Mark O'Kane Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 They both served under a maniac who burned innocents alive, raped his wife and was just generally an evil man. They chose to stick to their Kingsguard vows rather than their knightly vows which was to protect the weak and uphold justice. They didn't do the right thing, they didn't want to besmirch themselves the way Ned did when he claimed Jon was his son to save his life at the expense of his reputation. Selmy is worse in my eyes than Jaime, swapping from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany. He should have been executed or sent to the Wall, and should never have accepted Robert's offer and is a hypocrite for calling Jaime a false brother considering he swapped sides before Jaime did. Yes Dayne fought the Kingswood Brotherhood and Selmy killed Maelys and rescued Aerys but they only chose honour when it suited them and turning a blind eye to Aerys is unforgivable - change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, Mark O'Kane said: They both served under a maniac who burned innocents alive, raped his wife and was just generally an evil man. They chose to stick to their Kingsguard vows rather than their knightly vows which was to protect the weak and uphold justice. They didn't do the right thing, they didn't want to besmirch themselves the way Ned did when he claimed Jon was his son to save his life at the expense of his reputation. Selmy is worse in my eyes than Jaime, swapping from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany. He should have been executed or sent to the Wall, and should never have accepted Robert's offer and is a hypocrite for calling Jaime a false brother considering he swapped sides before Jaime did. Yes Dayne fought the Kingswood Brotherhood and Selmy killed Maelys and rescued Aerys but they only chose honour when it suited them and turning a blind eye to Aerys is unforgivable - change my mind. You’re on point. One of the big points made in the books is how honour, like power, is just a shadow on the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Ser Barristan has a reputation for being very honorable and just. Yes he worked for Aerys, but from what he's told us the guy was rather sane when he first took the job. You might blame the guy for being blind to his vows, but my guess is he was placing his hopes on the future in Rhaegar. I mean in the right looking glass you can view Ned as a villain as well, despite the guy living as honorable of a life as he could possibly have, given the crap that was thrown at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davjos Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 You serve the office, not the man. also every character likes them which makes them likeable to the reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion1991 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said: They both served under a maniac who burned innocents alive, raped his wife and was just generally an evil man. They chose to stick to their Kingsguard vows rather than their knightly vows which was to protect the weak and uphold justice. They didn't do the right thing, they didn't want to besmirch themselves the way Ned did when he claimed Jon was his son to save his life at the expense of his reputation. Selmy is worse in my eyes than Jaime, swapping from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany. He should have been executed or sent to the Wall, and should never have accepted Robert's offer and is a hypocrite for calling Jaime a false brother considering he swapped sides before Jaime did. Yes Dayne fought the Kingswood Brotherhood and Selmy killed Maelys and rescued Aerys but they only chose honour when it suited them and turning a blind eye to Aerys is unforgivable - change my mind. See here’s the thing and it’s the same issue I have with Jorah joining the Nights Watch and “restoring his honour”; it’s actually selfish. You’re trying to win a popularity contest. Barristan only goes to join Dany because he wants redemption and Joffrey spurned him. But then he gets there and because he plays the act of the humble Knight we’re supposed to like him? It’s a sham. He has no actual loyalty to Dany. He’s loyal to himself, as he says when he admits to watching Dany for signs of madness as a precondition for joining up. He’s just more polite about it. If he found out Aegon is a thing he’d jump ship without question. Plus, as an aside. He tries to hold it against Jorah that he fought with Robert at the Trident. So, you’re going to judge him for siding against the Mad King, but then deciding to save the exile Queen, abandoning a dream of home because he realised she’s amazing versus siding with a madman, taking the pardon and then only jumping ship when you were kicked out the country club? Which Knight is actually following the more honourable path here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Mark O'Kane said: They both served under a maniac who burned innocents alive, raped his wife and was just generally an evil man. They chose to stick to their Kingsguard vows rather than their knightly vows which was to protect the weak and uphold justice. They didn't do the right thing, they didn't want to besmirch themselves the way Ned did when he claimed Jon was his son to save his life at the expense of his reputation. Selmy is worse in my eyes than Jaime, swapping from Aerys to Robert to Joffrey to Dany. He should have been executed or sent to the Wall, and should never have accepted Robert's offer and is a hypocrite for calling Jaime