The Flight From Dragonstone

[Pontius Pilate]

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive? 
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload. 
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

12 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive? 
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload. 
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? 

We literally can't answer these questions, so this is just an exercise in thinking out loud for you. Though I'll admit, they're good questions to ask.

But I don't think Marwyn was the one who delivered Daenerys. He's distrusted because of his wanderings and studies in magic. And there's already a connection between Marwyn and Daenerys anyway, and it was set up in the first book; Marwyn was one of the mentors of the witch who killed Dany's unborn baby, and whose death was used to hatch the dragon eggs. If Marwyn was on Dragonstone and was willing to serve the Targaryens, why wouldn't he just have gone with them across the Narrow Sea as well?

[Pontius Pilate]

Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said:

We literally can't answer these questions, so this is just an exercise in thinking out loud for you. Though I'll admit, they're good questions to ask.

True.  Guilty of that. 

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

Just now, Pontius Pilate said:

True.  Guilty of that. 

 

I've been guilty of it too, so I say that without malice.

[Pontius Pilate]

1 minute ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I've been guilty of it too, so I say that without malice.

thanks

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

1 hour ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive? 
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload. 
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? 

#2 Marwyn could have delivered the baby from The Tower of Joy and then still be at Dragonstone to deliver the Princess.  Enough time, at least months, between the two births.  He could have been present for both. 

#4 Likely so.  A copy like that would not be thrown away.  Daenys would have brought a copy to her new home. 

#5 Aegon helped Braavos in the past.  Sometimes it's a belief on who should rule and no more than that. 

[LynnS]

I just don't know. sorry.  For the record,  I'm all for thinking out loud.  I think it's called talking.  

But I will take a guess at the four 'companions": Willem Derry, a squire, a maester, a wet nurse and a smuggler.

ETA: I can't remember exactly how the story goes or who tells it. I'm a bit skeptical of the story that loyalists had to bust in and take Viserys and Dany.  Wouldn't this be a black Ops and an inside job?  Perhaps a cover story?

What is the minimum number of people who should be in the know and who do you need with you?

[Shi Qiang]

I hope the four still are alive so Dany can reward them for their loyal service. 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

7 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive?  Hanging out somewhere in Essos.  They were commoners with superior sense of duty.  I'm hoping they are.
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?  Marwyn is a very good guess.
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload.  Darry took enough gold to purchase a large house and hire servants.  The gold lasted five years.
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.  Very likely.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? I hope this means Braavos is pro-Daenerys.  Their ships could be useful.

 

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive? 
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload. 
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? 

These are some interesting musings you've got here.  I can't pretend to have any answers, but I can add questions for you to ponder.  Who are the 4?  Hrm, seems we have Rhaegar with his at least 3 missing in action.  Could there be some sort of hint or even parallel in this?  We know that ladies from the highest families waited on Alysanne at Dragonstone, among many others.  Why would there only be 4?  Is this more of a point at Davos' daring in getting young Edric out?  We have similar sorts of touchstones in this.  Could these people be far more notable than has been suggested here?  

Who delivered Dany?  I would think Dragonstone would have a maester in house, but not likely Marwyn.   I don't think Marwyn would have left her (or her brother's) side for a moment.  The simple magic of Targaryans would be enough to keep him interested.  Perhaps even Viserys' madness would have been of interest to him?  

I'm not sure of the timeline, but Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys packing the day after he attacked her as Jamie describes with horror.  She left in a hurry and presumably spent the duration of her pregnancy on Dragonstone.  They were no doubt kept in constant communication with Kings Landing and knew of all the major events.  But why the hell didn't they warrant a Kingsguard?  Rhaegar only had 3 with him?   Wasn't Jamie unceremoniousy ordered to return to Kings Landing to keep an eye on Rhaella and Viserys right after he was sworn in?   I thought he was assigned to their defense.  There had to be tons of gold on Dragonstone, the Targaryan herilooms and treasures from valyria at the very least.  I got the sense they were raided by their own people.   A quiet sacking if you will.  In the end Rhaella's children had her crown.   Being last in their possession I imagine it was the most valuable among their possessions which surely included a boatload of jewels and goblets and silver and gold?   

AH very nice call back to the day in musing about acopy of Signs and Portents...wonder what else might be among the writing in the Dragonstone library?  Spells?  Lineages?  Prophecy?  Juicy, Man.  

Blood and Fire tells us about Jaehaerys coming to some uneasy deal with the Sealord of Braavos over the dragon eggs Lady Elissa Farman appropriated from her friend, Rhaenys.  No Willem wouldn't just throw a dart at a map and say, Hey, I hear Braavos is lovely this time of year!"  Could it be there is some longstanding affiliation between Braavos and the Targaryans since the old incident with the eggs?  I left reading that thinking there was a deal, but so unsure about it.  For all it's worth. 

[Nathan Stark]

I think there is no chance in Seven Hells that Dany was ever in Bravos as a little girl, at least not in the house with the red door. Lemon trees don't grow in Bravos. It would also be extremely odd for the Bravosi to risk getting on the wrong side of the new regime in Westeros by harboring the Targaryen kids, especially since the Bravosi explicitly do not like Targaryens, dragons, or Valyria.

