The Flight From Dragonstone

[Bernie Mac]

18 minutes ago, dbergkvist said:

George has said that dragons exist but lemon trees in cold weather do not exist. There are basically three options:

1. George made a mistake. And rather than retroactively coming up with an ad hoc explanation for it as soon as possible and move on, he drags out this explanation for four books.
2. George thought that having the Sealord have the lemon tree in a greenhouse or similar is super witty so he keep hinting at this great revelation for four books.
3. George thought that having Dany not be who she thinks she is, or something along those lines, and having this be revealed only after several books increases the impact.

 

There is a fourth option. Braavos is not as cold as you think it is or the seasonal years mean there is a period in the summer when Lemons can grow. Or as others have pointed out, glass gardens.

Do you have the quote from GRRM on lemon trees?

[dbergkvist]

51 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is a fourth option. Braavos is not as cold as you think it is or the seasonal years mean there is a period in the summer when Lemons can grow. Or as others have pointed out, glass gardens.

That would be option number two: the explanation is mundane and GRRM keeps hinting, for several books, of some big mystery that doesn't exist. And sure, GRRM might be that kind of author. I don't see why you even bother to read the books if you think this lowly of him, but I guess different people have different opinions of what is a worthwhile endeavor to spend their time on.

[CamiloRP]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dragons are believable but a lemon tree in Braavos is not?

I would believe the lemon tree if the evidence against it was just fans thinking 'it's a weird climate for a lemon tree'. But the story seems to hit us over the head with the fact that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos: Sharma says they don't grow in the Riverlands (and calls the notion foolish), Septon Meribald says the same thing about oranges, Littlefinger says he'll send to Dorne for more lemons, meaning they don't grow in the Vale either, and Harry Swift's guard calls Raff the Sweetling a fool for thinking there'd be lemon trees in Braavos. So yes, there could be a greenhouse, or a lemon tree brought from some southern climate, but if that's he case, why would the text keep repeating over and over that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos? 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I would believe the lemon tree if the evidence against it was just fans thinking 'it's a weird climate for a lemon tree'. But the story seems to hit us over the head with the fact that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos: Sharma says they don't grow in the Riverlands (and calls the notion foolish), Septon Meribald says the same thing about oranges, Littlefinger says he'll send to Dorne for more lemons, meaning they don't grow in the Vale either, and Harry Swift's guard calls Raff the Sweetling a fool for thinking there'd be lemon trees in Braavos. So yes, there could be a greenhouse, or a lemon tree brought from some southern climate, but if that's he case, why would the text keep repeating over and over that lemon trees don't grow in Braavos? 

I think it's possible that Dany and Viserys were split up and hidden in different places for a time.  Rather than keeping all your eggs in one basket, splitting them up makes it less likely they can both be killed at the same time.  I think Dany was hidden in Lys where her Targ looks would not be out of place in the population.  Hidden in plain sight in other words.  It's a place where fruit trees are grown and a southern climate would suit lemon trees.  She also remember the scents of the perfumes of home in the market.  Olfactory memories can be as strong as visual memories.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys VI

Dany smiled shyly. It was sweet to laugh. She felt half a girl again.

They wandered for half the morning. She saw a beautiful feathered cloak from the Summer Isles, and took it for a gift. In return, she gave the merchant a silver medallion from her belt. That was how it was done among the Dothraki. A birdseller taught a green-and-red parrot to say her name, and Dany laughed again, yet still refused to take him. What would she do with a green-and-red parrot in a khalasar? She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. When Doreah looked longingly at a fertility charm at a magician's booth, Dany took that too and gave it to the handmaid, thinking that now she should find something for Irri and Jhiqui as well.

Splitting them up also explains to me why the marriage contract between Viserys and Dorne didn't include Dany specifically.  It seems the Sealord of Braavos and the Martells didn't know anything about her.  Perhaps assuming the child died in birth.

So it could be that Dany was taken to Lys and Viserys was taken to Braavos.

