NBA 2021

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, Rhom said:

That was my first thought too.  This can’t be what he envisioned.  Say what you will about Kyrie and Durant, they do fit together.  But for the life of me I can’t imagine what Harden brings.

I can’t even figure out how Harden is good for that matter.  He doesn’t look like an chiseled elite athlete.  There’s no blinding speed.  He can shoot from outside, but lots of unathletic guys can do that and aren’t good enough for the league.   

Durant can fit with any other star player. And of the three, he's probably the easiest to get along with. We give him shit for having burner accounts on social media, but really, that's actually kind of understandable. Outside of that I don't really see issues with the guy. People just don't like that he took the easy path, but really, almost everyone would in their own professional career, so the complaints are about as hypocritical as Congressional Republicans were today.

Harden and Kyrie on the same team is what makes no sense. Their skill sets are nearly identical. And personality wise, I can't see them getting along. I would not want to be teammates with Harden, but that's more about work ethic than anything else. Imagine what he'd be if he worked like Butler instead of being known for spending more time at strip clubs than at practice. Beyond that, while Harden may not be a guy I'd want to spend time with, I'm not sure he's truly toxic.

Kyrie is. If you wrote out a list of the top 20-25 players and asked who would you want the least, it would be him and it's not even close. Kyrie is self-destructive. He's sitting out games just because. He's behaving like a clown. And while scrolling through Twitter I saw from a credible source (though I must admit I can't remember who) that he's not happy with the Nash hire and that he and KD's relationship is already collapsing. Most people don't like individuals who carry themselves as if they're the smartest person in the room, but he does it while being a complete idiot. I heard an example a few weeks back that captures Kyrie perfectly to me. He's the college freshman who takes philosophy in the fall and comes back home on winter break acting like he just got his PhD. 

If I'm the Nets, I trade Kyrie for a really good defender and some depth while maybe getting some picks back (debatable since they're all about winning now). 

[Proudfeet]

25 minutes ago, Rhom said:

That was my first thought too.  This can’t be what he envisioned.  Say what you will about Kyrie and Durant, they do fit together.  But for the life of me I can’t imagine what Harden brings.

I can’t even figure out how Harden is good for that matter.  He doesn’t look like an chiseled elite athlete.  There’s no blinding speed.  He can shoot from outside, but lots of unathletic guys can do that and aren’t good enough for the league.   

Harden's selling point is his ability to hit max acceleration and brakes to keep defenders off balance. And a lot of times its not what you have but when and how you use it that makes the difference. 

I think the best way forward for the Nets is to maximise the time that they can have two of them on the court rather than trying to play all three of them together. Anyway, diminishing returns from having multiple ball handlers with just one ball aside, who is playing center for them? DeAndre? Maybe if he was five years younger. KD? He probably could do it if he needs to but they'd be sacrificing the other parts of his game. I think they needed to keep Allen instead of Harris.

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Kyrie is. If you wrote out a list of the top 20-25 players and asked who would you want the least, it would be him and it's not even close.

I'd like to remind you that Kyrie is one of higher ranking guys on the players association. No idea how that shit works. It could be because nobody else wants to do the job and whoever volunteers gets it or he was actually voted in by the players.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I'd like to remind you that Kyrie is one of higher ranking guys on the players association. No idea how that shit works. It could be because nobody else wants to do the job and whoever volunteers gets it or he was actually voted in by the players.

IIRC he's a VP only behind Paul and a couple other dudes, and yeah, my assumption has been that nobody else wanted the position. I'd love to see footage of those two going over things because CP3 has to want to punch him in the face all the time.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Ya know @Relic, for all your complaining about how the Knicks suck, just know my team sucks a lot more. 

[Wilbur]

This would have been an amazing season for Game of Zones.

Say what you will about Harden's nearly unwatchable style of play (and I do), he works REALLY hard in the offseason.  He practices at the local facility where my girls' team practices, and he goes hard for significant lengths of time, practicing the kinetic elements of  motion and the stop-and-start ability that make him a successful scorer.

[Relic]

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Ya know @Relic, for all your complaining about how the Knicks suck, just know my team sucks a lot more. 

eh?

[Maithanet]

People have pointed out that any two of Durant/Harden/Irving is plenty to carry the offense, and so you can rotate those guys and focus on defense-only pieces to fill out the roster before playoff time.  But I think this is only partly true.

Durant + either Harden or Irving is a good fit, and very challenging on a defense.  Harden and Irving without Durant on the floor is fine offensively (although I think it'll mostly be "taking turns" rather than really working well together).  But defensively I feel like Harden + Irving without Durant is going to be so bad that they really can't afford to put out that lineup much.  Harden was good at post defense in Houston (he is very strong), and Houston rebuilt their entire team to help him defend the post more often.  In order to make that work, they had to have other really versatile defenders on the court, like Tucker, Ariza, etc.  The Nets don't have that (other than Durant).  The only halfway decent center they have is Jordan, and he's not nearly the defensive athlete he used to be. 

I know I'm probably going overboard, because the NBA is such a talent driven league, and the Nets have talent.  But I think this team is going to be a disaster unless they can really work some magic with their remaining trade tools.  They need defense, defense and defense. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Durant, Harden and Westbrook couldn't pull it off years younger, I don't see how older Durant, Harden and Kyrie have a better chance?

It was mentioned earlier there's only one basketball at a time on the court and good luck getting that one ball out of heroball Hardens mitts.

Man Olapido(sp) is the one who really got screwed in this transaction though.

[Maithanet]

22 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Durant, Harden and Westbrook couldn't pull it off years younger, I don't see how older Durant, Harden and Kyrie have a better chance?