[DisneyDoc2425]

55 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

I think there is no chance in Seven Hells that Dany was ever in Bravos as a little girl, at least not in the house with the red door. Lemon trees don't grow in Bravos. It would also be extremely odd for the Bravosi to risk getting on the wrong side of the new regime in Westeros by harboring the Targaryen kids, especially since the Bravosi explicitly do not like Targaryens, dragons, or Valyria.

While trees are not native to Braavos wealthy people do have a variety of trees in their gardens which could include lemon trees. The Sealord of Braavos at the time of Robert's Rebellion was at least passively supportive of the Targaryen's (although he did not take an active side in the rebellion). Daenerys and Viserys were probably housed in his lavish Palace garden. Subsequently he even formally witnessed in Braavos the secret pact arranged by Ser William Derry and Oberlyn Martel {per Doran Martel) whereby Viserys would marry Doran's daughter Arianne in the future. The Martel's also secretly support a Targaryen restoration. 

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, DisneyDoc2425 said:

While trees are not native to Braavos wealthy people do have a variety of trees in their gardens which could include lemon trees. The Sealord of Braavos at the time of Robert's Rebellion was at least passively supportive of the Targaryen's (although he did not take an active side in the rebellion). Daenerys and Viserys were probably housed in his lavish Palace garden. Subsequently he even formally witnessed in Braavos the secret pact arranged by Ser William Derry and Oberlyn Martel {per Doran Martel) whereby Viserys would marry Doran's daughter Arianne in the future. The Martel's also secretly support a Targaryen restoration. 

Lemon trees are a variety of citrus tree which only grow in southern climates. Bravos is a city in Planetos's northern hemisphere, and is noted by both Arya and Sam to be cold, rainy and dark, absolutely not a hospitable climate for lemon trees to grow. Even within the story, characters like Anguy from the BwB are mocked when suggesting that lemons can grow anywhere north of Dorne. Even when we accept the possibilty of Bravosi nobles growing trees, and the marriage pact signed by Darry and Oberyn (which has some issues) it is still pretty much impossible for a lemon tree specifically to survive in Bravos.

[Universal Sword Donor]

56 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Lemon trees are a variety of citrus tree which only grow in southern climates. Bravos is a city in Planetos's northern hemisphere, and is noted by both Arya and Sam to be cold, rainy and dark, absolutely not a hospitable climate for lemon trees to grow. Even within the story, characters like Anguy from the BwB are mocked when suggesting that lemons can grow anywhere north of Dorne. Even when we accept the possibilty of Bravosi nobles growing trees, and the marriage pact signed by Darry and Oberyn (which has some issues) it is still pretty much impossible for a lemon tree specifically to survive in Bravos.

They do have greenhouses in planetos.

[Nathan Stark]

25 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

They do have greenhouses in planetos.

So why doesn't Dany remember a greenhouse then? It is a significant thing to forget. She only mentions a lemon tree outside her window, not a word about a greenhouse. No, I don't think she was ever in Bravos as a young child. She was somewhere far south.

[Universal Sword Donor]

30 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

So why doesn't Dany remember a greenhouse then? It is a significant thing to forget. She only mentions a lemon tree outside her window, not a word about a greenhouse. No, I don't think she was ever in Bravos as a young child. She was somewhere far south.

She was a small child and it's a fading memory, per her own words. She can easily be incorrect or mixing up memories. 

[Nathan Stark]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She was a small child and it's a fading memory, per her own words. She can easily be incorrect or mixing up memories. 

The same can be said about her memories of being in Bravos. In fact that is what I am arguing. Her memories of a lemon tree outside her home in Bravos are incorrect, likely because she was never there.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

Regarding the lemon tree, I'd recommend reading this post should one not be aware already.

The meaning of the tree may well be symbolic, rather than a hint of a geographical location.

[Bernie Mac]

Dragons are believable but a lemon tree in Braavos is not?

Given the seasonal long periods of summer plus the vast richness of the type of nobility that would take in the royal children of the continent of Westeros, it is not too hard to believe that some insanely wealthy kook might spend the time and resources to grow his own lemons much the same way as such an individual would import wild lions and tigers.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

She was a small child and it's a fading memory, per her own words. She can easily be incorrect or mixing up memories. 

True. A lemon tree, especially if young Dany had a similar sweet tooth as Sansa, is likely to stand out more as a memory than a glass house.

[dbergkvist]

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dragons are believable but a lemon tree in Braavos is not?

George has said that dragons exist but lemon trees in cold weather do not exist. There are basically three options:

1. George made a mistake. And rather than retroactively coming up with an ad hoc explanation for it as soon as possible and move on, he drags out this explanation for four books.
2. George thought that having the Sealord have the lemon tree in a greenhouse or similar is super witty so he keep hinting at this great revelation for four books.
3. George thought that having Dany not be who she thinks she is, or something along those lines, and having this be revealed only after several books increases the impact.

So I guess the question is: what type of author is George? Does he suck? Does he think readers who are reading his books carefully should be mocked by carefully planting clues that in the end have a completely mundane answer? My answer is that his competent author who writes interesting stories that reward careful readers, and therefore my conclusion is that the lemon tree points to something significant, that he has been hinting at all this time.