I think the big house with the red door is the Great Red Temple on Lys.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

Davos threaded his way through the tables to a chair. In the days before his knighthood, he had often bought cargoes from Salladhor Saan. The Lyseni was a smuggler himself, as well as a trader, a banker, a notorious pirate, and the self-styled Prince of the Narrow Sea. When a pirate grows rich enough, they make him a prince. It had been Davos who had made the journey to Lys to recruit the old rogue to Lord Stannis's cause.

"You did not see the gods burn, my lord?" he asked.

"The red priests have a great temple on Lys. Always they are burning this and burning that, crying out to their R'hllor. They bore me with their fires. Soon they will bore King Stannis too, it is to be hoped." He seemed utterly unconcerned that someone might overhear him, eating his grapes and dribbling the seeds out onto his lip, flicking them off with a finger. "My Bird of Thousand Colors came in yesterday, good ser. She is not a warship, no, but a trader, and she paid a call on King's Landing. Are you sure you will not have a grape? Children go hungry in the city, it is said." He dangled the grapes before Davos and smiled.

Salladhor Saan may have been the smuggler used to get Willem Derry from Dragonstone to Essos.  He must have been paid a fortune.

[TheLastWolf]

And I thought lemons grew in Limca factories! 

[Mourning Star]

Lemon trees aside for a moment (although for the record I'm solidly in the camp of this being an intentional discrepancy indicating that the House with the Red Door was not in Braavos)...

I think the issue of the missing Maesters at the end of a war where baby swaps and secret parentages are already in play is wildly underappreciated as important details.

Children of ice and fire both get delivered by Maesters, just like other children. However, the Maesters of Winterfell and Dragonstone both appear to go missing during Robert's rebellion.

Walys Flowers was the maester of Winterfell, blamed by Lady Dustin to be the cause of Rickard's Southern Ambitions. We know Lewin only takes over after accompanying Cat to Winterfell (he delivered Rob in Riverrun).

Meanwhile we don't know who the maester of Dragonstone was, but Cressen appears to have taken over after accompanying Stannis there at the end of the war. 

Although I suppose this only leaves us with more questions

If I was to speculate wildly, I'd suggest that Walys Flowers was the great grey bear protector Dany remembers and conflates with the tales of Willem Darry told to her by her brother... while the Maester who fled with Viserys and the real Willem Darry is none other than Haldon Halfmaester.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

If I was to speculate wildly, I'd suggest that Walys Flowers was the great grey bear protector Dany remembers and conflates with the tales of Willem Darry told to her by her brother... while the Maester who fled with Viserys and the real Willem Darry is none other than Haldon Halfmaester.

I'm not sure Walys Flowers was involved in the flight from Dragonstone.  The solft hands Dany remembers are likely her nursemaid whom she has fogotten and conflates with Willem Derry.  I think Derry is with her at some point.

Haldon Halfmaester is probably a maester who is also in disguise and doesn't wear his chain.  I think "half-maester" has something to do with parentage.  His father was a maester.  We know this is true of Walys Flowers.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

The same can be said about her memories of being in Bravos. In fact that is what I am arguing. Her memories of a lemon tree outside her home in Bravos are incorrect, likely because she was never there.

Right I just disagree totally because it adds almost nothing to the story and is incredibly convoluted.

[Nathan Stark]

42 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right I just disagree totally because it adds almost nothing to the story and is incredibly convoluted.

Why? I think it adds a ton to the story and is fairly straightforward. Dany's memories of a lemon tree in Bravos are wrong because she was never there. This would indicate that she is either not who she believes she is, or that she was somewhere not in Bravos, both of which would be significant twists to her backstory with implications for her future ark. I also don't know why GRRM would keep on beating us over the head with this idea that lemon trees don't grow north of Dorne if he didn't intend for that to pay off somewhere.

