NBA 2021

[Relic]

[briantw]

18 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not necessarily. Injuries and a bogus ejection cost the Warriors the title in '16, so you can't use that result to argue the Cavs would have won in '15 too if they were healthy.

The Warriors' top three players were healthy.  They lost Bogut, a role-player, and I think Iggy was hobbled.  That in no way compared to the Cavs losing their second and third best players in 2015.  If the Warriors lost Klay or Green in 2016, you might have an argument.  But those two were healthy.  LeBron took two games from them in 2015 with Dellevadova as the second best player on the team.  You're honestly saying they wouldn't have won that with a healthy Kyrie?

And blaming Green's suspension is a joke.  He was suspended in game five.  The Warriors still had two more closeout games, including a home game seven, to defeat the Cavs and couldn't get it done.  As much as they want to cry about the suspension, it was ultimately meaningless.  Green also deserved it.  He hit LeBron in the nuts.  Sure, LeBron baited him, but you've gotta be smarter than that in the Finals.  The Cavs were without Love for a game and a half during those same finals due to a concussion, but strangely this is never brought up.

Anyone acting like the Warriors had bad luck during their run is delusional, and all their serious injuries happened in the final year, so they don't really matter to what happened the previous four years.  And I don't think those injuries were bad luck.  They were the direct result of several years of long postseason runs.  Guys just broke down.  Hell, even LeBron broke down after that and missed most of a year to injury, and he's the most durable superstar player I've ever seen.

[Relic]

Green didnt just hit LeBron in the nuts. He was hitting EVERYONE in the nuts, and it finally caught up to him. So fuck him, and fuck using that as an excuse for losing. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Injuries, like referee complaints, are at the end of the day, excuses.

Eta: Not all players condition at the same level either so some of them are chronic injure prone guys, while some seem to never go down. Some players simply put in more work and practice and our simply better players that avoid injury better. There's a myriad of reasons but at the end of the day officiating and injuries are just excuses for losing.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 hours ago, briantw said:

The Warriors' top three players were healthy.  They lost Bogut, a role-player, and I think Iggy was hobbled.  That in no way compared to the Cavs losing their second and third best players in 2015.  If the Warriors lost Klay or Green in 2016, you might have an argument.  But those two were healthy.  LeBron took two games from them in 2015 with Dellevadova as the second best player on the team.  You're honestly saying they wouldn't have won that with a healthy Kyrie?

Well there's some debate to your first point. Curry wasn't out, but he was clearly hurt. That's not the same as losing Kyrie and Love, but it's not nothing. And while Bogut and Iggy are not on the same level, they were key losses. Bogut was their only rim protector and LeBron feasted at the rim after he got hurt, and Iggy was the main guy guarding LeBron, so him being hobbled played a role in LeBron's explosion in the last three games. He did get Finals MVP the previous year for his defense on LeBron.

Also, Delly wasn't really their second best player. He averaged 7.5/3/3. We just talked about him a lot because he's a scrappy white guy.

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And blaming Green's suspension is a joke.  He was suspended in game five.  The Warriors still had two more closeout games, including a home game seven, to defeat the Cavs and couldn't get it done.  As much as they want to cry about the suspension, it was ultimately meaningless.  Green also deserved it.  He hit LeBron in the nuts.  Sure, LeBron baited him, but you've gotta be smarter than that in the Finals.  The Cavs were without Love for a game and a half during those same finals due to a concussion, but strangely this is never brought up.

Well I disagree on Green deserving a suspension. He deserved to get suspended for kick Adams in the junk, even if it was really an accident (probably wasn't). Green gave a half ass swing and barely made any contact as a reaction. This wasn't one of Chris Paul's premeditated wrestling low blows. And LeBron instigated the situation. People always seem to forget that LeBron was wilding out towards the end of that game. 

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Anyone acting like the Warriors had bad luck during their run is delusional, and all their serious injuries happened in the final year, so they don't really matter to what happened the previous four years.  And I don't think those injuries were bad luck.  They were the direct result of several years of long postseason runs.  Guys just broke down.  Hell, even LeBron broke down after that and missed most of a year to injury, and he's the most durable superstar player I've ever seen.

So in a five year run, when they were 100% they won and when they weren't they lost, and that's being delusional? The Warriors would have swept Toronto with a healthy team, and I think they may have still won before Klay tore his ACL. The Warriors were as dominate as any team ever when they were healthy. You can disagree if you want, but to me it seems obvious that injuries more than anything else defeated them. Yes LeBron had an amazing three game run in 2016, but to circle back to the start, that did also occur when their defenders were out or injured (well, Klay wasn't, but I don't recall Klay guarding LeBron outside of switches).

[Proudfeet]

8 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Injuries, like referee complaints, are at the end of the day, excuses.