Don't really feel like that is a fair comparison, as those guys were not just younger, but young.  Harden was in just his third season when the Thunder went to the 2012 Finals, and he won 6th man of the year award.  Obviously that's very different from his MVP season.  But unfortunately, the Thunder never got a chance to see if Durant/Westbrook/Harden could grow into a champion, since Harden was traded that offseason. 

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Don't really feel like that is a fair comparison, as those guys were not just younger, but young.  Harden was in just his third season when the Thunder went to the 2012 Finals, and he won 6th man of the year award.  Obviously that's very different from his MVP season.  But unfortunately, the Thunder never got a chance to see if Durant/Westbrook/Harden could grow into a champion, since Harden was traded that offseason. 

Yeah, it still is absolutely insane to me that they broke that trio up the year they made the fucking Finals.  Sure, they lost, but that was to a Heat team with two of the best five players in the game and a talented supporting cast that included at least one other All-Star.  You don't break up three of the best young players in the game after a single Finals loss.

We saw how short that Heat window was.  If the Thunder had kept those three together, they could have ruled the West for years.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Don't really feel like that is a fair comparison, as those guys were not just younger, but young.  Harden was in just his third season when the Thunder went to the 2012 Finals, and he won 6th man of the year award.  Obviously that's very different from his MVP season.  But unfortunately, the Thunder never got a chance to see if Durant/Westbrook/Harden could grow into a champion, since Harden was traded that offseason. 

You're right to point out the age differences, but the comparison does work in another way. One of the main reasons Harden was the sixth man was because he and Westbrook were a bad fit at times. Their games didn't compliment one another's, and IIRC their splits were pretty noticeable when one was on the bench verses when they ere both on the court. And that's probably going to be a big problem with the Nets. 

I just wish Harden had gone to the Bucks, and given what they paid for Holiday, they would have only had to have thrown in a little more (probably White Dante) and they still could have kept Middleton.

[Slurktan]

8 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I just wish Harden had gone to the Bucks, and given what they paid for Holiday, they would have only had to have thrown in a little more (probably White Dante) and they still could have kept Middleton.

Except, you know, Giannis doesn't like him.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

41 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

Except, you know, Giannis doesn't like him.

Well that would be a problem then.

[Proudfeet]

10 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I know I'm probably going overboard, because the NBA is such a talent driven league, and the Nets have talent.  But I think this team is going to be a disaster unless they can really work some magic with their remaining trade tools.  They need defense, defense and defense. 

What's a disaster for them? Championship or bust? Second round exit? Miss the playoffs? 

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Don't really feel like that is a fair comparison, as those guys were not just younger, but young.  Harden was in just his third season when the Thunder went to the 2012 Finals, and he won 6th man of the year award.  Obviously that's very different from his MVP season.  But unfortunately, the Thunder never got a chance to see if Durant/Westbrook/Harden could grow into a champion, since Harden was traded that offseason. 

Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka could have made it if not for Klay saving the Warriors. Ibaka is clearly not as good as the other three, but he was still key to the team.

4 hours ago, briantw said:

Yeah, it still is absolutely insane to me that they broke that trio up the year they made the fucking Finals.  Sure, they lost, but that was to a Heat team with two of the best five players in the game and a talented supporting cast that included at least one other All-Star.  You don't break up three of the best young players in the game after a single Finals loss.

We saw how short that Heat window was.  If the Thunder had kept those three together, they could have ruled the West for years.

They almost did regardless. Its just that Durant and Westbrook took turns to get hurt and they never really had a full team after. Well, all the Nets need to do now is trade Irving for Westbrook and Harris for Ibaka. They can keep DeAndre to play for Perkins and we can reunite the Thunder again. 

[Maithanet]

 

1 minute ago, Proudfeet said:

What's a disaster for them? Championship or bust? Second round exit? Miss the playoffs?

If they don't at least win the East in the next two years, that is a disaster.  If they lose in the Finals, it's disappointing, but not a disaster. 

[Proudfeet]

1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

 

If they don't at least win the East in the next two years, that is a disaster.  If they lose in the Finals, it's disappointing, but not a disaster. 

Well, in that case, its probably going to be a disaster. I'm placing my bets on the Sixers this year. Then again, I've also thought that they'd make it last year but look how that turned out. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

Well, in that case, its probably going to be a disaster. I'm placing my bets on the Sixers this year. Then again, I've also thought that they'd make it last year but look how that turned out. 

In fairness, if everything else remained the same, they probably win the title in 2019 if Kawhii's shot doesn't bounce in and they win in OT.

[Rhom]

 

[Proudfeet]

33 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

In fairness, if everything else remained the same, they probably win the title in 2019 if Kawhii's shot doesn't bounce in and they win in OT.

2019 isn't 2020 and there's no guarantee that they'd win the match up against the Bucks.

And speaking of 2020, even if Horford was a better player than Redick in general, Redick was who they actually needed. Sum of the whole vs sum of the parts and all that. They have Seth to do Redick's role now though so maybe they'll actually make it this time.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

25 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

2019 isn't 2020 and there's no guarantee that they'd win the match up against the Bucks.

And speaking of 2020, even if Horford was a better player than Redick in general, Redick was who they actually needed. Sum of the whole vs sum of the parts and all that. They have Seth to do Redick's role now though so maybe they'll actually make it this time.

I know, but the point is they've had the parts needed for a few years now to be a championship team. And I agree about Redick. Never understood why they didn't keep him while bring in a nice but very redundant player in Horford. Seth should be a good replacement given he has the second highest 3 point shooting percentage of all time.