[Universal Sword Donor]

48 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

Why? I think it adds a ton to the story and is fairly straightforward. Dany's memories of a lemon tree in Bravos are wrong because she was never there. This would indicate that she is either not who she believes she is, or that she was somewhere not in Bravos, both of which would be significant twists to her backstory with implications for her future ark. I also don't know why GRRM would keep on beating us over the head with this idea that lemon trees don't grow north of Dorne if he didn't intend for that to pay off somewhere.

Right I just disagree with all of that making sense or being worth anything. We already know that Dorne was willing to oppose Robert and marry Arianne to Viserys in rebellion. They then flipped it to Dany and Quentyn. That takes away any impetus for her to be retconned into living in Dorne. Viserys was old enough to recognize his sister when he was born and he considers a rightful Targaryen throughout their time together.

It she was in Lys or somewhere else, it makes little difference. We've already been introduced to the major characters and locations. Braavos might be significant because they also oppose slavery. Pentos is where Illyrio and his manse are where the plot was developed. Volantis has more or less already hinted that the slaves would support Dany. The other free cities have barely been mentioned and not seen. Her having been secretly kept elsewhere brings basically no implications to her future arc. 

GRRM might make something of it, he might be f*cking with certain fan groups, or it might be a big nothing burger. So with a myriad of half baked ideas with potential ramifications in one hand and a small child being an unreliable narrator in a series rife with unreliable narrators, I am going to choose the simpler option.

[Wolf's Bane]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:06 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive? 
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload. 
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? 

1)  Those who could return home in secret would have done so.  Robert and the Baratheons would have punished them if they had been caught.  It is possible for them to be alive.  It depends on how old they were during the flight.  I would love for Dany to meet these guys.

2)  Marwyn is as good a guess as any.  She is a child of destiny.  Her birth is one of the most important things to occur in the story because she is the protagonist and the story's main heroine.

3)  Enough to buy or rent an impressive home and live in it for Dany's early childhood.  They had servants too.  More money would have been nice and eased the discomfort of living abroad for Willem.

4)  Chances are very good.  Dragonstone would have a library.  That's a good place to start the search.

5)  Braavos is antislavery and the Targaryens are the most powerful family to share the same values.  It's not only Braavos who supports a Targaryen Restoration.  The Archon of Tyrosh was present during Dany's wedding. 

[LynnS]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:06 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?

I think Marwyn was the dwarf maester who served at the Fingers according to Tyrion:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

Tyrion Lannister had scant experience with other dwarfs. His lord father had not welcomed any reminders of his son's deformities, and such mummers as featured little folk in their troupes soon learned to stay away from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, at the risk of his displeasure. Growing up, Tyrion heard reports of a dwarf jester at the seat of the Dornish Lord Fowler, a dwarf maester in service on the Fingers, and a female dwarf amongst the silent sisters, but he never felt the least need to seek them out. Less reliable tales also reached his ears, of a dwarf witch who haunted a hill in the riverlands, and a dwarf whore in King's Landing renowned for coupling with dogs. His own sweet sister had told him of the last, even offering to find him a bitch in heat if he cared to try it out. When he asked politely if she were referring to herself, Cersei had thrown a cup of wine in his face. That was red, as I recall, and this is gold. Tyrion mopped at his face with a sleeve. His eyes still stung.

When Sam meets Marwyn he describes the physical characteristics of dwarfism:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

Given the nature of Littlefinger's injury from his duel with Brandon; cut from groin to breast bone; it would make sense that Marwyn would be sent to administer to Petyr given his area of expertise.  So that would have been just before Robert's Rebellion began. Not sure how long he would have stayed at the Fingers or when he started his mapping journey.   

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Marwyn was the dwarf maester who served at the Fingers according to Tyrion:

When Sam meets Marwyn he describes the physical characteristics of dwarfism:

Given the nature of Littlefinger's injury from his duel with Brandon; cut from groin to breast bone; it would make sense that Marwyn would be sent to administer to Petyr given his area of expertise.  So that would have been just before Robert's Rebellion began. Not sure how long he would have stayed at the Fingers or when he started his mapping journey.   

