to make a point that it's too sonon.

 

Joffrey was a Baratheon, and Ned does not judge a kid by his family, he went as far as to opose the whole small council and piss of the king to protect the daughter of the guy that murdered his father and brother, being grandson of Tywin is nothing compared to this.

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

There are other explanations, yours is the impossible one.

 

How is it impossible? Joffrey was staying at Winterfell for days at this point, Ned got to observe the kid and only saw problems there. He kept the company of the Hound, he defy Ser Rodrik and wants to use real swords, he starts a fight with Robb out of nowhere. Arya and Jon for instance already spoked ill of the boy still in Winterfell. 

Even if Ned only saw Joffrey as some asshole, he cleary had some problem with the boy to be so doubtfull about the match, and his family being the issue would be very out of character, given the Daenerys episode mentioned earlier.

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Lysa?...

LOL. We could start a separate thread on that. Worst moms and dads. But since it's Planetos, there are way too many. 

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So a lot of people focus on Jon's relation with Cat, which frankly to me is pretty bland and uninteresting. They just ignored each other, and there is little thought about the other. However, what most people overlook is Catelyn's relation to his other siblings, and boy does it make anything she did to Jon seem the act of a loving adult by comparison. (disclaimer I'm not saying she's an abusive parent or anything like that, but she is a really bad parent). So...

I happen to think that she has been a good parent who has produced a brood of solid citizens.  More on that later.

 

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- she actively pushes for Sansa to be betrothed to Joffrey, even though it's clear they know something is off about him. No investigation, no "let's find out more so we can decide". She just wants her to marry him, her happiness be damned. Good start.

They know nothing about Joffrey, other than he act like an entitled, spoiled brat.  Given that he is a 12 year-old crown prince, that is hardly a surprise.  It certainly isn't a deal breaker for a betrothal.  I don't think it was apparent even to readers that Joffrey was bad news at least until the Trident, and maybe even after that.  By the time Ned figures it out, it is too late, although he eventually does decide to end it, around the time he decides to send the girls back to Winterfell.

As for the marriage, it is, in theory, a great match.  Sansa was probably the leading candidate for it from the moment she was born.

 

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- next up she seems to have a mission in life to make Arya behave like a lady, because if there's anything the Stark family history shows is that the solution to rebellious girls is to put the screw on them until they snap. Ned by contrast is smart enough (tbf after Lyanna he'd have to be moron otherwise) to realize that the best solution to Arya is to let her have her escape valves, and not to try and forcefully mold her into something that she isn't.

Of course Arya is going to be a lady.   She is a noble girl.  It's what they do.  And guess who tells Arya she has to be a lady.  That would be Ned.  And when Arya replies she doesn't want to be a lady, he snaps back at her.  Yes he gives her an outlet with the sword.  He also expects her, in return, to behave herself, obey Septa Mordane, and be nice to Sansa.

Arya has fond memories of her mother, and thinks of her quite frequently, realizing her mother would be disappointed in her actions, which bothers her.  She even takes her mother's name as an alias at one point.

 

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- After the gang departs Winterfell, Catelyn decides to sit around and watch paint dry besides Brandon, instead of helping her son take on the buttload of responsibilities he has, or be there for her scared and confused youngest son. Now don't start screaming at me, but having had first hand experience (though by God I wish I'd never had) this is the exact behavior of a Munchhausen by proxy mother. I'm not saying she has it, nor that she hurt Bran, but the attitude of doing very visible but completely useless support action for your kid, while being generally neglectful and toxic, that is just spot on.

Bran damn near died, and, given that he is in a coma, is still not really out of danger.  He was her favorite, and she may feel some guilt about the fact that she didn't want him to leave.  She may overdo it a bit, but I find it hard to really criticize her for it.  And after the catspaw attack, she snapped out of it, and became quite sensible.