Eta: Not all players condition at the same level either so some of them are chronic injure prone guys, while some seem to never go down. Some players simply put in more work and practice and our simply better players that avoid injury better. There's a myriad of reasons but at the end of the day officiating and injuries are just excuses for losing.

Eh, I think its quite a bit more than excuses. Its a level playing field in that those are largely uncontrollable factors but you can't deny that some teams get lucky/unlucky breaks. 

Also, implying putting more work into conditioning would have saved players from injuries is kind of offensive. Some of them? Sure. But there's also a lot of other factors like luck, physique, medical staff available and such that are outside of their control.

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 when they were 100% they won and when they weren't they lost, and that's being delusional?

You could say that for so many teams. Just take the first two years of your example. Warriors beat an injured Cavs team. Cavs beat an injured Warriors team. 100% win rate for the healthy team. What a surprise. 

Anyway, if David Lee wasn't injured, Draymond would have been stuck on the bench and washed out of the league and the Warriors dynasty wouldn't have begun. And you can't prove me wrong. Its a fact that Lee was the preferred starter. Kerr said so himself. Warriors get 0 championships if they were 100%. 

[briantw]

21 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

You could say that for so many teams. Just take the first two years of your example. Warriors beat an injured Cavs team. Cavs beat an injured Warriors team. 100% win rate for the healthy team. What a surprise. 

And the injuries to those two teams weren't identical either.  The Cavs were down their second and third best players.  The Warriors were down their fourth and maybe sixth best players?  

Regardless, if Kyrie doesn't get hurt I think the Cavs win in 2015.  Love being out hurt too but not as much.  Kyrie going down in like game one was a killer. The fact that LeBron won two games without Kyrie and Love is a testament to just how good he is. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

57 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

You could say that for so many teams. Just take the first two years of your example. Warriors beat an injured Cavs team. Cavs beat an injured Warriors team. 100% win rate for the healthy team. What a surprise. 

Just like how the Lakers got an easy chip this year against the Heat.

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Anyway, if David Lee wasn't injured, Draymond would have been stuck on the bench and washed out of the league and the Warriors dynasty wouldn't have begun. And you can't prove me wrong. Its a fact that Lee was the preferred starter. Kerr said so himself. Warriors get 0 championships if they were 100%. 

This is legit hilarious, and not because you're wrong. 

33 minutes ago, briantw said:

And the injuries to those two teams weren't identical either.  The Cavs were down their second and third best players.  The Warriors were down their fourth and maybe sixth best players?  

Again, their best player was hurt and key defensive players were hurt. You keep shrugging this off like it's nothing. Look at them now. 

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Regardless, if Kyrie doesn't get hurt I think the Cavs win in 2015.  Love being out hurt too but not as much.  Kyrie going down in like game one was a killer. The fact that LeBron won two games without Kyrie and Love is a testament to just how good he is. 

You rate Kyrie higher than I do. I think the Warriors still win in six with him. Love is what complicates it, but you know I think he's terribly overrated. 

[Proudfeet]

39 minutes ago, briantw said:

And the injuries to those two teams weren't identical either.  The Cavs were down their second and third best players.  The Warriors were down their fourth and maybe sixth best players?  

Regardless, if Kyrie doesn't get hurt I think the Cavs win in 2015.  Love being out hurt too but not as much.  Kyrie going down in like game one was a killer. The fact that LeBron won two games without Kyrie and Love is a testament to just how good he is. 

Its not even about that. Its the rationale used. You could say that for practically every team as long as they haven't lost at full strength. You could say that the Lakers should have won from 2008 onwards because Bynum is perpetually injured. They won even without Bynum!111!!!. 

And its not without basis. Losing players hurt. But saying could have won is very different from should have won or would have won. And its worse and hypocritical when you don't afford the same consideration to their opponents. 

Personally, I think that the Warriors would still have the better team but could have been exposed by their lack of composure in the finals. Its not just LeBron being fantastic that they won two games. 

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is legit hilarious, and not because you're wrong.  

It's also an impression of what I think your logic is. 

[Maithanet]

Durant has also explicitly said he wouldn't have gone to the Warriors if they won in 2016.  

Plus the Warriors winning the title in 2015 if every team was healthy is a joke.  Good chance they don't even make the Finals.

[briantw]

I don't know if the Cavs are good, but this is the first time since LeBron left again that they were actually entertaining to watch.  Garland looks fantastic and Sexton keeps getting better.  They're doing this weird thing where they actually pass the ball to each other.  Never seen it before, but kind of like it.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 12/24/2020 at 9:47 PM, Maithanet said:

Plus the Warriors winning the title in 2015 if every team was healthy is a joke.  Good chance they don't even make the Finals.