a false brother considering he swapped sides before Jaime did. Yes Dayne fought the Kingswood Brotherhood and Selmy killed Maelys and rescued Aerys but they only chose honour when it suited them and turning a blind eye to Aerys is unforgivable - change my mind. "Why did you take the oath?" she demanded. "Why don the white cloak if you meant to betray all it stood for?" Why? What could he say that she might possibly understand? "I was a boy. Fifteen. It was a great honor for one so young." ASOS Jamie II Oooooh, I like this! I've read all the posts above and was just posting about Barristan the Bold. Like @Davjos, I think it was more the job they were loyal to over anything else. (Though I suspect Arthur Dayne had a lot more to do with Rhaegar than any other royal.) The Sword of the Morning and Selmy were knights of reknown. Heroes. Rock Stars of their time. Not sure how old Dayne was when he enlisted, but Selmy was 10 years old when he began campaigning for an appointment to the Kingsguard. Jamie was 15 and noted as the youngest. Puts Arthur in at at the very least 17 in my book. Truth is we don't know that there actually was a chivalric code in Westeros or any king's service. We know how the kingsguard was formed. Visenya wanted her brother/husband/king protected. That included complete loyalty as well as martial prowess as I recall. The loyalty would be to the king and his service, not neccessarily like the Knights of The Round Table. There are a lot of clues to the whole Knight Hero Kingsguard experience in Jamie's POV. Jamie become disillusioned yet remained in service. Arthur Dayne died for what he believed in, odd as that may be to us. I wonder what Barristan really did in going to Dany? I think his job was the only thing he ever wanted or imagined or hoped for. Every ounce of self value he had depended upon his service as a knight sworn to protect a king. Barristan Selmy was such a big deal, the enemy Robert Baratheon, had his own maester see to this hero's wounds on the battlefield. It's entirely possible that Barristan saw the opportunity to continue the only thing he cared for in Robert's service. To be fair, he was pretty much retired from the KG by fricken smirking Lannisters and he made his objections well known. I think this trek to Dany was a little like serving Robert--a chance to keep it going and to continue the self worth. I don't think that's selfish. The man has foregone everything a normal man strives for to be a royal knight. What else did he have, really? It's not like he had the personality or work ethic to join a sell sword company. Could be he would become a house knight or sworn sword for a high noble both mighty steps down from the position he was just fired from. I don't blame him for trying to do better. Could even be some revenge in seeking out Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annalee Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 I love Barristan Selmy. It's never too late for an old man to realize his mistake and this one did. He travels halfway across the world to find a ruler who is worthy of serving and found her. I don't have an opinion on Arthur Dayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broken one Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Selmy got the white cloak from Jaehaerys II. For years Aerys II seemed to be pretty normal. Got to understand ethos of kingsguard's member. Good old Jaehaerys I sent two sworn shields of Maegor to the NW, when they ran away from the madcap to support the good cause. He did not want turncloaks. Just think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 17 hours ago, Davjos said: also every character likes them which makes them likeable to the reader. This is an illusion that is used pretty often in the books. But readers need to be smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 16 hours ago, Annalee said: I love Barristan Selmy. It's never too late for an old man to realize his mistake and this one did. He travels halfway across the world to find a ruler who is worthy of serving and found her. I don't have an opinion on Arthur Dayne. Right I applaud the recognition of his mistakes, but as Stannis would say that doesn't wash out the past. I enjoy him as a POV character but don't like him at all for what he allowed to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 Yeah, I always felt that Jaime, at least while under Aerys was the only truly honorable and selfless Kingsguard, sacrificing his "honor", reputation, and gambling his life, so he can save the innocents. (Did he have secondary reasons, sure), but the fact reamins that Jaime chose the greater good, over his "honor" and reputation, as opposed to all the other Kingsguard, who chose evil to save their "honor" and reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 "So many vows … they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other." Jaime sums it up nicely (ACOK 55, Catelyn VII). What do you do when two of the oaths that you've sworn conflict with each other? Does the newer oath take precedence over the older one? Does duty to a lord or King take precedence over duty to the smallfolk? Did medieval societies have a law or tradition about that sort of thing? If not, then people just had to make some tough choices. Selmy may may not always have done the right thing, but he certainly tried to; and his overall track record is pretty good. Calling any of his actions "unforgivable" seems overly harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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