 

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Further on, there is the remark that she would send Robb home if it weren't for how bad it would look. Catelyn, who do you think you are, he's the acting lord of Winterfell. He's not a dwarf for you to kidnap, he's the man you take your orders from.

He's 15 years old, which means he isn't even an adult yet, even in Westeros.  He really has no business leading an army, given his age and (lack of) experience.  She does give him good advice, though.  Too bad he didn't always take it.

 

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

- Her trying to snub Jon is putting Robb's cause in danger for her pettiness. An heirless King is way more likely to be assasinated, rather then one with a strong heir who the would be assassins know could exact vengeance. And guess what that's exactly what happens. The Freys and Boltons pull out the Red Wedding and with there being no heir, they face no repercussions. In her "advice" she puts her petty jealousy in front of Robb's immediate needs.

True, she neither likes nor trusts Jon.  Still, it is worth noting that he is a man of the Nights Watch, which means he isn't even eligible to be Robb's heir in the first place.  And Robb's plan to essentially bribe the NW looks much like a hail mary pass with little likelihood of success.

13 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Now the sentiment is not entirely wrong, regarding the 2, but Catelyn, really, who do you think you are? You're a nobody talking to two Kings.

Catelyn is the chosen envoy of Robb Stark, the King in the North, who has a very large army which has been having success against Tywin Lannister.  She is also the mother of the (juvenile) Lord of Winterfell, and the widow of the previous one.  Not to mention the daughter of the Lord of Riverrun.  She is most definitely NOT a nobody, nor is she treated as one.

 

It is also worth noting that her children are solid citizens all.  Yes, the have flaws, and have made bad judgments, but so is everyone else.  They all have a solid moral compass, and a solid ethical grounding, with empathy and care for others.  And whatever Arya's problems are, they stem from her wartime experiences, not her upbringing.  In fact, I suspect that her upbringing by Catelyn and Ned has prevented her from going down an even darker path from the one she is on.  

All in all,, I think she has been a perfectly good mother; certainly a long distance from being a bad one

 

10 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also in regards to her doing stupid shit, yes I know, character and all that, but in her stupidities, she dismally failed as a mother. Also you skipped the part where she did more harm then good to Sansa. Anyone with half a brain would have realized that letting Jaime go would harm Sansa, letting her be at the mercy of the Lannisters.

The only bad thing that happened after Jaime's release was her marriage to Tyrion, and that had nothing to do with his release.  Tywin came to the realization that she would be a focus of marriage plots, and felt the need to get her off the marriage market.  Tyrion was the best option to do so.  Her beatings had stopped by that point; I think they stopped after her betrothal ended.

 

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

She even takes her mother's name as an alias at one point.

Arya names herself Cat after their high population in the Braavosi Canals. IIRC she doesn't think of her mom then. Not sure tho 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

They know nothing about Joffrey, other than he act like an entitled, spoiled brat. 

She, not they. Ned suspects. We'll never know what. Only can speculate. 

An ongoing thread about this, no doubt you are aware of it. 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

She does give him good advice, though.  Too bad he didn't always take it.

Only good advice was about Theon. She was and is wrong about Jon. I shudder to think if Robb had agreed with her dumb stupid fucked up opinion on Jon. 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

is also worth noting that her children are solid citizens all.  Yes, the have flaws, and have made bad judgments, but so is everyone else.  They all have a solid moral compass, and a solid ethical grounding, with empathy and care for others

All credit goes to Ned. Cat is just an elitist snob. 

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

All in all,, I think she has been a perfectly good mother; certainly a long distance from being a bad one

Whaaaat!? Alyn are you listening to this?! 

[Daeron the Daring]

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He's 15 years old, which means he isn't even an adult yet, even in Westeros. He really has no business leading an army, given his age and (lack of) experience. She does give him good advice, though. Too bad he didn't always take it.

@Nevets, neither did Daeron I needed regency at the age of 13. Or at least Viserys II tought this.