Yeah, because the same basic team won 73 games the following season. It's such a joke that they won the title.

I still find the Warriors hate odd. Brian at least has a biased excuse. 

1 hour ago, briantw said:

I don't know if the Cavs are good, but this is the first time since LeBron left again that they were actually entertaining to watch.  Garland looks fantastic and Sexton keeps getting better.  They're doing this weird thing where they actually pass the ball to each other.  Never seen it before, but kind of like it.

Wolves seem to be in the same space. Idk if they're good, but they're fun and are wrecking the Jazz right now despite KAT being terrible. The top pick has looked awesome.
 

[Argonath Diver]

Well, a new front office and Billy Donovan hasn't done a fucking thing to make the Bulls not a complete embarrassment of a franchise. So that sucks. Hey, we're three years way. Again. for eight years.

Where's my damn bandwagon team? Denver for the fourth or so year in a row, I guess. Jokic is like Jim Gaffigan. His crafty old man game is somehow amazing in a league that passed it by, just like Gaffigan's Dad Jokes are all he does, but damnit it's made him a star. And Murray is pretty much my guy LaVine, only on a team with other people who aren't atrocious.

[Proudfeet]

5 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Yeah, because the same basic team won 73 games the following season. It's such a joke that they won the title.

I favour the Warriors too but that logic is just stupid. Players and teams are not stagnant. The Warriors got a confidence boost in winning the title and it was apparent in their play especially in Curry who went supernova until he got injured. And that 73 win team almost lost to the Thunder who missed the playoffs the previous year because Durant was injured. 

Its not like their 60+ wins that year were anything to sneeze at and would have made a better argument. Not that regular season wins by themselves are a good indicator, mind. Just look at the Bucks the last two years. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

5 hours ago, Proudfeet said:

I favour the Warriors too but that logic is just stupid. Players and teams are not stagnant. The Warriors got a confidence boost in winning the title and it was apparent in their play especially in Curry who went supernova until he got injured. And that 73 win team almost lost to the Thunder who missed the playoffs the previous year because Durant was injured. 

Its not like their 60+ wins that year were anything to sneeze at and would have made a better argument. Not that regular season wins by themselves are a good indicator, mind. Just look at the Bucks the last two years. 

No, it's really not. Teams build confidence, but the first iteration of the Warriors was rather consistent, and thank you for pointing out that there was a key injury in 2016, which again, upends the notion that the Warriors wouldn't have fivepeated. 

And I wouldn't compare the Bucks to the Warriors. So far they're more like Dirk's Mavs. We'll see if they finally break through, but the East is a lot better and the Lakers are the clear favs.

They'll probably destroy the Wolves tonight, especially if KAT's hand is fucked.

[Proudfeet]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, it's really not. Teams build confidence, but the first iteration of the Warriors was rather consistent, and thank you for pointing out that there was a key injury in 2016, which again, upends the notion that the Warriors wouldn't have fivepeated. 

And I wouldn't compare the Bucks to the Warriors. So far they're more like Dirk's Mavs. We'll see if they finally break through, but the East is a lot better and the Lakers are the clear favs.

They'll probably destroy the Wolves tonight, especially if KAT's hand is fucked.

Yes it is. You're using the logic that because a team got better the following year, they are now as good in both years. Its complete nonsense. As I said, you could build a good case on the first year. But not by using the following year as evidence. Your brushing aside other teams injuries is complete rubbish as well. Other teams players get injured = Warriors win anyway. Warriors get injured = tragedy, injustice, key players. And all based on your say so.

You're doing the same thing with regular season success now too. Warriors win 73 games. That's due to their might. Other teams win 60+ games, well, they are just paper tigers. Which might be true, but don't point to regular season success then. Use the same damn measure.

Edit - I just realised I brought up the other teams. But you should still come up with something more substantive than they're different.

[briantw]

Kind of related, but watching Curry out there getting his ass whooped by 70 points in the Warriors' first two games this year has been fun as hell for me.  Welcome to life as an NBA doormat.

[Argonath Diver]

2 hours ago, briantw said:

Kind of related, but watching Curry out there getting his ass whooped by 70 points in the Warriors' first two games this year has been fun as hell for me.  Welcome to life as an NBA doormat.

I expect the Warriors will be a story tonight. I think its very likely that they torch the atrocious Bulls defense, especially Curry. This is a good opportunity for him to look like Vintage Steph. On the other hand, if the lowly Bulls manage to pull their heads out of their collective ass and get a win, the narrative that Curry is on rapid downward regression will gain more steam.

[Rhom]

Growing interest in Knicks fandom in the Bluegrass state.

 

[briantw]

Cavs currently on pace to go 72-0.  

Also, seeing Javale McGee in a veteran leadership role is the weirdest shit ever.