If Marwyn was a dwarf it would have been mentioned outright. Sorry, but I don't agree 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

If Marwyn was a dwarf it would have been mentioned outright. Sorry, but I don't agree 

Not necessarily. Sam doesn't use the word dwarf but he describes the characteristics of dwarfism.  It's Tyrion who says he has heard of a dwarf maester.  I think you have to put two and two together here.

[TheLastWolf]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Not necessarily. Sam doesn't use the word dwarf but he describes the characteristics of dwarfism.  It's Tyrion who says he has heard of a dwarf maester.  I think you have to put two and two together here.

All dwarfs in the series have been said so outright and it's accurate given the medieval backdrop and ridicule. A2D then 

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

All dwarfs in the series have been said so outright and it's accurate given the medieval backdrop and ridicule. A2D then 

If I say that someone has white skin and red eyes but don't use the word albino; does that mean they are not albino?  Bloodraven is never labelled that way and yet we know that he is by description.

The question you should be asking is: why does Martin obscure the fact that Marwyn is a dwarf by not using the word itself, by not making it obvious.  Martin's wife has said that he doesn't do obvious.  Here's an example of that.

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

If I say that someone has white skin and red eyes but don't use the word albino; does that mean they are not albino?  Bloodraven is never labelled that way and yet we know that he is by description.

The question you should be asking is: why does Martin obscure the fact that Marwyn is a dwarf.

I think Marwyn might be skagosi or half-Ibennese. Both of these seem related to each other and their description is closer to Tolkien's dwarfs than to Tyrion. The people from Skagos define themselves as stoneborn.

[Annalee]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:06 AM, Pontius Pilate said:

Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men took their king, Viserys Targaryen and his sister, Princess Daenerys, from Dragonstone before the arrival of Stannis Baratheon.  The loyal men saved the royal children from certain death.  We know a lot about Ser Willem but nothing about the four loyal men.  I made a list of my own questions about them and the other servants who may have been on Dragonstone at that time. 

1. What became of the four?  From which houses were they from?  Are any of them still alive? 
2. Who delivered Daenerys Targaryen?  Was it Archmaester Marwyn?  He said he cannot be trusted by the Citadel.  Was it because he helped the royal children escape?
3. How much gold were they able to take?  Why didn't Aerys send more gold with Queen Rhaella?  I would have sent a boatload. 
4. The likelihood of a copy of "Signs and Portents" still hidden on the island.
5. Why Braavos?  Willem would not randomly choose a destination.  I would hazard a guess and say he may have arranged it all in advance with the Sealord of Braavos.  What does the Sealord owe House Targaryen? 

I don't know what became of the four.  We never learned of the maester who delivered Dany.  He could be Marwyn.  I would like for it to be so.  What an awesome connection.  His witch of a trainee witnessed the rebirth of Azor Ahai and the dragons.  While Marwyn was there for Dany's birth. 

 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think Marwyn might be skagosi or half-Ibennese. Both of these seem related to each other and their description is closer to Tolkien's dwarfs than to Tyrion. The people from Skagos define themselves as stoneborn.

It could be.  I suspect that he is hairy as well.   His head and hands are too large for his body which is short and squat.  His head and hands are actually normal size but in relation to his body, they seem too large.  I suspect he is somewhat taller than Tyrion.  

The other thing we know about Marwyn is that he opens bodies to study the internal organs.  Who better than Marwyn to attend to Littlefinger after being sliced open from groin to breastbone by Brandon.

[Bernie Mac]

17 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Why? I think it adds a ton to the story and is fairly straightforward. Dany's memories of a lemon tree in Bravos are wrong because she was never there. This would indicate that she is either not who she believes she is, or that she was somewhere not in Bravos, both of which would be significant twists to her backstory with implications for her future ark. I also don't know why GRRM would keep on beating us over the head with this idea that lemon trees don't grow north of Dorne if he didn't intend for that to pay off somewhere.

But we know she was there, Oberyn and Willem Darry made the secret pact in Braavos.