[broken one]

Catelyn is perfect lady of a great house, she does what is expected from her and tries to put their children into frames, so they would perfectly meet expectations. Honor and duty. She understands duty to her house as building its power, this is why she pushes Ned and Sansa up... and into trouble. She is one of the best written characters in the books imo but I disliked her from the first read for the ambitions that make her blind. Actually she is at it like many mothers, but in this case the bet is life.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Arya names herself Cat after their high population in the Braavosi Canals. IIRC she doesn't think of her mom then. Not sure tho 

She, not they. Ned suspects. We'll never know what. Only can speculate. 

An ongoing thread about this, no doubt you are aware of it. 

Only good advice was about Theon. She was and is wrong about Jon. I shudder to think if Robb had agreed with her dumb stupid fucked up opinion on Jon. 

All credit goes to Ned. Cat is just an elitist snob. 

Whaaaat!? Alyn are you listening to this?! 

This is a story about the 1%.  With very few exceptions, they share a set of prejudices.  There’s nothing illogical about Catelyn’s fears of legitimising Jon, given the history of the Blackfyres.

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Joffrey was a Baratheon, and Ned does not judge a kid by his family, he went as far as to opose the whole small council and piss of the king to protect the daughter of the guy that murdered his father and brother, being grandson of Tywin is nothing compared to this.

Nope, Ned does not want to kill kids for their familiies's past wrongdoings.  He has never talked about marrying into the Targs and he has not once talked about returning the Targlings to exile, his choice for Cersei and her children. He doesn't want them near either, he just doesn't want them dead.

Joffrey being Robert's son may sweeten things but Ned's and the Lannisters bad blood is rather clear.

 

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

How is it impossible?

Because we get to see how Joffrey behaved and we know how  "sweet" Joffrey can be when he's trying to. Nothing Joffrey does in Winterfell screams little psycho.

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Ned got to observe the kid and only saw problems there

Did he?? He didn't mention it.

 

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

He kept the company of the Hound, he defy Ser Rodrik and wants to use real swords, he starts a fight with Robb out of nowhere. Arya and Jon for instance already spoked ill of the boy still in Winterfell. 

1. The Hound is Joffrey's sworn sword.
2. Brat at best.
3. Brat at best.
4. Why would Ned care about Jon and Arya believing Joffrey looks like a girl??

Don't you see how absurd your grievances sound??  

 

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Even if Ned only saw Joffrey as some asshole, he cleary had some problem with the boy to be so doubtfull about the match, and his family being the issue would be very out of character, given the Daenerys episode mentioned earlier.

He didn't. Benefit of hindsight talking,  it can go from his family to his age. Ned doesn't want to hurry things up. He's clearly telling you.

 

@TheLastWolf

 

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She, not they. Ned suspects. We'll never know what. Only can speculate. 

Suspects what?? Why Ned not once brings this suspicions up?? We have what, 14 chapters on his mind... and nothing.

 

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She was and is wrong about Jon. I shudder to think if Robb had agreed with her dumb stupid fucked up opinion on Jon. 

She was neither with Jon. As Jon himself would later clarify.

 

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I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.
He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

And as Cat points out, that Robb trusts Jon would not betray him doesn't mean that either of them can be so certain about how their own children would interact.

And what would've happened if Robb agreed with Cat and didn't disown Sansa??

 

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All credit goes to Ned. Cat is just an elitist snob. 

Trying to imply that Ned isn't.

The Starks would be the one abd only family in which the father and lord has to do more with the parenting than the Lady... Her literal job, overseeing the children.

 

[TheLastWolf]

43 minutes ago, frenin said:

Suspects what?? Why Ned not once brings this suspicions up?? We have what, 14 chapters on his mind... and nothing.

Sigh 

Did you even read that post of mine? The excerpt? Oh sorry, it was in another topic, got quoted by Angel in another one of his, got overlooked by Alyn and Suburbs. And I'm pissed off. 

Spoiler

Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey … Joffrey is …"

 

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

 

Suggests to me Ned had heard the tales. Pregnant cat... 

 

[frenin]

18 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Sigh 

Did you even read that post of mine? The excerpt? Oh sorry, it was in another topic, got quoted by Angel in another one of his, got overlooked by Alyn and Suburbs. And I'm pissed off. 

I see  you don't read  other posts either, yes, we're all aware of that quote. Not a prove of anything. Ned himself doesn't show anu suspicions when thinking about the kid and even after the Darry incident he merely dislikes him.

 

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Suggests to me Ned had heard the tales. Pregnant cat... 

Or Ned was talking about his age, his family, his hair or any number of things. Given that he was talking about Sansa's age, it's likely that he was just trying to remember the age of a kid he hadn't seen or thought about  in a decade

 

Isn't it nice that those alledged tales are never suggested in Ned's own POVs??

 

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The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?” “He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?”

 

[TheLastWolf]

@frenin, we will never know what Ned was about to say to Cat and don't you think it's intentional on GRRM's part? Cat has screwed up so many times. GRRM's intention. This might just be another screw up. Left to the readers to speculate. Given Ned's hesitation, more like psycho in the making than Mother Teresa 

[broken one]

1 minute ago, TheLastWolf said:

@frenin, we will never know what Ned was about to say to Cat and don't you think it's intentional on GRRM's part? Cat has screwed up so many times. GRRM's intention. This might just be another screw up. Left to the readers to speculate. Given Ned's hesitation, more like psycho in the making than Mother Teresa 

Mother Theresa was psycho in action, EOT

[TheLastWolf]

2 minutes ago, broken one said:

Mother Theresa was psycho in action, EOT

Care to explain that? Or else my reaction is  

[frenin]

22 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

we will never know what Ned was about to say to Cat and don't you think it's intentional on GRRM's part?

We do know however what he was not about to say. 

I think most of things are intentional when reading a book.

 

23 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Given Ned's hesitation, more like psycho in the making than Mother Teresa 

Then you are not reading Ned's pov. You're just nitpicking to shit on characters you don't like.

Ned himself says Joffrey is just a boy.

 

[Alyn Oakenfist]

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

I happen to think that she has been a good parent who has produced a brood of solid citizens.

Yes, a King who put his dick before his people, a girl who ratted on her family, another one who is a cold killer and a boy who is a tree. Sorry to break it to you, but Jon is the Stark child that came out best. Coincidence? I think not...

9 hours ago, Nevets said:

The only bad thing that happened after Jaime's release was her marriage to Tyrion, and that had nothing to do with his release.  Tywin came to the realization that she would be a focus of marriage plots

It had everything to do with Catelyn, Tywin wouldn't have dared with Jaime prisoner.

5 hours ago, broken one said:

Catelyn is perfect lady of a great house, she does what is expected from her and tries to put their children into frames, so they would perfectly meet expectations. Honor and duty. She understands duty to her house as building its power, this is why she pushes Ned and Sansa up... and into trouble. She is one of the best written characters in the books imo but I disliked her from the first read for the ambitions that make her blind. Actually she is at it like many mothers, but in this case the bet is life.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And as Cat points out, that Robb trusts Jon would not betray him doesn't mean that either of them can be so certain about how their own children would interact.

Yes there is a long term threat in creating a Stark cadet branch unless you incest Habsburg stile. However that pales in comparison to the risks of being an heirless King. Better a risk in the far off future then an immediate threat of assassination. As for Cat being right about Jon, mate there's a difference in wanting something and killing your own beloved brother.

[broken one]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Care to explain that? Or else my reaction is  

Proselytism as main goal, baptizing ill and dying against their will, refusing giving painkillers (belief that suffering itself has any value), no standards of medical care (medieval type of hospital - just a place to die), crusade against contraception. Everything done for show.